Incentives Not To Work

[BDKJMU]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 75172.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Link doesn't appear to be working now, but article makes case every time unemployment benefits are extended, it articficially props up the unemployment rate...

"The second way government assistance programs contribute to long-term unemployment is by providing an incentive, and the means, not to work. Each unemployed person has a 'reservation wage'—the minimum wage he or she insists on getting before accepting a job. Unemployment insurance and other social assistance programs increase [the] reservation wage, causing an unemployed person to remain unemployed longer."

Any guess who wrote that? Milton Friedman, perhaps. Simon Legree? Sorry.

Full credit goes to Lawrence H. Summers, the current White House economic adviser,....."

[BDKJMU]

If I get laid off and didn't have unemployment, I'd take almost any job I could get. If I had a choice between working for say $10-$12 an hr (which would be a fraction of what I'm getting now), about $300-400 a week after taxes, vs getting $300-$400 a week tax free in unemployment bennies (I've heard of some high wage earners in some states getting up to $650 a week), fu*k it, I'm taking the unemployment, enjoying my time off courtesy of the rest of the tax paying suckers, and wouldn't start to look for work till the unemployment was getting within a month or 2 of running out.

What does the Donk Congress just do- passes an extension of unemployment bennies up to 99 weeks
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04 ... -benefits/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Congratulations Donks, you just added another $18 billion to the deficit while artificially propping up the unemployment rate for longer, meaning you'll lose a few more seats in the fall. Keep shooting yourselves in the foot.

[oldsloguy]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 75172.html
Link doesn't appear to be working now, but article makes case every time unemployment benefits are extended, it articficially props up the unemployment rate...

"The second way government assistance programs contribute to long-term unemployment is by providing an incentive, and the means, not to work. Each unemployed person has a 'reservation wage'—the minimum wage he or she insists on getting before accepting a job. Unemployment insurance and other social assistance programs increase [the] reservation wage, causing an unemployed person to remain unemployed longer."

Any guess who wrote that? Milton Friedman, perhaps. Simon Legree? Sorry.

Full credit goes to Lawrence H. Summers, the current White House economic adviser,....."

Well, BDK, I was going to post a thread about this, but I think you have a good spot for it.

Last week, I was paired with a guy at our local golf course. He told me that he was just laid off from Nummi in Fremont CA after being employed there for 19 years. Nummi was the only UAW plant in the US operated by Toyota. At first I was a little sympathetic to his plight, that was until he informed me that he was not going to even start looking for a job for a couple of years. He was tired of working and was going to “kick back” for a while. He received a $55,000 severance package and will get full unemployment benefits for 108 weeks. And he was miffed because some of the guys he worked with would receive over 150 weeks of unemployment benefits. Silly me, I thought unemployment benefits were for 13 weeks and sometimes extended to 26. WOW.

[Skjellyfetti]

So... because your golfing buddy abuses the system... folks that are out of work, trying to find work... shouldn't get assistance to get over the hump? I disagree.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Jelly it is funny how you on the one side and indeed some of the conservatives see what you want to instead of what one is actually saying. Old SLO said he was paired with a guy, not that he was playing with a buddy and judging by the fact that he didn't know the fella's story it would seem to point to the fact that he didn't know him. He then said that the fella was getting 2 yrs. and 1 month of assistance. He did not say a thing about being against helping those that need the help but that the help may be a little overboard. Do you disagree with that?

[oldsloguy]

So... because your golfing buddy abuses the system... folks that are out of work, trying to find work... shouldn't get assistance to get over the hump? I disagree.

Jelly,
Where did you get the idea that he was abusing the system? That is the system! He didn’t didn’t do anything illegal, underhanded or shady, that is just what he was offered and he took it! BTW, he is not the only person I’ve met that runs his unemployment benefits to the max. Tell me about anytime you have turned down what has been offered to you, maybe someone has offer you $20/hr and you said, ah nah, $15 is all I'll take, or maybe someone offered you $500.000 for a house you are selling and you said, oh no no, way to much, just make it $350,000. Give me a break, you can't be older than about 20 y.o. if you think that most people will turn down money that is offered to them. I'm sure you can find a rare individual that will do that, but not most.

[oldsloguy]

Jelly it is funny how you on the one side and indeed some of the conservatives see what you want to instead of what one is actually saying. Old SLO said he was paired with a guy, not that he was playing with a buddy and judging by the fact that he didn't know the fella's story it would seem to point to the fact that he didn't know him. He then said that the fella was getting 2 yrs. and 1 month of assistance. He did not say a thing about being against helping those that need the help but that the help may be a little overboard. Do you disagree with that?

You are exactly right Ursus. For people who “See what they believe”, a favorite tactic is to put words in your mouth, not what you said, and then attack the words of their invented “straw man”. BTW, you are absolutely correct, the guy was a single who was paired with my wife and myself.

[Skjellyfetti]

Jelly,
Where did you get the idea that he was abusing the system? That is the system! He didn’t didn’t do anything illegal, underhanded or shady, that is just what he was offered and he took it! BTW, he is not the only person I’ve met that runs his unemployment benefits to the max.

Maybe it varies by locations... but, I'm almost positive you have to be actively seeking employment to receive unemployment benefits. You can't just plan to "kick back for awhile" like your example. If you do that... you're abusing the system... plain and simple. You're stealing from tax payers. In order to do what the golfing dude is doing you may even have to lie filling out forms or answering questions over the phone about whether you are actively seeking employment.

Your golfing acquaintance is not only abusing the system... he's likely committing welfare fraud if his story is as you say.

Tell me about anytime you have turned down what has been offered to you, maybe someone has offer yo $20/hr and you said, ah nah, $15 is all I'll take, or maybe someone offered you $500.000 for a house you are selling and you said, oh no no, way to much, just make it $350,000.

Your analogies don't work because of the "actively seeking employment" stipulation I noted above. If someone offers me $20 an hour with a stipulation I don't agree to follow through on... and he offers me $15 dollars an hour minus whatever the tie-up was.... sounds fair to me.

[AZGrizFan]

So... because your golfing buddy abuses the system... folks that are out of work, trying to find work... shouldn't get assistance to get over the hump? I disagree.

How can the get over the hump when the gov't keeps making it bigger?

[Skjellyfetti]

So... because your golfing buddy abuses the system... folks that are out of work, trying to find work... shouldn't get assistance to get over the hump? I disagree.

How can the get over the hump when the gov't keeps making it bigger?

The hump being "inability to find a job"

[AZGrizFan]

How can the get over the hump when the gov't keeps making it bigger?

The hump being "inability to find a job"

Again, if the government KEEPS providing incentive NOT to seek work, why would they be surprised when the unemployment rate remains higher than expected?

[Skjellyfetti]

The hump being "inability to find a job"

Again, if the government KEEPS providing incentive NOT to seek work, why would they be surprised when the unemployment rate remains higher than expected?

There is no incentive NOT to seek work.

You have to ACTIVELY SEEK WORK to receive unemployment...

Granted, some people will cheat the system... but, they're low life scum.

[oldsloguy]

You have to ACTIVELY SEEK WORK to receive unemployment.

Well Jelly, My wife and are going to be gone for a week or so and I don’t have time now, but when I return I’ll resurrect this thread and post the story of my mother!!!

[Ibanez]

So... because your golfing buddy abuses the system... folks that are out of work, trying to find work... shouldn't get assistance to get over the hump? I disagree.

People that are actively trying to find work and s ustain thier life off of unemployment are not the problem. They are using unemployment the way it is supposed to used. The problem, as you are well aware, are those that abuse the privelage. It is a Privelage to live in a country that will PAY YOU until you get your feet on the ground. It is disturbing and sickening that there are people with so little pride in themselves, that they would suckle at the government teet (directly contributing to the debt they most likely don't care about).

This is somewhat related. I know a couple, they have 2 kids. Both are college graduates. The man is a pussy. He has no backbone and gets fired (he refused to get a better job and fight for his due income). The mother doesn't work and blows money like the USA Government. Now, both are unemployed (and underemployed) living in a house that was way beyond thier means the day they signed the loan. They've drained the 401(k), his parents stopped helping (mind you, these people are in thier 40's) and for 8 months NEITHER of them looked for work. The man took a job at Fed Ex and quit and the mother finally decided to get back into teaching. During the eight months, they'd bitch about money, the gov't, blacks, and then go buy $150 dresses, stainless steel appliances and move into a house with a rent that was more than the mortgage they had. I think they dumped the house in a short sale. These people felt they were entilted to welfare b/c they paid into it. THAT'S NOT THE POINT! THAT'S NOT THE POINT! THE POINT OF UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS IS TO HELP YOU GET BY WHILE YOUR FUCKING LOOKING FOR EMPLOYMENT! $11.00 SHOVELLING COW MANURE IS BETTER THAN $0.00/HR SITTING ON YOUTUBE AND TOUCHING YOUR NUTS!

This is why I'm not a people person.

[BDKJMU]

Couldn't pull up the article last night. Link now works. More excerps from it.

"...Mr. Summers is merely reflecting what numerous economic studies have shown. Alan Reynolds of the Cato Institute has found that the average unemployment episode rose from 10 weeks before the recession to 19 weeks after Congress twice previously extended jobless benefits—to 79 from 26 weeks. Even as initial unemployment claims have fallen in recent months, the length of unemployment has risen. Mr. Reynolds estimates that the extensions of unemployment insurance and other federal policies have raised the official jobless rate by nearly two percentage points.

Or consider the Brookings Institution, whose panel on economic activity reported this March that jobless insurance extensions "correspond to between 0.7 and 1.8 percentage points of the 5.5 percentage point increase in the unemployment rate witnessed in the current recession."

Or perhaps the Senate should listen to another Obama Administration economist, Alan Krueger of the Treasury Department, who concluded in a 2008 study that "job search increases sharply in the weeks prior to benefit exhaustion." In other words, many unemployed workers don't start seriously looking for a job until they are about to lose their benefits.

And, sure enough, the share of unemployed workers who don't have a job for more than 26 weeks has steadily increased, reaching a record 44.1% in March. The average spell of unemployment is now 31 weeks, even though the economy is once again creating more new jobs than it is losing. Democrats are slowly converting unemployment insurance into a welfare program...."

Bottom line is if the Donk Congress hadn't kept increasing unemployment to a ridiculous 99 weeks, the unemployment would likely be between 8-9% as opposed to the 9.7% we have now, which would actually be beneficial to the donks in Congress.

[OL FU]

There should be no argument that extended unemployment payments prolongs unemployment. Whether we should do it or not is another issue.

Contrary to what most people might think my opinion would be, I support it. But continued job increases in the next few months should probably put an end to any further extensions.

[BDKJMU]

There should be no argument that extended unemployment payments prolongs unemployment. Whether we should do it or not is another issue.

Contrary to what most people might think my opinion would be, I support it. But continued job increases in the next few months should probably put an end to any further extensions.

I support it too- for up to maybe 26 weeks. 99 is friggin ridiculous.

I doubt the job increases will be enough for the donk Congress to stop extending the unemployment past the recent extension which I believe goes through June. You have 600k temp workers that the census has hired that will be let go in the next couple of months. Plus jobless claims have risen the last 2 weeks, this past weeks the opposite of what analysts predicted:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04 ... me-claims/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.housingwatch.com/2010/04/15/ ... ent-rises/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ASUG8]

I wonder if we aren't experiencing a "wage correction" akin to the real estate correction?

Like BDKJMU says, I establish my price to work based on past compensation. If I take a job at $10/hr, it precludes me from looking for work at my internally established market rate so I continue to get unemployment benefits. Assuming I can't find a job at my price to work before my unemployment runs out I end up settling for a job at less than my price to work. According to the government I'm one less unemployed person happily contributing to the tax base, but I'm very underemployed based on my self-imposed price to work. The unemployment rate goes down, but there are a lot of folks toiling away at jobs that they once thought were beneath them.

Unfortunately, I know several people who fall directly into this category - they've effectively lost the equivalent of 5-10 years of promotions or annual increases due to jobs lost.

[Grizalltheway]

So... because your golfing buddy abuses the system... folks that are out of work, trying to find work... shouldn't get assistance to get over the hump? I disagree.

People that are actively trying to find work and s ustain thier life off of unemployment are not the problem. They are using unemployment the way it is supposed to used. The problem, as you are well aware, are those that abuse the privelage. It is a Privelage to live in a country that will PAY YOU until you get your feet on the ground. It is disturbing and sickening that there are people with so little pride in themselves, that they would suckle at the government teet (directly contributing to the debt they most likely don't care about).

This is somewhat related. I know a couple, they have 2 kids. Both are college graduates. The man is a pussy. He has no backbone and gets fired (he refused to get a better job and fight for his due income). The mother doesn't work and blows money like the USA Government. Now, both are unemployed (and underemployed) living in a house that was way beyond thier means the day they signed the loan. They've drained the 401(k), his parents stopped helping (mind you, these people are in thier 40's) and for 8 months NEITHER of them looked for work. The man took a job at Fed Ex and quit and the mother finally decided to get back into teaching. During the eight months, they'd bitch about money, the gov't, blacks, and then go buy $150 dresses, stainless steel appliances and move into a house with a rent that was more than the mortgage they had. I think they dumped the house in a short sale. These people felt they were entilted to welfare b/c they paid into it. THAT'S NOT THE POINT! THAT'S NOT THE POINT! THE POINT OF UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS IS TO HELP YOU GET BY WHILE YOUR FUCKING LOOKING FOR EMPLOYMENT! $11.00 SHOVELLING COW MANURE IS BETTER THAN $0.00/HR SITTING ON YOUTUBE AND TOUCHING YOUR NUTS!

This is why I'm not a people person.

Posts like this can't be good for one's blood pressure.

[Appaholic]

Jelly,
Where did you get the idea that he was abusing the system? That is the system! He didn’t didn’t do anything illegal, underhanded or shady, that is just what he was offered and he took it! BTW, he is not the only person I’ve met that runs his unemployment benefits to the max.

Maybe it varies by locations... but, I'm almost positive you have to be actively seeking employment to receive unemployment benefits. You can't just plan to "kick back for awhile" like your example. If you do that... you're abusing the system... plain and simple. You're stealing from tax payers. In order to do what the golfing dude is doing you may even have to lie filling out forms or answering questions over the phone about whether you are actively seeking employment.

Your golfing acquaintance is not only abusing the system... he's likely committing welfare fraud if his story is as you say.

Tell me about anytime you have turned down what has been offered to you, maybe someone has offer yo $20/hr and you said, ah nah, $15 is all I'll take, or maybe someone offered you $500.000 for a house you are selling and you said, oh no no, way to much, just make it $350,000.

Your analogies don't work because of the "actively seeking employment" stipulation I noted above. If someone offers me $20 an hour with a stipulation I don't agree to follow through on... and he offers me $15 dollars an hour minus whatever the tie-up was.... sounds fair to me.

Yep.....& my unemployed wife will be "actively seeking employment" while were on vacation in Arizona next month & logging in once a week to file for her unemployment benefits courtesy of this extension....sorry, but she's not taking a shit job paying $10/hr which will lower her benefit amount if needed in the future since it's based on your pay history while she can collect $490 per week. If that offends some people, tough shit. She's paid into the system for 30 years without ever receiving one fokking penny in unemployment. We have no children yet pay the same amount of taxes to support schools as a family with 10 kids without ever receiving a childcare tax credit. Also, just sent a check to IRS for $1785 yesterday so I just wrote my Senator (Burr) yesterday to inform him that he has lost my vote this year since he voted NAY on this extension. Sure, the extension is an additional $18bil, but it provides more of a "stimulus", especially in small local economies, than any thing else the government has tried.....

[clenz]

Again, if the government KEEPS providing incentive NOT to seek work, why would they be surprised when the unemployment rate remains higher than expected?

There is no incentive NOT to seek work.

You have to ACTIVELY SEEK WORK to receive unemployment...

Granted, some people will cheat the system... but, they're low life scum.

It doesn't take much to be "actively seeking employment".


My sister, who I really don't consider a sister (really long story there, but she has been more or less disowned by the family) has been drawing unemployment for over a year. She "actively seeks employment" by filling out applications for jobs she know she won't gets because she isn't qualified for. It isn't that hard to abuse the system.

[GannonFan]

There is no incentive NOT to seek work.

You have to ACTIVELY SEEK WORK to receive unemployment...

Granted, some people will cheat the system... but, they're low life scum.

It doesn't take much to be "actively seeking employment".


My sister, who I really don't consider a sister (really long story there, but she has been more or less disowned by the family) has been drawing unemployment for over a year. She "actively seeks employment" by filling out applications for jobs she know she won't gets because she isn't qualified for. It isn't that hard to abuse the system.

Agreed - Sk, I don't think you have any knowledge of what you're talking about here. The criteria in PA for having to "actively seek work" is to put a check in a check box saying that you are looking for work. You do that once every two weeks to claim 2 weeks worth of benefits. That's it - no audit trail, no need to submit copies of jobs you've applied to or write-ups of what networking activities you've done. It's not hard to imagine that people could scam the system if they want to.

[clenz]

It doesn't take much to be "actively seeking employment".


My sister, who I really don't consider a sister (really long story there, but she has been more or less disowned by the family) has been drawing unemployment for over a year. She "actively seeks employment" by filling out applications for jobs she know she won't gets because she isn't qualified for. It isn't that hard to abuse the system.

Agreed - Sk, I don't think you have any knowledge of what you're talking about here. The criteria in PA for having to "actively seek work" is to put a check in a check box saying that you are looking for work. You do that once every two weeks to claim 2 weeks worth of benefits. That's it - no audit trail, no need to submit copies of jobs you've applied to or write-ups of what networking activities you've done. It's not hard to imagine that people could scam the system if they want to.

Yep. My sister fills out one application every month or two, and that is only in case she has to prove she filled them out.

[native]

Maybe it varies by locations... but, I'm almost positive you have to be actively seeking employment to receive unemployment benefits. You can't just plan to "kick back for awhile" like your example. If you do that... you're abusing the system... plain and simple. You're stealing from tax payers. In order to do what the golfing dude is doing you may even have to lie filling out forms or answering questions over the phone about whether you are actively seeking employment.

Your golfing acquaintance is not only abusing the system... he's likely committing welfare fraud if his story is as you say.



Your analogies don't work because of the "actively seeking employment" stipulation I noted above. If someone offers me $20 an hour with a stipulation I don't agree to follow through on... and he offers me $15 dollars an hour minus whatever the tie-up was.... sounds fair to me.

Yep.....& my unemployed wife will be "actively seeking employment" while were on vacation in Arizona next month & logging in once a week to file for her unemployment benefits courtesy of this extension....sorry, but she's not taking a **** job paying $10/hr which will lower her benefit amount if needed in the future since it's based on your pay history while she can collect $490 per week. If that offends some people, tough ****. She's paid into the system for 30 years without ever receiving one fokking penny in unemployment. We have no children yet pay the same amount of taxes to support schools as a family with 10 kids without ever receiving a childcare tax credit. Also, just sent a check to IRS for $1785 yesterday so I just wrote my Senator (Burr) yesterday to inform him that he has lost my vote this year since he voted NAY on this extension. Sure, the extension is an additional $18bil, but it provides more of a "stimulus", especially in small local economies, than any thing else the government has tried.....

And that is the difference between 4% unemployment and lower public debt in a free economy and 10% unemployment with higher public debt in a European-socialist-style economy. As Appy says, tough sh!t.

Good for Appaholic! It took balls to tell the truth.

OBVIOUSLY, we are ALL ENTITLED... to owe the Chinese and be slaves for the next century.

[Appaholic]

It doesn't take much to be "actively seeking employment".


My sister, who I really don't consider a sister (really long story there, but she has been more or less disowned by the family) has been drawing unemployment for over a year. She "actively seeks employment" by filling out applications for jobs she know she won't gets because she isn't qualified for. It isn't that hard to abuse the system.

Agreed - Sk, I don't think you have any knowledge of what you're talking about here. The criteria in PA for having to "actively seek work" is to put a check in a check box saying that you are looking for work. You do that once every two weeks to claim 2 weeks worth of benefits.

Well, we run a little tighter ship here in NC. My wife has to check a box EVERY week to claim 1 week of benefits.

"Every 2 weeks"...pffft...slackers....