Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Political discussions
Post Reply
User avatar
travelinman67
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 9884
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:51 pm
I am a fan of: Portland State Vikings
A.K.A.: Modern Man
Location: Where the 1st Amendment still exists: CS.com

Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by travelinman67 »

Discussion below article

Texas city revives paddling as it takes a swat at misbehavior

By Michael Birnbaum
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 16, 2010

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05964.html
TEMPLE, TEX. -- In an era when students talk back to teachers, skip class and wear ever-more-risque clothing to school, one central Texas city has hit upon a deceptively simple solution: Bring back the paddle.

Most school districts across the country banned paddling of students long ago. Texas sat that trend out. Nearly a quarter of the estimated 225,000 students who received corporal punishment nationwide in 2006, the latest figures available, were from the Lone Star State.

But even by Texas standards, Temple is unusual. The city, a compact railroad hub of 60,000 people, banned the practice and then revived it at the demand of parents who longed for the orderly schools of yesteryear. Without paddling, "there were no consequences for kids," said Steve Wright, who runs a construction business and is Temple's school board president.

Since paddling was brought back to the city's 14 schools by a unanimous board vote in May, behavior at Temple's single high school has changed dramatically, Wright said, even though only one student in the school system has been paddled.

"The discipline problem is much better than it's been in years," Wright said, something he attributed to the new punishment and to other discipline programs schools are trying. Residents of the city's comfortable homes, most of which sport neighborly, worn chairs out front, praise the change.

"There are times when maybe a good crack might not be a bad idea," said Robert Pippin, a custom home builder who sports a goatee and cowboy boots. His son graduated from Temple schools several years ago.

Corporal punishment remains legal in 20 states, mostly in the South, but its use is diminishing. Ohio ended it last year, and a movement for a federal ban is afoot. A House subcommittee held a hearing on the practice Thursday, and its chairman, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.), is gearing up for a push to end the practice once and for all. She plans to introduce legislation within weeks.

"When you look that the federal government has outlawed physical punishment in prisons, I think the time has come that we should do it in schools," she said.

[...blah, blah, blah...]
/rant

This topic came up yesterday on many radio and news shows, and I was fascinated by the responses. Since corporal punishment in schools has been on the decline (if not banned) for the past 40 years, I question whether anyone under the age of 40 can have an informed opinion on this subject, yet that didn't seem to inhibited many youthful callers who expressed their "opinions". Thankfully, two of the shows I listened to had hosts who promptly dismissed the younger respondents.
One gentleman called in, identifying himself as 56 years, then stated he had been paddled once in grade school and the incident had "ruined his life". When questioned, he elaborated that he had difficulties with holding jobs, relationships, anger management, and general depression. Pressed further, the man admitted to being heavily medicated, and took tranquilizers every morning to get through the day. Tongue-biting followed the terminated call.

Akin to politics, this issue similarly follows our country's current trend: Extremists on either sides, the "fix-everything-with-counseling-and-pop-psychology" tree huggers on one side, and the trailer park trash "a-beatin'll-fix-anything" venters on the other, with 1/3 of the non-committals in the middle displaying apathy and more worried about the last episode of "Lost".

More germaine; is there a problem that needs to be "fixed".

This week, in a CA central valley town north of Sacramento, an "Amber Alert" was issued over the alleged abduction of a 14 year old girl from in front of her school as she stood waiting to go in Monday morning. The suspects (4) were driving a brown sedan. This alert went out over highway signs throughout the state, as an emergency broadcast on all radio and T.V. stations, and every public agency is notified and participates in the search.
The girl was Elvia Flores.
When the alert was issued, I commented to the person with me that "she ran off with her boyfriend". The person, a friend's wife, was upset that I would be so dismissive and lectured me on my insensitivity. In my defense, I remarked that the original intent of the Amber Alerts has been nullified by it's abuse, principally to pursue child custody dispute "abductions" or "child runs off with friend" cases: And in most CA cases, the participants are hispanic (which I'll discuss later).

As is the case with many of these situations, the girl turned up a couple of days later, 63 miles away, told a lie to Law Enforcement that found her, when cornered with the lie, made up another lie, and once cornered again, finally came clean and admitted to "cutting school" to be with her boyfriend.

http://cbs13.com/breakingnews/elvia.flo ... 38633.html

The BF, of course, has been arrested, and the girl "may be charged with filing a false report".

In early Amber Alert cases, the associated "search" and coordination costs easily ran in the millions per day. Considering the hundreds of local L.E. agencies who mobilize staff to pursue the search, not including all the media and State Office of Emergency Services resources involved. Currently, IMHO, having seen most of the Amber Alerts fizzle into "non-abductions", most L.E. agencies take the alerts "with a grain of salt", and while attentive to them, few (excepting the primary agency) will allocate any additional resources.

But back to the issue...

...why, knowing about the Amber Alerts and the repercussions, would a child disregard community laws and commit this offense, just to "cut school and be with her boyfriend"...

...and why would her 18 yr old boyfriend allow this to occur (yes...I know...ass. But he could have called a friend or made an anonymous call to L.E. saying she was with friends and halted the Amber Alert)?

Lack of accountability.

For the past 40 years, if a child misbehaves, and an adult threatens to "spank" or punish a child, it's not uncommon for the child to reply that they'll call the cops and report the adult for child abuse (and that's more real than I have time to verify on this board). Counselors, child-psychologists, no'er-do-well liberal politicians, and pop-culture Icons (Oprahs), have villified corporal punishment, and in fact, any form of "punishment" as barbaric, asserting every attitude "ailment" can be properly resolved through empathetic guidance and intellectual analysis.

This "lack of accountability" problem that has developed stems from the social work/psychiatric community's "one size fits all" approach in dealing with people: Analyze, categorize, apply fix.

Yet in doing so, while retaining "stick and carrot" methods, they remove one of the tools from their bag of tricks: The "attention getter" (corporal punishment).

Corporal punishment is not a means to "inflict pain" as it is a means to communicate the message that inflictor is displeased to an "extreme" level and the behavior inciting the punishment was "extreme" and cannot be repeated.

When dealing with "undeveloped" people (children, white trash, entitlers, GSU fans, jellyfish...) words and concepts often cannot convey (are received) with their intended purpose. Think of the infant learning about "hot". Words, explanations, even self-sacrificing demonstrations, do not illustrate the concept which is often only learned when the infant accidentally touches something hot and feels the pain. Similarly, extreme misbehavior, resulting in foreseeable significant cost to society (including potential death to the people who risk their lives responding to the misbehavior), cannot be conveyed to the ego-centric (undeveloped) individual.

Until (unless), there is a "shock" stimuli, "awakening" the undeveloped person's senses, NO message will be received, and no communication can occur.

Hence, the necessity of utilizing corporal punishment, IN SOME CASES, becomes necessary to enable communication.
"That is how government works - we tell you what you can do today."
- EPA Kommissar Gina McCarthy
User avatar
Chizzang
Level5
Level5
Posts: 19274
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:36 am
I am a fan of: Deflate Gate
A.K.A.: The Quasar Kid
Location: Palermo Italy

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by Chizzang »

:sleep: Yawn... This was covered in great detail in 1764 by Cesare Beccaria

(There is no new ground covered here) go back to whatever you were doing
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
User avatar
Pwns
Level4
Level4
Posts: 7344
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Friggin' Southern
A.K.A.: FCS_pwns_FBS (AGS)

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by Pwns »

Is it just a coincidence that as corporal punishment has been disappearing that ADD has been going up?
Celebrate Diversity.*
*of appearance only. Restrictions apply.
∞∞∞
Level5
Level5
Posts: 12373
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:30 am

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by ∞∞∞ »

I'm completely against it. When I lived in Lebanon, the public school I went to had corporal punishments and even though my parents slapped me once in a while when I was young for misbehaving, it's completely different coming from relative strangers. It's one of those things that you remember for a long time, and not necessarily in a good way. It depends on the kid I guess. Some will take it better than others, but I wouldn't take my chance traumatizing anybody for the rest of their life.

I ended up pulling the fire alarm like a week into school which got me another spanking by those stupid wooden rulers before my parents came, but I did get expelled. I ended up at a private American school in Beirut (Ras Beirut Elementary) who didn't have corporal punishment and it was a great experience. No recess, and timeouts from other fun activities was enough to deter me from further bad behaviors.
User avatar
travelinman67
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 9884
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:51 pm
I am a fan of: Portland State Vikings
A.K.A.: Modern Man
Location: Where the 1st Amendment still exists: CS.com

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by travelinman67 »

Chizzang wrote::sleep: Yawn... This was covered in great detail in 1764 by Cesare Beccaria

(There is no new ground covered here) go back to whatever you were doing
Not quite.

Beccaria's focus was the use of torture during incarceration, not utilization of corporal punishment during childhood development. Further, his emphasis was on the immediacy of (non-capital) punishment, rather than nature of punishment.

Every major philosopher's theory who's taken an anti-corporal punishment position as it pertains to early childhood development, from Locke to Freud, has had those theories disproven.

Look it up, Hippie...

...or, go back to sleep... :lol:
"That is how government works - we tell you what you can do today."
- EPA Kommissar Gina McCarthy
JayJ79
Level3
Level3
Posts: 4253
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:52 pm
I am a fan of: myself

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by JayJ79 »

Good for them!

Though I'm probably not knowledgable enough on this topic, since I actually behaved in school and can't vouch for the aftereffects of any sort of punishment.

Of course, ideally, schools wouldn't have to punish kids, since their parents would instill proper behavior in them (and all schools would have to do would be to inform the parents of their kids misbehavior, and the parents would properly discipline them). But too many parents these days don't instill any such proper behavior in their kids, nor do they discipline them at all. :ohno:
User avatar
ALPHAGRIZ1
Level5
Level5
Posts: 16077
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:26 am
I am a fan of: 1995 Montana Griz
A.K.A.: Fuck Off
Location: America: and having my rights violated on a daily basis

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by ALPHAGRIZ1 »

It definitely deters kids from misbehaving.

We had 3 teachers that got physical as hell with students doing dumb sh*it in class.

Mr Rosenleaf - Woodshop teacher - This guy would hit you so hard on the ass with his home made paddle your scalp would burn. Brutal but NOBODY ever took a swat from him and repeated their behavior.

Mr Nebel - Football coach/health teacher - Grab me by the hair and drug me out into the hall where I was slammed into a locker for lipping off in his class. I pushed him away for treating me like that and he slapped me in the face with a closed fist giving me a bloody nose. I never messed up again in his class room, I always did it in another room I knew there wouldnt be any repercussions.

Mr Smith - History teacher - This guy whipped kids with a paddle and slammed them into walls quite often. My friend got punched in the face by this guy in the hall after school. You didnt mess around in this guys class. 11 years after I got out of school he was fired for assaulting a kid.(who deserved everything he got)

I think its a good thing and since most parents are complete pussies, somebody needs to discipline their kids.
Image

ALPHAGRIZ1 - Now available in internet black

The flat earth society has members all around the globe
User avatar
Chizzang
Level5
Level5
Posts: 19274
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:36 am
I am a fan of: Deflate Gate
A.K.A.: The Quasar Kid
Location: Palermo Italy

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by Chizzang »

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:It definitely deters kids from misbehaving.

We had 3 teachers that got physical as hell with students doing dumb sh*it in class.

Mr Rosenleaf - Woodshop teacher - This guy would hit you so hard on the ass with his home made paddle your scalp would burn. Brutal but NOBODY ever took a swat from him and repeated their behavior.

Mr Nebel - Football coach/health teacher - Grab me by the hair and drug me out into the hall where I was slammed into a locker for lipping off in his class. I pushed him away for treating me like that and he slapped me in the face with a closed fist giving me a bloody nose. I never messed up again in his class room, I always did it in another room I knew there wouldnt be any repercussions.

Mr Smith - History teacher - This guy whipped kids with a paddle and slammed them into walls quite often. My friend got punched in the face by this guy in the hall after school. You didnt mess around in this guys class. 11 years after I got out of school he was fired for assaulting a kid.(who deserved everything he got)

I think its a good thing and since most parents are complete pussies, somebody needs to discipline their kids.
Jeezus no wonder why you're so fucked up... :rofl:
You are without a doubt:
The softest slowest guy I've ever seen who still manages to think (somehow) that he's a Bad Ass
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
User avatar
native
Level4
Level4
Posts: 5635
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:21 am
I am a fan of: Weber State
Location: On the road from Cibola

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by native »

Chizzang wrote:
ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:It definitely deters kids from misbehaving.

We had 3 teachers that got physical as hell with students doing dumb sh*it in class.

Mr Rosenleaf - Woodshop teacher - This guy would hit you so hard on the ass with his home made paddle your scalp would burn. Brutal but NOBODY ever took a swat from him and repeated their behavior.

Mr Nebel - Football coach/health teacher - Grab me by the hair and drug me out into the hall where I was slammed into a locker for lipping off in his class. I pushed him away for treating me like that and he slapped me in the face with a closed fist giving me a bloody nose. I never messed up again in his class room, I always did it in another room I knew there wouldnt be any repercussions.

Mr Smith - History teacher - This guy whipped kids with a paddle and slammed them into walls quite often. My friend got punched in the face by this guy in the hall after school. You didnt mess around in this guys class. 11 years after I got out of school he was fired for assaulting a kid.(who deserved everything he got)

I think its a good thing and since most parents are complete pussies, somebody needs to discipline their kids.
Jeezus no wonder why you're so **** up... :rofl:
You are without a doubt:
The softest slowest guy I've ever seen who still manages to think (somehow) that he's a Bad Ass
You were not properly disciplined when you were a child, were you Cleets?
Proud Prince of Purple Pomposity
Image
Image
Image
YT is not a communist. He's just a ...young pup.
houndawg
Level5
Level5
Posts: 25092
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:14 pm
I am a fan of: SIU
A.K.A.: houndawg
Location: Egypt

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by houndawg »

:jack: I got paddled on at least a weekly basis for about half of elementary school. Had little effect one way or the other. Cost of doing business.
You matter. Unless you multiply yourself by c squared. Then you energy.


"I really love America. I just don't know how to get there anymore."John Prine
User avatar
travelinman67
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 9884
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:51 pm
I am a fan of: Portland State Vikings
A.K.A.: Modern Man
Location: Where the 1st Amendment still exists: CS.com

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by travelinman67 »

houndawg wrote::jack: I got paddled on at least a weekly basis for about half of elementary school. Had little effect one way or the other. Cost of doing business.
Bingo :thumb:
"That is how government works - we tell you what you can do today."
- EPA Kommissar Gina McCarthy
User avatar
Chizzang
Level5
Level5
Posts: 19274
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:36 am
I am a fan of: Deflate Gate
A.K.A.: The Quasar Kid
Location: Palermo Italy

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by Chizzang »

native wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Jeezus no wonder why you're so **** up... :rofl:
You are without a doubt:
The softest slowest guy I've ever seen who still manages to think (somehow) that he's a Bad Ass
You were not properly disciplined when you were a child, were you Cleets?
My father was in the military through my entire childhood... so wrong guess native
and frankly I don't really care how people raise their children or what cities or towns or the federal government decides to do as far as punishment

(for all the obvious reasons)
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
User avatar
Chizzang
Level5
Level5
Posts: 19274
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:36 am
I am a fan of: Deflate Gate
A.K.A.: The Quasar Kid
Location: Palermo Italy

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by Chizzang »

travelinman67 wrote: Not quite.

Beccaria's focus was the use of torture during incarceration, not utilization of corporal punishment during childhood development. Further, his emphasis was on the immediacy of (non-capital) punishment, rather than nature of punishment.

Every major philosopher's theory who's taken an anti-corporal punishment position as it pertains to early childhood development, from Locke to Freud, has had those theories disproven.

Look it up, Hippie...

...or, go back to sleep... :lol:
Thanks for the update T-man
Image
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
∞∞∞
Level5
Level5
Posts: 12373
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:30 am

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by ∞∞∞ »

For some of you that preach that the education system shouldn't take place of the parent, I don't see how believing the state should be able to punish kids physically isn't a hypocritical view. So mentally/religiously/socially it's not ok for the education system to replace parents, but physically it is? I mean, if criminals aren't physically punished for misbehaving while in prison, I don't get why it's ok to do it to kids?
User avatar
death dealer
Level3
Level3
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:49 am
I am a fan of: Appalachian Mud Squids
A.K.A.: Contaminated

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by death dealer »

Sounds great. Beat the hell out of them. :lol:
Dear lord... please allow this dangerous combination of hair spary, bat slobber, and D.O.T. four automatic transmission fluid to excite my mind, occupy my spirits, and enrage my body, provoking me to kick any man or woman in the back of the head regardless of what he or she has or has not done unto me. All my Best, Earlie Cuyler.
User avatar
93henfan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 56358
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:03 pm
Location: Slower Delaware

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by 93henfan »

The policy of my school district when I was attending was corporal punishment (paddling) unless the parents checked an opt-out on a form sent home with the student the first week of each year for signature. I would give the sheet to my parents each year and they would never check the opt-out box when they signed it. I recall my dad saying "you're not going to get in trouble anyway, so I'm not checking the box since it won't matter". Well, I finally did get in trouble enough times in 7th grade that the detentions built up and I finally got paddled. No biggie. It didn't ruin my life, and I was less of an asshole after that.

FYI, Delaware banned corporal punishment in all districts in 2003.
Delaware Football: 1889-2012; 2022-
User avatar
travelinman67
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 9884
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:51 pm
I am a fan of: Portland State Vikings
A.K.A.: Modern Man
Location: Where the 1st Amendment still exists: CS.com

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by travelinman67 »

∞∞∞ wrote:For some of you that preach that the education system shouldn't take place of the parent, I don't see how believing the state should be able to punish kids physically isn't a hypocritical view. So mentally/religiously/socially it's not ok for the education system to replace parents, but physically it is? I mean, if criminals aren't physically punished for misbehaving while in prison, I don't get why it's ok to do it to kids?
FYI, it's ok for guards to use lethal force against inmates in prison. An old friend of mine spent 12 years up in the tower on New Folsom and had to pull the trigger twice breaking up fights.
And if you don't believe inmates who misbehave receive physical punishment, you're naive. Most goes unreported because, as hdawg observed, they know that if they misbehave, there's a cost that accompanies that behavior. C'est la vie.

I don't mean to be so trite about this, but frankly, if you've never been in a physical fight (or the recepient of an ass-whuppin), you're missing an important life lesson.
"That is how government works - we tell you what you can do today."
- EPA Kommissar Gina McCarthy
User avatar
Benne
Level1
Level1
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:07 am
I am a fan of: SDSU & Montana
A.K.A.: benne

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by Benne »

Fuck it. I don't have to work on my interpersonal skills, I can just beat 'em if they piss me off. (please refer to the detention slips in the lounge.)
Ivytalk
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 26827
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:22 pm
I am a fan of: Salisbury University
Location: Republic of Western Sussex

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by Ivytalk »

Hell, I got popped on my ass a few times when I was in HS in Houston. No biggie.

Mainejeff, Jellybelly and GATW would've benefited from the same S&M. 8-)
“I’m tired and done.” — 89Hen 3/27/22.
User avatar
native
Level4
Level4
Posts: 5635
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:21 am
I am a fan of: Weber State
Location: On the road from Cibola

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by native »

Ivytalk wrote:Hell, I got popped on my ass a few times when I was in HS in Houston. No biggie.

Mainejeff, Jellybelly and GATW would've benefited from the same S&M. 8-)
QFT! :thumb: ...and Cleets. :nod:
Proud Prince of Purple Pomposity
Image
Image
Image
YT is not a communist. He's just a ...young pup.
houndawg
Level5
Level5
Posts: 25092
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:14 pm
I am a fan of: SIU
A.K.A.: houndawg
Location: Egypt

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by houndawg »

Living in Texas City should be enough punishment for any child. What a perfect shithole that place is.
You matter. Unless you multiply yourself by c squared. Then you energy.


"I really love America. I just don't know how to get there anymore."John Prine
User avatar
Chizzang
Level5
Level5
Posts: 19274
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:36 am
I am a fan of: Deflate Gate
A.K.A.: The Quasar Kid
Location: Palermo Italy

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by Chizzang »

native wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:Hell, I got popped on my ass a few times when I was in HS in Houston. No biggie.

Mainejeff, Jellybelly and GATW would've benefited from the same S&M. 8-)
QFT! :thumb: ...and Cleets. :nod:

I appreciate the man crush you have on me native... :kisswink:
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59959
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by AZGrizFan »

Chizzang wrote:
native wrote:
QFT! :thumb: ...and Cleets. :nod:

I appreciate the man crush you have on me native... :kisswink:
It's the freshly starched shirts. :nod:
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
Ivytalk
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 26827
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:22 pm
I am a fan of: Salisbury University
Location: Republic of Western Sussex

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by Ivytalk »

houndawg wrote:Living in Texas City should be enough punishment for any child. What a perfect shithole that place is.
Reminds you of Egypt, huh? :lol:
“I’m tired and done.” — 89Hen 3/27/22.
houndawg
Level5
Level5
Posts: 25092
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:14 pm
I am a fan of: SIU
A.K.A.: houndawg
Location: Egypt

Re: Texas City Reinstates Corporal Punishment

Post by houndawg »

Ivytalk wrote:
houndawg wrote:Living in Texas City should be enough punishment for any child. What a perfect shithole that place is.
Reminds you of Egypt, huh? :lol:
Not at all. :ohno:

Egypt roolz, dude.
You matter. Unless you multiply yourself by c squared. Then you energy.


"I really love America. I just don't know how to get there anymore."John Prine
Post Reply