Page 1 of 3
The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:13 pm
by kalm
Interesting centrist opinion on kleptocracy with the following statistic:
"Indeed, the wealth of the Wal-Mart founder's family in 2005 was estimated at about the same ($90 billion) as that of the bottom 40 percent of the U.S. population: 120 million people."
Think of socialism and fascism as the red herrings of this moment or, if you're an old time movie fan, as Hitchcockian MacGuffins -- in other words, riveting distractions. Conservatives and tea partiers fear invasive government regulation and excessive taxation, while railing against government takeovers -- even as corporate lobbyists write our public healthcare bills to favor private interests. Similarly, progressives rail against an emergent proto-fascist corps of private guns-for-hire, warrantless wiretapping, and the potential government-approved assassination of U.S. citizens, all sanctioned by a perpetual, and apparently open-ended, state of war.
Yet, if this is socialism, why are private health insurers the government's go-to guys for healthcare coverage? If this is fascism, why haven't the secret police rounded up tea partiers and progressive critics as well and sent them to the lager or the gulag?
Consider this: America is not now, nor has it often been, a hotbed of political radicalism. We have no substantial socialist or workers' party. (Unless you're deluded, please don't count the corporate-friendly "Democrat" party here.) We have no substantial fascist party. (Unless you're deluded, please don't count the cartoonish "tea partiers" here; these predominantly white, graying, and fairly affluent Americans seem most worried that the jackbooted thugs will be coming for them.)
...
From Each According to His Gullibility -- To Each According to His Greed
Never has the old adage my father used to repeat to me -- "the rich get richer and the poor poorer" -- seemed fresher or truer. If you want confirmation of just where we are today, for instance, consider this passage from a recent piece by Tony Judt:
In 2005, 21.2 percent of U.S. national income accrued to just 1 percent of earners. Contrast 1968, when the CEO of General Motors took home, in pay and benefits, about sixty-six times the amount paid to a typical GM worker. Today the CEO of Wal-Mart earns nine hundred times the wages of his average employee.
Indeed, the wealth of the Wal-Mart founder's family in 2005 was estimated at about the same ($90 billion) as that of the bottom 40 percent of the U.S. population: 120 million people.
Copyright 2010 William J. Astore
William J. Astore is a TomDispatch regular; he teaes History at the Pennsylvania College of Technology and served in the Air Force for 20 years, retiring as a lieutenant colonel. He may be reached at
wjastore@gmail.com.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/04/21-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:42 pm
by Chizzang
It's actually good for the country...

Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:49 pm
by AZGrizFan
Is making money illegal?
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:13 pm
by Baldy
kalm wrote:Interesting centrist opinion......
Um...
When the author writes for The Nation, HuffPoop, commondreams.org, tomdispatch.org, truthout, Mother Jones, and countless other radical left-wing blogs and rags, there ain't nothing "centrist" about his opinion at all.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:15 pm
by D1B
AZGrizFan wrote:Is making money illegal?
No. But it sucks that in order for some people to make their money, others must be in a permanent state of poverty.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:19 pm
by AZGrizFan
D1B wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:Is making money illegal?
No. But it sucks that in order for some people to make their money, others must be in a permanent state of poverty.
Those people 'in a permanent state of poverty' have absolutely NOTHING at risk. They also probably wouldn't have JOBS if it wasn't for Walmart since Walmart hires the absolute DREGS of society.

Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:20 pm
by AZGrizFan
Baldy wrote:kalm wrote:Interesting centrist opinion......
Um...
When the author writes for The Nation, HuffPoop, commondreams.org, tomdispatch.org, truthout, Mother Jones, and countless other radical left-wing blogs and rags, there ain't nothing "centrist" about his opinion at all.
Centrist to Kalm <> Centrist to the rest of the world.

Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:21 am
by kalm
Baldy wrote:kalm wrote:Interesting centrist opinion......
Um...
When the author writes for The Nation, HuffPoop, commondreams.org, tomdispatch.org, truthout, Mother Jones, and countless other radical left-wing blogs and rags, there ain't nothing "centrist" about his opinion at all.
I suggest you avoid reading my posted articles lest you get a case of the vapors.
(like you actually read them anyway.)

Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:24 am
by kalm
AZGrizFan wrote:Baldy wrote:
Um...
When the author writes for The Nation, HuffPoop, commondreams.org, tomdispatch.org, truthout, Mother Jones, and countless other radical left-wing blogs and rags, there ain't nothing "centrist" about his opinion at all.
Centrist to Kalm <> Centrist to the rest of the world.

He firmly plants himself between conservative and liberal - that's the whole point fo the article.
I don't know if the author himself is centrist or not, but I'm guessing that aren't too many career military officers that are liberal.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:25 am
by kalm
AZGrizFan wrote:Is making money illegal?
You are so amoral.

Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:50 am
by GannonFan
The rich will always get richer - it's not rocket science. They have more, so when they make the same percentage as those who have less, the gap between the two will continue to grow. Heck, the only time the gap shrinks is when the country goes into a major Depression, and that's not really something to aspire for. But while the gap grows, things do get better for everyone - there's no doubt that being poor or in poverty today is a far better situation than it's ever been in the history of this country, or even before this country. It's far from the lifestyle that Bill Gates or the Walton family lives, but it's far better than it was 20, 30, 50, or 100 years ago.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:36 am
by Chizzang
GannonFan wrote:The rich will always get richer - it's not rocket science. They have more, so when they make the same percentage as those who have less, the gap between the two will continue to grow. Heck, the only time the gap shrinks is when the country goes into a major Depression, and that's not really something to aspire for. But while the gap grows, things do get better for everyone - there's no doubt that being poor or in poverty today is a far better situation than it's ever been in the history of this country, or even before this country. It's far from the lifestyle that Bill Gates or the Walton family lives, but it's far better than it was 20, 30, 50, or 100 years ago.
Yes... that is all true - I agree with you post completely
But I think another point might be this: In 2010 in an enlightened world where information is so easily and readily available wouldn't you think that the Walton family would try to do what Allen and Gates have done and make Wal-Mart an amazing place to work. Ultimately caring for their employees in a way that makes the 90 billion dollars they have more meaningful..?
There's a laundry list of shameful practices (frankly embarrassing practices) by Wal-mart that would be so easily corrected... some people have no interest (at all) in making the world a better place - it's interesting that you chose Gates and Allen's company as well as Walton's company
They strive for different employee environments and the ownership spends their time and money very differently

Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:45 pm
by GannonFan
Chizzang wrote:GannonFan wrote:The rich will always get richer - it's not rocket science. They have more, so when they make the same percentage as those who have less, the gap between the two will continue to grow. Heck, the only time the gap shrinks is when the country goes into a major Depression, and that's not really something to aspire for. But while the gap grows, things do get better for everyone - there's no doubt that being poor or in poverty today is a far better situation than it's ever been in the history of this country, or even before this country. It's far from the lifestyle that Bill Gates or the Walton family lives, but it's far better than it was 20, 30, 50, or 100 years ago.
Yes... that is all true - I agree with you post completely
But I think another point might be this: In 2010 in an enlightened world where information is so easily and readily available wouldn't you think that the Walton family would try to do what Allen and Gates have done and make Wal-Mart an amazing place to work. Ultimately caring for their employees in a way that makes the 90 billion dollars they have more meaningful..?
There's a laundry list of shameful practices (frankly embarrassing practices) by Wal-mart that would be so easily corrected... some people have no interest (at all) in making the world a better place - it's interesting that you chose Gates and Allen's company as well as Walton's company
They strive for different employee environments and the ownership spends their time and money very differently

Well, in an elightened world, you can't really compare a discount shopping chain with a state of the art, cutting edge software design company. Microsoft can and does sell their products at an incredibly marked up price because they can get the huge margins they do for their products. Wal Mart has to sell on volume with razor thin margins to make the same kind of money. Neither could run their businesses like the other and still have the same results. Not defending all of Wal Mart's practices, but pointing out that the two can't ever be expected to operate similarly.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:57 pm
by Chizzang
GannonFan wrote:Chizzang wrote:
Yes... that is all true - I agree with you post completely
But I think another point might be this: In 2010 in an enlightened world where information is so easily and readily available wouldn't you think that the Walton family would try to do what Allen and Gates have done and make Wal-Mart an amazing place to work. Ultimately caring for their employees in a way that makes the 90 billion dollars they have more meaningful..?
There's a laundry list of shameful practices (frankly embarrassing practices) by Wal-mart that would be so easily corrected... some people have no interest (at all) in making the world a better place - it's interesting that you chose Gates and Allen's company as well as Walton's company
They strive for different employee environments and the ownership spends their time and money very differently

Well, in an elightened world, you can't really compare a discount shopping chain with a state of the art, cutting edge software design company. Microsoft can and does sell their products at an incredibly marked up price because they can get the huge margins they do for their products. Wal Mart has to sell on volume with razor thin margins to make the same kind of money. Neither could run their businesses like the other and still have the same results. Not defending all of Wal Mart's practices, but pointing out that the two can't ever be expected to operate similarly.

Thanks for the market research
My point was: each can be a great place to work within the framework of their respective business models
Wal-mart makes almost no effort to enrich their employee's work experience (zero)
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:44 pm
by youngterrier
D1B wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:Is making money illegal?
No. But it sucks that in order for some people to make their money, others must be in a permanent state of poverty.
Don't blame business for that, rather blame the Federal Reserve and inflation
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:31 pm
by houndawg
GannonFan wrote:Chizzang wrote:
Yes... that is all true - I agree with you post completely
But I think another point might be this: In 2010 in an enlightened world where information is so easily and readily available wouldn't you think that the Walton family would try to do what Allen and Gates have done and make Wal-Mart an amazing place to work. Ultimately caring for their employees in a way that makes the 90 billion dollars they have more meaningful..?
There's a laundry list of shameful practices (frankly embarrassing practices) by Wal-mart that would be so easily corrected... some people have no interest (at all) in making the world a better place - it's interesting that you chose Gates and Allen's company as well as Walton's company
They strive for different employee environments and the ownership spends their time and money very differently

Well, in an elightened world, you can't really compare a discount shopping chain with a state of the art, cutting edge software design company. Microsoft can and does sell their products at an incredibly marked up price because they can get the huge margins they do for their products. Wal Mart has to sell on volume with razor thin margins to make the same kind of money. Neither could run their businesses like the other and still have the same results. Not defending all of Wal Mart's practices, but pointing out that the two can't ever be expected to operate similarly.
Their family has 90 billion dollars and they treat their employees like shit.
How can one family have so much and still treat their employees the way they do?

Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:55 pm
by bobbythekidd
Chizzang wrote:Wal-mart makes almost no effort to enrich their employee's work experience (zero)
That's just not true. Wal mart can't afford to offer doggy spas and mid day naps, but they do offer them better insurance than ALL other large retail chains.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:10 pm
by Chizzang
houndawg wrote:
Their family has 90 billion dollars and they treat their employees like shit.
How can one family have so much and still treat their employees the way they do?

Apparently because of the FED and inflation...

Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:38 pm
by Ursus A. Horribilis
bobbythekidd wrote:Chizzang wrote:Wal-mart makes almost no effort to enrich their employee's work experience (zero)
That's just not true. Wal mart can't afford to offer doggy spas and mid day naps, but they do offer them better insurance than ALL other large retail chains.
That's the fucking thing that kills me about people and their Walmart bashing bullshit. The employees are not highly sought after professionals so if you compare Walmart to their contemporaries both local and nationally they compare favorably. But the fact that they have done things in an efficient fashion and better than their competitors they are some kind of fucking asshole.
People talk about Walmart like it's some sort of slave farm. I had a guy in my office the other day that works there and I was shocked to hear that he has insurance. From everything I've heard that just can't be so.
http://walmartstores.com/Careers/7750.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How do they compare to Best Buy
http://www.bestbuy-jobs.com/content/benefits/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The average Wal mart associate earns between 10-11/hr. That ain't bad or at least seems in line with a lot of jobs that require that same amount of skill (none) so where is the big difference here?
The avg. for a sales associate at Best Buy is $9.22/hr. from what I could see.
So seriously what am I missing on this thing. Why is Wal Mart the punching bag for their treatment of employees?
I don't want to hear jack fucking shit about what the top dogs in the organization make because that doesn't have shit to do with what the neanderthals off the street make. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I ain't rich but I'll be god damned if I wouldn't like to be. I just refuse to blame those that have been able to do it and maintain it. I don't hate those that achieve just because I haven't. That doesn't seem like it would be taking a lot of personal responsibility.
They have so much and I have so little. Fuck you ya whiny bitch.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:08 pm
by JohnStOnge
The bottom line is that, had Wal Mart never come into being so that the family that includes the guy who founded Wal Mart was not rich, the "bottom 40 percent" would be no better off. The family of the guy who founded Wal Mart is rich because the guy who founded Wal Mart implemented a business model that worked.
Sam Walton grew up in a lower middle class family. He had to work to help his family make ends meet. He was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Nothing was just given to him. He made his fortune. He earned it. There's no reason why his family should not enjoy the benefits. There is nothing "imoral" about the level of wealth his family has. If anybody in that lower 40 percent has the ability Sam Walton had and can come up with an idea that works as well as Sam Walton's idea worked, they can set their family up as well.
Had Sam Walton failed or even never been born, the bottom 40 percent of income earners would be characterized by about the same income distribution as they are now. He did not "steal" anything from them. He did not make them worse off. He just made himself, his family, and a bunch of other people better off.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:09 pm
by oldsloguy
JSO sort of alluded to this above, so let me expand it a bit. There is another aspect to this that IMHO makes a huge difference. That is the occupants of these 20 percentile groups are not statically assigned to any one group. There is a great deal of mobility in American society. I was in the bottom while working my way through school, but I’m no longer there. I’ll bet Bill Gates was in the bottom while trying to start Microsoft. William C. Durant was squeaking-by managing a bowling alley when he died virtually broke. I’ll bet any number of posters on this board, at various times have been in both the bottom 20th percent cohort and the top 20th percent cohort. Think back.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:18 pm
by YoUDeeMan
houndawg wrote:
Their family has 90 billion dollars and they treat their employees like ****.
How can one family have so much and still treat their employees the way they do?

They give them a job above poverty level, they get employee discounts to but all of the latest gadgets that people "need" to have, they get insurance...what the fuck do you want them to do...serve them shrimp cocktails and filet every night?
Wal-Mart employees are high school graduates...most with little ambition. For some reason, you want to reward them and have them living the high life.
The world doesn't work that way. Nor should it.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:19 pm
by JohnStOnge
There is not a single person who works at Wal Mart who was captured, dragged in, and forced to work there. Suppose Wal Mart disappeared from the face of the earth tomorrow. Would that make things better? How many people does Wal Mart employ? Would most of them be better off if Wal Mart didn't exist? Some undoubtably would. As is the case anytime there are massive layoffs, some would end up finding better jobs or take the plunge and form their own businesses then become successful. But, overall, Wal Mart vanishing would not make the world a better place.
Certainly not better for me. I go to Wal Mart because I save money in doing so. Same with a lot of people. A lot of people would have their cost of living go up a little if Wal Mart disappeared.
Another thing: One thing that really stands out to me when I go to the Wal Mart nearest my house is that they go out of their way to hire disabled people to do jobs that they really don't need them to do. Like there's a significantly mentally disabled young lady that went to high school with my kids that I see in there just doing things like pushing a dust mop around. No way they HAD to hire her. There's also a severely deformed lady with no legs that they use as a greeter. Again, they didn't HAVE to do that. I'm also thinking of the guy that works in their home entertainment area who has severe neuromuscular problems. In fact I talked to him today looking for a Lynyrd Skynyrd DVD. That guy, I must admit, is very good. But he's still part of a pattern I think I see. And that pattern is that they go out of their way to hire people with disabilities. At least that store does. You can't miss it.
Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:42 pm
by kalm
So success in the U.S. is now defined by the wealthiest family marketing foreign manufactured goods mostly to the working class who they also happen to largely employ.
Wal Mart - America's Company Store.
Boy did you guys miss the point on this one.

Re: The Rich are Getting Richer Vol. II
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:50 pm
by JohnStOnge
kalm wrote:So success in the U.S. is now defined by the wealthiest family marketing foreign manufactured goods mostly to the working class who they also happen to largely employ.
Wal Mart - America's Company Store.
Boy did you guys miss the point on this one.

What do you say is the point? It looks to me like the underlying implied point is that one person or family being successful in developing wealth somehow hurts other people. Why the comparison between the family of the guy who founded Wal Mart and the lower 40% of income earners? Is that not an effort to imply that there is some kind of injustice involved? Something "immoral?"
To me all of this stuff bears upon the same implied and flawed theme: There is some static pie of wealth that exists out there and some people have gotten more than their share. If only they hadn't gotten what they got other people would've gotten more.
No. If Wal Mart had never come into being the likelihood is that if you looked at the income distribution for the bottom 40% of income earners in the United States it would be very close to what it is now. It's not what it is because Sam Walton's family got rich.