The Big Alienation

[native]

Peggy Noonan hits the bullseye - as usual - with her latest WSJ editorial, "The Big Alienation."

"...We are at a remarkable moment. We have an open, 2,000-mile border to our south, and the entity with the power to enforce the law and impose safety and order will not do it. Wall Street collapsed, taking Main Street's money with it, and the government can't really figure out what to do about it because the government itself was deeply implicated in the crash, and both political parties are full of people whose political careers have been made possible by Wall Street contributions. Meanwhile we pass huge laws, bills so comprehensive, omnibus and transformative that no one knows what's in them and no one—literally, no one—knows how exactly they will be executed or interpreted. Citizens search for new laws online, pore over them at night, and come away knowing no more than they did before they typed "dot-gov."..."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 30750.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My brother-in-law, previously a staunch yellow dog Democrat, is so pissed off this year he has become a devotee of talk radio and will be voting for a Republican for the first time in his life.

[native]

Meanwhile, Nobama doesn't even have the intelligence to fiddle while Rome burns. Instead, he pours gasoline on the fire by blaming his peaceful political opponents with false charges of unlikely "incitement to violence," while his own partisans are actually committing real acts of violence.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100501/ap_ ... s/us_obama" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Grizalltheway]

Meanwhile, Nobama doesn't even have the intelligence to fiddle while Rome burns. Instead, he pours gasoline on the fire by blaming his peaceful political opponents with false charges of unlikely "incitement to violence," while his own partisans are actually committing real acts of violence.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100501/ap_ ... s/us_obama" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

False charges? He said it MAY incite "extreme elements" to violence. Where did he charge anyone with anything?

[native]

Meanwhile, Nobama doesn't even have the intelligence to fiddle while Rome burns. Instead, he pours gasoline on the fire by blaming his peaceful political opponents with false charges of unlikely "incitement to violence," while his own partisans are actually committing real acts of violence.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100501/ap_ ... s/us_obama" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

False charges? He said it MAY incite "extreme elements" to violence. Where did he charge anyone with anything?

If you are saying that Obama did not name names in his speech, you are correct. Go ahead and hang your hat on that toothpick if you wish.

[Grizalltheway]

False charges? He said it MAY incite "extreme elements" to violence. Where did he charge anyone with anything?

If you are saying that Obama did not name names in his speech, you are correct. Go ahead and hang your hat on that toothpick if you wish.

So there's no (recent) historical precedent of anti-government extremists resorting to violence?

[native]

If you are saying that Obama did not name names in his speech, you are correct. Go ahead and hang your hat on that toothpick if you wish.

So there's no (recent) historical precedent of anti-government extremists resorting to violence?

There is no evidence that the speech of anti-government or conservative political opposition has caused violence.

With a tiny handful of narrowly defined exceptions, not included in Obummer's speech at MSU, the antidote for the problems caused by free speech is more free speech. The speech was an unjustified and chilling attack on free speech.

[Rob Iola]

Peggy Noonan hits the bullseye - as usual - with her latest WSJ editorial, "The Big Alienation."
...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 30750.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My brother-in-law, previously a staunch yellow dog Democrat, is so pissed off this year he has become a devotee of talk radio and will be voting for a Republican for the first time in his life.

Great article - thanks for posting the link! Truly a bipartisan condemnation that points out why we're where we're at in terms of the tea party:

The American president has the power to control America's borders if he wants to, but George W. Bush and Barack Obama did not and do not want to, and for the same reason, and we all know what it is. The fastest-growing demographic in America is the Hispanic vote, and if either party cracks down on illegal immigration, it risks losing that vote for generations.

But while the Democrats worry about the prospects of the Democrats and the Republicans about the well-being of the Republicans, who worries about America?

No one. Which the American people have noticed, and which adds to the dangerous alienation—actually it's at the heart of the alienation—of the age.

[Skjellyfetti]

Peggy Noonan is probably my favorite conservative writer... Way more intelligent than the talk radio nativist's brother-in-law has become a devotee to.

The American president has the power to control America's borders if he wants to

lol. How exactly? There will be folks streaming across the border as long as they believe they can give their family a better life by coming. I don't believe any president can stop it.

[Chizzang]

I liked this observation from the article:
"Every state and region has its own facts and experience. In New York, legal and illegal immigrants keep the city running: They work hard jobs with brutal hours, rip off no one on Wall Street, and do not crash the economy. They are generally considered among the good guys. I'm not sure New Yorkers can fairly judge the situation in Arizona, nor Arizonans the situation in New York"


and I say to you:
Judge not the local peoples "experience"... let them decide locally

[native]

Peggy Noonan is probably my favorite conservative writer... Way more intelligent than the talk radio nativist's brother-in-law has become a devotee to.

The American president has the power to control America's borders if he wants to

lol. How exactly? There will be folks streaming across the border as long as they believe they can give their family a better life by coming. I don't believe any president can stop it.

As you undoubtedly already know, skelly, Obama has the power to control America's borders by simply doing his job and enforcing existing law using the tools at his disposal.

"Nativist?" Most of the people in my family speak English as a second, third or fourth language. We are all proud of where we came from, and enjoy sharing our various cultures, but all of us strive to learn English, all of us honor and respect the law, history, culture and traditions of the United States, including especially the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. None of us march down the street waving the flag of another country, supporting lawbreakers, fomenting violence, and demanding imaginary "rights" to which we are not entitled.

[kalm]

Peggy Noonan hits the bullseye - as usual - with her latest WSJ editorial, "The Big Alienation."

"...We are at a remarkable moment. We have an open, 2,000-mile border to our south, and the entity with the power to enforce the law and impose safety and order will not do it. Wall Street collapsed, taking Main Street's money with it, and the government can't really figure out what to do about it because the government itself was deeply implicated in the crash, and both political parties are full of people whose political careers have been made possible by Wall Street contributions. Meanwhile we pass huge laws, bills so comprehensive, omnibus and transformative that no one knows what's in them and no one—literally, no one—knows how exactly they will be executed or interpreted. Citizens search for new laws online, pore over them at night, and come away knowing no more than they did before they typed "dot-gov."..."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 30750.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My brother-in-law, previously a staunch yellow dog Democrat, is so pissed off this year he has become a devotee of talk radio and will be voting for a Republican for the first time in his life.

Which talk radios has he become devotee of?

[native]

Peggy Noonan hits the bullseye - as usual - with her latest WSJ editorial, "The Big Alienation."

"...We are at a remarkable moment. We have an open, 2,000-mile border to our south, and the entity with the power to enforce the law and impose safety and order will not do it. Wall Street collapsed, taking Main Street's money with it, and the government can't really figure out what to do about it because the government itself was deeply implicated in the crash, and both political parties are full of people whose political careers have been made possible by Wall Street contributions. Meanwhile we pass huge laws, bills so comprehensive, omnibus and transformative that no one knows what's in them and no one—literally, no one—knows how exactly they will be executed or interpreted. Citizens search for new laws online, pore over them at night, and come away knowing no more than they did before they typed "dot-gov."..."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 30750.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My brother-in-law, previously a staunch yellow dog Democrat, is so pissed off this year he has become a devotee of talk radio and will be voting for a Republican for the first time in his life.

Which talk radios has he become devotee of?

I am not sure. Probably a number of shows. He used to make excuses for whatever lame-brained Democrat policies came down the pike and blame Republicans, but last night at dinner, he regaled me with non-stop stories of one policy outrage after another. For the first time in the 20 years I have known him, he humbly accepted Democrat culpability. Most of his positions are rational and well considered. He is no dummy, as he successfully ran a small business for three decades. The difference between then and now is that he used to go along to get along without much care of politics, but now he is paying close attention and staying informed.

[Skjellyfetti]

As you undoubtedly already know, skelly, Obama has the power to control America's borders by simply doing his job and enforcing existing law using the tools at his disposal.

Well, what I was asking about was what tools are at his disposal and is it realistic to shut down the whole border? I'm assuming you will suggest deploying the military to the border. Just not sure our military can shut down the Iran-Iraq border (905 miles), Afghanistan-Pakistan border (1610 miles), and the Mexico-US border (1951 miles) (not sure if you are concerned about illegal Canadians or not.... but, if you are you can add the US-Canadian border to the list (1538 miles)).

And... I'm not disparaging the military so save me your spiel about your time in the military.

[native]

As you undoubtedly already know, skelly, Obama has the power to control America's borders by simply doing his job and enforcing existing law using the tools at his disposal.

Well, what I was asking about was what tools are at his disposal and is it realistic to shut down the whole border? I'm assuming you will suggest deploying the military to the border. Just not sure our military can shut down the Iran-Iraq border (905 miles), Afghanistan-Pakistan border (1610 miles), and the Mexico-US border (1951 miles) (not sure if you are concerned about illegal Canadians or not.... but, if you are you can add the US-Canadian border to the list (1538 miles)).

And... I'm not disparaging the military so save me your spiel about your time in the military.

The tools at Obama's disposal include:
1. Aggressively prosecute all the crimes associated with illegal immigration, including identity theft, fraud,
and any crimes associated with procuring and hiring illegal labor,
2. Tell the truth about the costs of illegal immigration, including the significantly above average crime and
welfare dependency rates among the illegal alien population,
3. Discourage the hyper-politicization and polarization of the issue by emphasizing that all Americans and guests
must obey the law without exceptions,
4. Complete the border fence which has contributed to a significant shift in illegal crossings from the San Diego
sector to the Tucson sector,
5. Expand ICE fugitive operations teams and operations,
6. Expand ICE raids on illegal alien employers,
7. Deny all federal benefits to illegal aliens and prosecute illegal aliens who apply for such benefits,
8. Deny federal funds to any local or state governments which provide federal funds to illegal aliens and
prosecute government officials who fail to follow the law,
9. During the initial surge to finally close the border to illegal traffic, and while ICE is building up their
capability, the military could be deployed to the border to augment federal law enforcement, but the duties which
could be legally performed by the military are limited, however,
10. Congress could and should authorize military surveillance and interdiction missions, consistent with the Posse
Comitatus Act, in certain areas of the border with high rates of organized criminal activity, including ROE for
shoot to kill and hot pursuit of criminals in cases where the Mexican government failed to provide immediate
interdiction and extradition.

With regard to immigration reform, the keys to success are:
1. Close the borders first,
2. Successfully prosecute immigration related illegal activity,
3. Increase LEGAL IMMIGRATION,
4. Codify illegal status as an aggravating circumstance for all other crimes and misdemeanors,
5. Codify certain otherwise misdemeanors for criminalization and federalization, when committed by illegal aliens,
6. Simplify labor law to make it easy for American citizens to legally hire American citizens,
7. Criminalize the hiring of illegal labor.

If, AFTER THE BORDER IS CLOSED, there is to be some path-to-accomodation of the 10-20 million illegal aliens who
are already in the United States, create a separate status to ensure that illegals never, under any circumstances,
receive citizenship or be eligible for unearned entitlements, but could eventually earn a non-citizen legal status
allowing the right to work, pay taxes, and travel freely to visit family.

Furthermore, after criminalization of illegal immigration related activity, segregate all criminal illegal aliens
from other state, local and federal prison populations, build a special federal prison in the Arizona desert just
for illegal alien criminals, and monitor intrusively the communications of all criminal illegal aliens.

I realize you are not disparaging the military, so I grant you a temporary reprieve.

[Ivytalk]

Meanwhile, Nobama doesn't even have the intelligence to fiddle while Rome burns. Instead, he pours gasoline on the fire by blaming his peaceful political opponents with false charges of unlikely "incitement to violence," while his own partisans are actually committing real acts of violence.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100501/ap_ ... s/us_obama" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

False charges? He said it MAY incite "extreme elements" to violence. Where did he charge anyone with anything?

GATW scores a one-two punch with the Big Titz!

[Grizalltheway]

False charges? He said it MAY incite "extreme elements" to violence. Where did he charge anyone with anything?

GATW scores a one-two punch with the Big Titz!

[Skjellyfetti]

Well, what I was asking about was what tools are at his disposal and is it realistic to shut down the whole border? I'm assuming you will suggest deploying the military to the border. Just not sure our military can shut down the Iran-Iraq border (905 miles), Afghanistan-Pakistan border (1610 miles), and the Mexico-US border (1951 miles) (not sure if you are concerned about illegal Canadians or not.... but, if you are you can add the US-Canadian border to the list (1538 miles)).

And... I'm not disparaging the military so save me your spiel about your time in the military.

The tools at Obama's disposal include:
1. Aggressively prosecute all the crimes associated with illegal immigration, including identity theft, fraud,
and any crimes associated with procuring and hiring illegal labor,
2. Tell the truth about the costs of illegal immigration, including the significantly above average crime and
welfare dependency rates among the illegal alien population,
3. Discourage the hyper-politicization and polarization of the issue by emphasizing that all Americans and guests
must obey the law without exceptions,
4. Complete the border fence which has contributed to a significant shift in illegal crossings from the San Diego
sector to the Tucson sector,
5. Expand ICE fugitive operations teams and operations,
6. Expand ICE raids on illegal alien employers,
7. Deny all federal benefits to illegal aliens and prosecute illegal aliens who apply for such benefits,
8. Deny federal funds to any local or state governments which provide federal funds to illegal aliens and
prosecute government officials who fail to follow the law,
9. During the initial surge to finally close the border to illegal traffic, and while ICE is building up their
capability, the military could be deployed to the border to augment federal law enforcement, but the duties which
could be legally performed by the military are limited, however,
10. Congress could and should authorize military surveillance and interdiction missions, consistent with the Posse
Comitatus Act, in certain areas of the border with high rates of organized criminal activity, including ROE for
shoot to kill and hot pursuit of criminals in cases where the Mexican government failed to provide immediate
interdiction and extradition.

With regard to immigration reform, the keys to success are:
1. Close the borders first,
2. Successfully prosecute immigration related illegal activity,
3. Increase LEGAL IMMIGRATION,
4. Codify illegal status as an aggravating circumstance for all other crimes and misdemeanors,
5. Codify certain otherwise misdemeanors for criminalization and federalization, when committed by illegal aliens,
6. Simplify labor law to make it easy for American citizens to legally hire American citizens,
7. Criminalize the hiring of illegal labor.

If, AFTER THE BORDER IS CLOSED, there is to be some path-to-accomodation of the 10-20 million illegal aliens who
are already in the United States, create a separate status to ensure that illegals never, under any circumstances,
receive citizenship or be eligible for unearned entitlements, but could eventually earn a non-citizen legal status
allowing the right to work, pay taxes, and travel freely to visit family.

Furthermore, after criminalization of illegal immigration related activity, segregate all criminal illegal aliens
from other state, local and federal prison populations, build a special federal prison in the Arizona desert just
for illegal alien criminals, and monitor intrusively the communications of all criminal illegal aliens.

I realize you are not disparaging the military, so I grant you a reprieve.

nativist, that's a nice long post and all. but, you barely touch on how to close the border. and you acknowledge that is the key to the whole thing and also what i was asking about. your post is mainly about punishing the illegals here. which is fine. but, that doesn't solve the problem of them getting here.

extend the border fence. ok. What else?

[native]

...nativist, that's a nice long post and all. but, you barely touch on how to close the border. and you acknowledge that is the key to the whole thing and also what i was asking about. your post is mainly about punishing the illegals here. which is fine. but, that doesn't solve the problem of them getting here.

extend the border fence. ok. What else?

You are mistaken in your assessment of the efficacy of the tools at Obama's disposal, skelly.

Although no single tool listed would be successful as a stand-alone measure in securing the border, each of the tools listed has been partially successful when implemented on a smaller scale. The entire list of the ten tools at Obama's disposal is relevant in securing the border.

For example, if employers of illegal aliens were prosecuted, many of the jobs would dry up, reducing the magnet effect of the jobs. If unearned entitlements were eliminated, their magnet effect would be eliminated. If local government official were prosecuted for breaking the law, sanctuary would be reduced. If the President would stop stirring the pot with pro-illegal rhetoric and start telling the truth and enforcing the law, lawbreakers would no longer feel like they have a free pass to break the law.

All the tools used aggressively and in concert would be devastatingly effective in securing the border.

As to how close to the border the military should be deployed, that would have to be worked out with reasonable rules of engagement (ROE) in mind. Keep in mind that posse comitatus protects U.S. citizens, NOT illegal aliens. One possible starting point would be to create an interdiction zone within 10 to 20 miles of either side of the border in certain low-population areas, and to deploy interdiction teams on the U.S. side with all the whiz bang surveillance gear at the military's disposal. The teams would wield the authority to engage any target observed to have crossed the border where no legal border crossing exists, to use deadly force against any armed target, and to continue across the border in hot pursuit of any case in which the Mexican government is unwilling to render immediate interdiction and extradition assistance and cooperation.

[JMU DJ]

Peggy Noonan hits the bullseye - as usual - with her latest WSJ editorial, "The Big Alienation."
...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 30750.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My brother-in-law, previously a staunch yellow dog Democrat, is so pissed off this year he has become a devotee of talk radio and will be voting for a Republican for the first time in his life.

Great article - thanks for posting the link! Truly a bipartisan condemnation that points out why we're where we're at in terms of the tea party:

The American president has the power to control America's borders if he wants to, but George W. Bush and Barack Obama did not and do not want to, and for the same reason, and we all know what it is. /quote]

Wait, Wait, Wait! So is this lady telling me Bush didn't control America's borders???? That's not what Tman was telling me.



Interesting article, but the focus of the article brings me back to the thought I've been having recently. Why are we only focusing on one border? I understand that this border is where the most illegals come through, if I'm not mistaken. But, I have a feeling there are easier, less protected borders that people can pass though... say by sea.