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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... Campaign_4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Adam Bustos, a third-generation Mexican-American, has voted Republican since Ronald Reagan ran for president. But he has been reconsidering his party affiliation since Arizona State Gov. Jan Brewer signed the nation's toughest immigration law last month.

"I've been thinking I might leave the party," said Mr. Bustos, a 58-year-old Arizona native. "A lot of my Latino Republican friends have been talking about it after this law."

But that's one of the basic problems with the federal government taking up comprehensive immigration reform, isn't it? Whichever party spearheads the effort risks losing the Hispanic vote because reform has to include illegal immigrant provisions (read, ID check), right?

Rob Iola wrote:But that's one of the basic problems with the federal government taking up comprehensive immigration reform, isn't it? Whichever party spearheads the effort risks losing the Hispanic vote because reform has to include illegal immigrant provisions (read, ID check), right?

Yep. That's the rub.

You'd need a bipartisan effort from non-career politicians to get real reform. There's a better chance of the earth ending in 2012.

Headline:

I'm taking my pelota and going home.

Rob Iola wrote:But that's one of the basic problems with the federal government taking up comprehensive immigration reform, isn't it? Whichever party spearheads the effort risks losing the Hispanic vote because reform has to include illegal immigrant provisions (read, ID check), right?

Depends on how it is done, IMO

Realistically, deportation is NOT going to happen for the vast majority of illegals in the country now. What we need to work on is a five-tier approach

1) Securing ALL borders better - fencing in cities, increased patrols, cameras in more remote areas. More feet on the ground.
2) Increase penalties for companies that skirt immigration laws - make it unprofitable to do so
3) Set up a guest worker program
4) Create a path to citizenship for those that are here. I know this is not popular with the right, but the pragmatic solution
5) Concentrate our foreign aid on the countries that are the sources of illegal immigration - better to keep them there, than here.

I couldn't get the full story from your link Jon, maybe it was just me. But I found it here:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 22816.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dbackjon wrote:

Rob Iola wrote:But that's one of the basic problems with the federal government taking up comprehensive immigration reform, isn't it? Whichever party spearheads the effort risks losing the Hispanic vote because reform has to include illegal immigrant provisions (read, ID check), right?

Depends on how it is done, IMO

Realistically, deportation is NOT going to happen for the vast majority of illegals in the country now. What we need to work on is a five-tier approach

1) Securing ALL borders better - fencing in cities, increased patrols, cameras in more remote areas. More feet on the ground.
2) Increase penalties for companies that skirt immigration laws - make it unprofitable to do so
3) Set up a guest worker program
4) Create a path to citizenship for those that are here. I know this is not popular with the right, but the pragmatic solution Legalization maybe, but citizenship as a reward for lawlessness? NEVER.
5) Concentrate our foreign aid on the countries that are the sources of illegal immigration - better to keep them there, than here. Not necessarily effective.

My responses in emoticons embedded in jon's post.

dbackjon wrote:5) Concentrate our foreign aid on the countries that are the sources of illegal immigration...

Because we all know US aid goes to the people that need it and to the economy to help it and not to the people in power.

native wrote:

dbackjon wrote:

Depends on how it is done, IMO

Realistically, deportation is NOT going to happen for the vast majority of illegals in the country now. What we need to work on is a five-tier approach

1) Securing ALL borders better - fencing in cities, increased patrols, cameras in more remote areas. More feet on the ground.
2) Increase penalties for companies that skirt immigration laws - make it unprofitable to do so
3) Set up a guest worker program
4) Create a path to citizenship for those that are here. I know this is not popular with the right, but the pragmatic solution Legalization maybe, but citizenship as a reward for lawlessness? NEVER.
5) Concentrate our foreign aid on the countries that are the sources of illegal immigration - better to keep them there, than here. Not necessarily effective.

My responses in emoticons embedded in jon's post.

I'm with native in his responses. Why reward someone who is committing a crime every day of their lives by living here with full citizenship?

So native/Hen - what is your solution?

And I would be fine with legalization for now - citizenship after a longer period than someone that followed the proper channels from day one.

dbackjon wrote:So native/Hen - what is your solution?

And I would be fine with legalization for now - citizenship after a longer period than someone that followed the proper channels from day one.

Can't speak for those guys, but my soln' is a bit simpler:

If you can speak English and pay taxes, then welcome aboard mate! We'll even teach you English if don't speak it.

One common language facilitating open communication, and people paying for the services provided - that makes for a strong America.

Rob Iola wrote:

dbackjon wrote:So native/Hen - what is your solution?

And I would be fine with legalization for now - citizenship after a longer period than someone that followed the proper channels from day one.

Can't speak for those guys, but my soln' is a bit simpler:

If you can speak English and pay taxes, then welcome aboard mate! We'll even teach you English if don't speak it.

One common language facilitating open communication, and people paying for the services provided - that makes for a strong America.

I mostly agree with the English language sentiment - anyone that wants a green card/citizenship needs to learn English.

I do make an exception for the Native Americans like Navajo and Hopis that still speak their native tongue

dbackjon wrote:So native/Hen - what is your solution?

And I would be fine with legalization for now - citizenship after a longer period than someone that followed the proper channels from day one.

Send them all to Iowa. They'll have the answer for them.

dbackjon wrote:

Rob Iola wrote:But that's one of the basic problems with the federal government taking up comprehensive immigration reform, isn't it? Whichever party spearheads the effort risks losing the Hispanic vote because reform has to include illegal immigrant provisions (read, ID check), right?

Depends on how it is done, IMO

Realistically, deportation is NOT going to happen for the vast majority of illegals in the country now. What we need to work on is a five-tier approach

1) Securing ALL borders better - fencing in cities, increased patrols, cameras in more remote areas. More feet on the ground.
2) Increase penalties for companies that skirt immigration laws - make it unprofitable to do so
3) Set up a guest worker program
4) Create a path to citizenship for those that are here. I know this is not popular with the right, but the pragmatic solution
5) Concentrate our foreign aid on the countries that are the sources of illegal immigration - better to keep them there, than here.

Seeing to do # 4 on your list requires we overlook criminal activity...namely entering this country illegally...can each of us here legally get one free crime too...or is that just a benefit given to those whose votes we are currying...

Col Hogan wrote:

dbackjon wrote:

Depends on how it is done, IMO

Realistically, deportation is NOT going to happen for the vast majority of illegals in the country now. What we need to work on is a five-tier approach

1) Securing ALL borders better - fencing in cities, increased patrols, cameras in more remote areas. More feet on the ground.
2) Increase penalties for companies that skirt immigration laws - make it unprofitable to do so
3) Set up a guest worker program
4) Create a path to citizenship for those that are here. I know this is not popular with the right, but the pragmatic solution
5) Concentrate our foreign aid on the countries that are the sources of illegal immigration - better to keep them there, than here.

Seeing to do # 4 on your list requires we overlook criminal activity...namely entering this country illegally...can each of us here legally get one free crime too...or is that just a benefit given to those whose votes we are currying...

Um, isn't this whole "criminal activity" logic a bit of a stretch? If you're Cuban and you can get onto US soil you can stay, right? Are they engaging in any more or less criminal activity than Mexicans?

Rob Iola wrote:

Col Hogan wrote:
Seeing to do # 4 on your list requires we overlook criminal activity...namely entering this country illegally...can each of us here legally get one free crime too...or is that just a benefit given to those whose votes we are currying...

Um, isn't this whole "criminal activity" logic a bit of a stretch? If you're Cuban and you can get onto US soil you can stay, right? Are they any more or less Hispanic than Mexicans?

Bingo!

Why are Cubans exempt? What makes them special? Hundreds of thousands of El Salvadorans, Guatamalans, Nicaraguans are in this country to escape political terrorism as well.

And Colonel, do you really think we can round up and deport 11 million people?

dbackjon wrote:And Colonel, do you really think we can round up and deport 11 million people?

No...but that doesn't mean we should reward them with citizenship either...

Rob Iola wrote: If you're Cuban and you can get onto US soil you can stay, right? Are they any more or less Hispanic than Mexicans?

Cubans have an exemption in the law...passed because politicians pander to the Cubans to get the Florida vote...are you suggesting we repeat that mistake and pander to other groups???

We can but we won't.

Just think of all the jobs that would create?




Also illegal cubans should be held to the same standard as the illegal mexicans russians etc. Not as worried about them since they can't walk accross anytime they want and their country won't let them leave on their own free will

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:We can but we won't.

Just think of all the jobs that would create?




Also illegal cubans should be held to the same standard as the illegal mexicans russians etc. Not as worried about them since they can't walk accross anytime they want and their country won't let them leave on their own free will

So the Cubans are actually committing 2 crimes...

My point isn't about their legal status in the US, but rather in the use of the term "criminal activity" - many of these so-called criminals provide a net economic benefit to the US based on the menial labor they perform. We need to tax that. OTOH the unregulated nature of their very presence leaves the door open to actual criminal activity. We need control that.

It doesn't help the reform effort by hiding behind a stock "criminal activity" argument...

Rob Iola wrote:

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:We can but we won't.

Just think of all the jobs that would create?

Also illegal cubans should be held to the same standard as the illegal mexicans russians etc. Not as worried about them since they can't walk accross anytime they want and their country won't let them leave on their own free will

So the Cubans are actually committing 2 crimes...

My point isn't about their legal status in the US, but rather in the use of the term "criminal activity" - many of these so-called criminals provide a net economic benefit to the US based on the menial labor they perform. We need to tax that. OTOH the unregulated nature of their very presence leaves the door open to actual criminal activity. We need control that.

It doesn't help the reform effort by hiding behind a stock "criminal activity" argument...

Point well taken, Rob, but the answer is increased LEGAL immigration and a guest worker program, NOT amnesty for lawbreakers.

I realize that you do acknowledge the criminal activity argument before you condemn it as a "stock" argument to hide behind. Not so fast! 17% of the illegal border crossers in Arizona already have criminal record, and an even higher percentage of the criminal prison populations in border states are illegal aliens.

Even though some of the illegals may contribute to the economy, they also actively hide the criminal aliens and gang members in their communities and undermine legal businesses which follow the rules. OLDSLO guy has commented at length on how illegal alien contractors put legitimate contractors out of business, and my wife and I have seen it with our own eyes in the San Diego restaurant business.

Unions on one side and illegal aliens on the other! How does a legitimate small business owner ever make it, and who in the hell is ever going to stand up for the little guy who follows the rules?

native wrote:...
I realize that you do acknowledge the criminal activity argument before you condemn it as a "stock" argument to hide behind. Not so fast! 17% of the illegal border crossers in Arizona already have criminal record, and an even higher percentage of the criminal prison populations in border states are illegal aliens.

Even though some of the illegals may contribute to the economy, they also actively hide the criminal aliens and gang members in their communities and undermine legal businesses which follow the rules. OLDSLO guy has commented at length on how illegal alien contractors put legitimate contractors out of business, and my wife and I have seen it with our own eyes in the San Diego restaurant business.

Unions on one side and illegal aliens on the other! How does a legitimate small business owner ever make it, and who in the hell is ever going to stand up for the little guy who follows the rules?

We're on the same page native - the key is to weed out those actually committing criminal activities (including illegal alien contractors) from those that can actually contribute to the country. If they're all lumped together then you can't reasonably expect those folks that we'd actually like to keep as guest workers to assist us in finding and deporting the real criminal element...

Rob Iola wrote:

native wrote:...
I realize that you do acknowledge the criminal activity argument before you condemn it as a "stock" argument to hide behind. Not so fast! 17% of the illegal border crossers in Arizona already have criminal record, and an even higher percentage of the criminal prison populations in border states are illegal aliens.

Even though some of the illegals may contribute to the economy, they also actively hide the criminal aliens and gang members in their communities and undermine legal businesses which follow the rules. OLDSLO guy has commented at length on how illegal alien contractors put legitimate contractors out of business, and my wife and I have seen it with our own eyes in the San Diego restaurant business.

Unions on one side and illegal aliens on the other! How does a legitimate small business owner ever make it, and who in the hell is ever going to stand up for the little guy who follows the rules?

We're on the same page native - the key is to weed out those actually committing criminal activities (including illegal alien contractors) from those that can actually contribute to the country. If they're all lumped together then you can't reasonably expect those folks that we'd actually like to keep as guest workers to assist us in finding and deporting the real criminal element...

Well said. And this is one reason that various Law Enforcement Officers give for opposing the Arizona bill - they rely on the "good" illegals to help them catch the "bad" illegals. If we treat them ALL as criminals, the true criminals amongst them have an easier time evading capture.

Rob Iola wrote:

native wrote:...
I realize that you do acknowledge the criminal activity argument before you condemn it as a "stock" argument to hide behind. Not so fast! 17% of the illegal border crossers in Arizona already have criminal record, and an even higher percentage of the criminal prison populations in border states are illegal aliens.

Even though some of the illegals may contribute to the economy, they also actively hide the criminal aliens and gang members in their communities and undermine legal businesses which follow the rules. OLDSLO guy has commented at length on how illegal alien contractors put legitimate contractors out of business, and my wife and I have seen it with our own eyes in the San Diego restaurant business.

Unions on one side and illegal aliens on the other! How does a legitimate small business owner ever make it, and who in the hell is ever going to stand up for the little guy who follows the rules?

We're on the same page native - the key is to weed out those actually committing criminal activities (including illegal alien contractors) from those that can actually contribute to the country. If they're all lumped together then you can't reasonably expect those folks that we'd actually like to keep as guest workers to assist us in finding and deporting the real criminal element...

Sorry, Rob, I have to partially disagree. Weeding out the violent criminals is great, but it still does nothing to prevent illegal labor and the businesses that employ illegal labor from undermining legitimate law-abiding businesses.

A perfect example if Janet Meechai in San Diego who owns three separate businesses that hire illegal aliens. She routinely violates labor law by making them work overtime for less than the minimum wage, takes half of their tips, pays cash only to avoid taxes, reports maybe 10% of her cash flow, and even makes the illegals pay rent to live in her property. I have called the hotline numbers and no one gives a sh!t.

dbackjon wrote:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... Campaign_4

Adam Bustos, a third-generation Mexican-American, has voted Republican since Ronald Reagan ran for president. But he has been reconsidering his party affiliation since Arizona State Gov. Jan Brewer signed the nation's toughest immigration law last month.

"I've been thinking I might leave the party," said Mr. Bustos, a 58-year-old Arizona native. "A lot of my Latino Republican friends have been talking about it after this law."

So, Mexican-Americans who normally hold "conservative" values, resort to racist tactics...becoming single issue voters on the subject of supporting their law breaking Mexican kin.

And you, dback, celebrate that idea as OK?

And yet you spew hate towards anyone who dares to cast a "racist" vote only to show support for their European brothers?

Just another day in dback's hypocritical world.