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I think most fiscally conservative folks would agree that our federal government is terribly inefficient and wasteful in so many ways and that it would be relatively easy to make needed cuts in spending if the political will could just be summoned. That said, is this also not true when it comes to the defense budget? Is there really nothing in the budget that we can really do without, especially considering our defense budget dwarfs most of the other ones in the world? Can a fiscal conservative who doesn't advocate defense cuts be taken seriously? Just asking.

The Donald Rumsfeld 1-4-2-1 defense strategy requires that we have 750 global military bases - you can't be world Police with any less...

Pwns wrote:I think most fiscally conservative folks would agree that our federal government is terribly inefficient and wasteful in so many ways and that it would be relatively easy to make needed cuts in spending if the political will could just be summoned. That said, is this also not true when it comes to the defense budget? Is there really nothing in the budget that we can really do without, especially considering our defense budget dwarfs most of the other ones in the world? Can a fiscal conservative who doesn't advocate defense cuts be taken seriously? Just asking.

Probably not, pwns. Why not add a cs.com poll to your original post?

Yes. We spend more money on the defense of this country than our biggest potential enemies. We are estimated to spend $664 billion on defense this year and roughly, $47 billion on Education. China is looking to spend roughly $78 billion. We spend too much on useless, antiquated programs. Our budget is lopsided. Here are the top 10:

Discretionary spending:
$663.7 billion (+12.7%) – Department of Defense (including Overseas Contingency Operations)
$78.7 billion (−1.7%) – Department of Health and Human Services
$72.5 billion (+2.8%) – Department of Transportation
$52.5 billion (+10.3%) – Department of Veterans Affairs
$51.7 billion (+40.9%) – Department of State and Other International Programs
$47.5 billion (+18.5%) – Department of Housing and Urban Development
$46.7 billion (+12.8%) – Department of Education
$42.7 billion (+1.2%) – Department of Homeland Security
$26.3 billion (−0.4%) – Department of Energy
$26.0 billion (+8.8%) – Department of Agriculture

There is roughly a $585 billion gap between the #1 and #2 spots. I'm all for the military, the Dept. of Navy pays my salary, but spending on this front is out of control.

I, for one, hope that Sec. Gates gets his wishes.

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native wrote:

Pwns wrote:I think most fiscally conservative folks would agree that our federal government is terribly inefficient and wasteful in so many ways and that it would be relatively easy to make needed cuts in spending if the political will could just be summoned. That said, is this also not true when it comes to the defense budget? Is there really nothing in the budget that we can really do without, especially considering our defense budget dwarfs most of the other ones in the world? Can a fiscal conservative who doesn't advocate defense cuts be taken seriously? Just asking.

Probably not, pwns. Why not add a cs.com poll to your original post?

Done, and why do you say no?

Like every other line item in our budget, defense expenditures need to be cut.

I don't know by how much, but I suspect our defense expenditures are among the most wasteful and inefficient in the federal budget.

We are a nation living well beyond our means. That means there is no sacred cow in the budget.

JoltinJoe wrote:Like every other line item in our budget, defense expenditures need to be cut.

I don't know by how much, but I suspect our defense expenditures are among the most wasteful and inefficient in the federal budget.

We are a nation living well beyond our means. That means there is no sacred cow in the budget.

What he said. Unfortunately, much of the defense budget is a welfare program.

Along with a list of other items, cut it

Pwns wrote:

native wrote:
Probably not, pwns. Why not add a cs.com poll to your original post?

Done, and why do you say no?

Sorry. Misunderstood the question. My answer is yes - a conservative politician can advocate for a freeze or modest cuts and still be taken seriously, IF the Defense cuts are in the context of massive cuts to other programs.

There is waste in the military budget. However, before significant cuts occur there, I'd like to see the Dept. of Education entirely eliminated.

CitadelGrad wrote:There is waste in the military budget. However, before significant cuts occur there, I'd like to see the Dept. of Education entirely eliminated.

Absolutely agreed...
The military does a far greater job of educating their students
So much so
That you can even get them to believe that Iraq and Vietnam are meaningful and proper places to die


Now that's real education

Chizzang wrote:

The Donald Rumsfeld 1-4-2-1 defense strategy requires that we have 750 global military bases - you can't be world Police with any less...

Chizz, I agree with you.

It is high time we stop being the guarantor for the security of countries that then pillory us on the world political stage. For over 50 years now, our defense spending has not just been for America. It has also been for Europe as well as any other region or country that was either strategically vital or was threatened by the press of Communist aggression in the first half of the Cold War.

Every extra dollar we spend on defense frees up one extra Euro for countries like Sweden or France to both spend on their own wonderful social programs. In return, we get the scorn of those same countries who have never had to spend more than 5-10 percent of their GDP on defense (because we were doing it for them).

It is high time that we get back to the original precepts of a 'common defense' and allow these cesspools we insist on protecting learn how to do it for themselves. An added bonus to this would be that all of the ancillary sh!tholes we look after (Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, et al) would suddenly become much less strategically important.

Get out of Japan. Let them become vassals of China and see how they like having a Chinese airbase in Okinawa instead of an American one.

Remove US forces from every single NATO base in Europe, and dissolve our charter. Let France and Germany take the baton on that one and see how they like facing the New Bear with their atrophied military forces.

I am an American exceptionalist and I'll make no apologies for that. Anything that benefits America is good. Anything that does not benefit America is bad. Guaranteeing security for countries that will not do it for themselves in no way benefits America. Period.

Yes. Big time. I wouldn't mind seeing it cut in half.

Skjellyfetti wrote:Yes. Big time. I wouldn't mind seeing it cut in half.

And what would you cut...be specific please...

Col Hogan wrote:

Skjellyfetti wrote:Yes. Big time. I wouldn't mind seeing it cut in half.

And what would you cut...be specific please...

Hopefully it's not that half where we work, Col.

93henfan wrote:

Col Hogan wrote:
And what would you cut...be specific please...

Hopefully it's not that half where we work, Col.

My job is cut come October 1st as of right now...so he can't recommend that...

But I'd really like to see what someone thinks can be cut....I know where cuts can be made, except the congressional districts that would be impacted won't let it happen...

Our government NEVER cuts anything.

If they got rid of half of the defense budget, they would spend the other half on something else, our budget will never be lower than the previous year.




And No we shouldnt cut the Dept of Defense budget.

Col Hogan wrote:

93henfan wrote:
Hopefully it's not that half where we work, Col.

My job is cut come October 1st as of right now...so he can't recommend that...

But I'd really like to see what someone thinks can be cut....I know where cuts can be made, except the congressional districts that would be impacted won't let it happen...

I agree that Congress would never cut defense spending in half.

But, I'd give the military a 360 billion dollar budget and tell them to start scrapping shit. Start closing up military bases around the world, sell them to the countries they're in, cut out programs like the missile defense shield, f-35, etc. Sue Col. Hogan for all the time he's spent on AGS and cs.com on the government's dime.

Our defense budget is so high because the military has to simultaneously defend us against conventional and asymmetric threats. That's hard enough with current manning levels, which are in fact WAY too low. There is no leeway NOW for injury/illness, and people want to increase the workload?!? (The newfangled border project among other things.)

I say absorb those of appropriate age and unemployed and plug them into appropriate areas. That would solve much of the unemployment problem, thereby saving a ton in THOSE payouts. I don't necessarily advocate a reinstating the draft, but the military is a GREAT way to develop job skills.

While there are exceptions (i.e. Ibanez), I find that many of those who object to the military have never been associated with it. I respect the opinion of those like Ibanez, but those who have never had an association with it (Bay Area and Ivy radicals come to mind) have no business smacking our defense. I haven't seen any Vietnam-era-style smack going on, but in some areas we're heading in that direction.

CID1990 wrote:

Chizzang wrote:

The Donald Rumsfeld 1-4-2-1 defense strategy requires that we have 750 global military bases - you can't be world Police with any less...

Chizz, I agree with you.

It is high time we stop being the guarantor for the security of countries that then pillory us on the world political stage. For over 50 years now, our defense spending has not just been for America. It has also been for Europe as well as any other region or country that was either strategically vital or was threatened by the press of Communist aggression in the first half of the Cold War.

Every extra dollar we spend on defense frees up one extra Euro for countries like Sweden or France to both spend on their own wonderful social programs. In return, we get the scorn of those same countries who have never had to spend more than 5-10 percent of their GDP on defense (because we were doing it for them).

It is high time that we get back to the original precepts of a 'common defense' and allow these cesspools we insist on protecting learn how to do it for themselves. An added bonus to this would be that all of the ancillary sh!tholes we look after (Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, et al) would suddenly become much less strategically important.

Get out of Japan. Let them become vassals of China and see how they like having a Chinese airbase in Okinawa instead of an American one.

Remove US forces from every single NATO base in Europe, and dissolve our charter. Let France and Germany take the baton on that one and see how they like facing the New Bear with their atrophied military forces.

I am an American exceptionalist and I'll make no apologies for that. Anything that benefits America is good. Anything that does not benefit America is bad. Guaranteeing security for countries that will not do it for themselves in no way benefits America. Period.

You and I will get along just fine... I'm 100% in agreement
That is probably the best post I've read in a long long time CID1990

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:Our government NEVER cuts anything.

If they got rid of half of the defense budget, they would spend the other half on something else, our budget will never be lower than the previous year.

And No we shouldnt cut the Dept of Defense budget.

Yep. Government spending is a whack-a-mole kind of thing. Plug the hole the Pentagon is leaking money out of, and the leak gets bigger somewhere else like welfare and unemployment claims and food stamps.

I don't blame the Pentagon for all the waste, fraud, and abuse. Much of it comes from the civilian so-called leadership. Col. Hogan was right about military spending being welfare for Congressional districts, sometimes the Pentagon has to buy stuff they don't even want.

houndawg wrote:I don't blame the Pentagon for all the waste, fraud, and abuse. Much of it comes from the civilian so-called leadership. Col. Hogan was right about military spending being welfare for Congressional districts, sometimes the Pentagon has to buy stuff they don't even want.

I blame their budget system for the waste. The concept that you must spend your entire budget in order to be funded at that level again the next year boggles the mind. All the while, the heads of each brach go before congress each year with their hand out saying, "we need more money....we spent every dime we had...we are stretched to the ends!" If they had some incentive to cut costs, or save on a process they could allocate funds towards something else.

I'd start by limiting the increases. Then move to capping the budgets for each branch. It's amazing what can be done to streamline and make work when you don't have deep pockets of tax revenues.

bobbythekidd wrote:

houndawg wrote:I don't blame the Pentagon for all the waste, fraud, and abuse. Much of it comes from the civilian so-called leadership. Col. Hogan was right about military spending being welfare for Congressional districts, sometimes the Pentagon has to buy stuff they don't even want.

I blame their budget system for the waste. The concept that you must spend your entire budget in order to be funded at that level again the next year boggles the mind. All the while, the heads of each brach go before congress each year with their hand out saying, "we need more money....we spent every dime we had...we are stretched to the ends!" If they had some incentive to cut costs, or save on a process they could allocate funds towards something else.

I'd start by limiting the increases. Then move to capping the budgets for each branch. It's amazing what can be done to streamline and make work when you don't have deep pockets of tax revenues.

That isn't exclusive to the military by any means and Congress controls the purse strings.

houndawg wrote:

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:Our government NEVER cuts anything.

If they got rid of half of the defense budget, they would spend the other half on something else, our budget will never be lower than the previous year.

And No we shouldnt cut the Dept of Defense budget.

Yep. Government spending is a whack-a-mole kind of thing. Plug the hole the Pentagon is leaking money out of, and the leak gets bigger somewhere else like welfare and unemployment claims and food stamps.

I don't blame the Pentagon for all the waste, fraud, and abuse. Much of it comes from the civilian so-called leadership. Col. Hogan was right about military spending being welfare for Congressional districts, sometimes the Pentagon has to buy stuff they don't even want.

I'll give you an example...not that far away from you, dawg...

BRAC took the old F-16s (some of the oldest, most expensive in the inventory) away from the Air National Guard in Springfield, IL....the Air Force gave the unit there some new missions, but they did not involve flying...

Well, for years, the community there has suckled from the federal teat and has the ANG pay the entire bill for the Crash Fire Rescue department at the airport...and while they were flying military aircraft there, it was OK because Air Force regulations required a certain level of CFR...

A side benefit is that the airlines will fly into Springfield IL because there is adequate services, including CFR...

Well, the community realized they would have to pick up the bill...a couple of million a year...and whined and cried...and then Senator (candidate) Obama put the pressure on the Air Force...and now, the DoD is paying for a service it doesn't need or use at Springfield...they even timed the announcement to allow Obama to announce this great "fix" from Denver at the Democratic National Convention where he was nominated...

Now, other communities are asking got the same treatment...and the bills keep mounting...and this is just a very tiny example of how our Congress uses the DoD budget as its own little piggy bank...I could go on for a long time...but you get the point...

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:Our government NEVER cuts anything.

If they got rid of half of the defense budget, they would spend the other half on something else, our budget will never be lower than the previous year.




And No we shouldnt cut the Dept of Defense budget.

I've been on a project that was cut by order of Congress.