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Placing the Blame as Students Are Buried in Debt

Like many middle-class families, Cortney Munna and her mother began the college selection process with a grim determination. They would do whatever they could to get Cortney into the best possible college, and they maintained a blind faith that the investment would be worth it.

Today, however, Ms. Munna, a 26-year-old graduate of New York University, has nearly $100,000 in student loan debt from her four years in college, and affording the full monthly payments would be a struggle. For much of the time since her 2005 graduation, she's been enrolled in night school, which allows her to defer loan payments.

.......

Cortney could move someplace cheaper than her current home city of San Francisco, but she worries about her job prospects, even with her N.Y.U. diploma.

She recently received a raise and now makes $22 an hour working for a photographer. It's the highest salary she's earned since graduating with an interdisciplinary degree in religious and women's studies. After taxes, she takes home about $2,300 a month. Rent runs $750, and the full monthly payments on her student loans would be about $700 if they weren't being deferred, which would not leave a lot left over.


http://finance.yahoo.com/college-educat ... ollegeprep


I'm sick of these morons majoring in some stupid ass major and then whining because they can't pay back their loans. How f'ing stupid do you have to be?

Kinda like all the Arabs graduating in Saudi colleges with degrees in Islamic Studies...

There's enough blame to go around.

1. Schools setting tuition WAY too high.
2. What Hi5 said.

But 2 is a limited argument. "Useful" majors only go so far. Not ever school carries every "useful" major. There's something to be said for the traditional "liberal arts" concept. The only questions I would have for this girl given her major would be if she'd considered pursuing a ministerial license or picking up a master's (yes, that would make her debt even worse) so she could enter academia. Grade school teaching would also be a good option if she can get in a school in one of those areas that qualify for loan forgiveness. That might be a chancy thing, though, given the bogus layoffs going on in Cali. (I have yet to hear if anyone employed as a teacher under the special loan forgiveness is either blocked from layoff or is protected from the mandatory repayment clause if they are laid off before the program's minimum teaching period is met.)

Women's studies majors = Future Burger King managers

how can she really complain making 22 an hour being an assistant for a photographer? Yes it is not great money, but she should stop deferring and taking on interest and begin paying. She will still have about 40% of her monthly income to go towards sundries. They also have IBR and other programs that will not take more than 10% of your income for loans and lower the total cost. Since she is an NYU grad she should know how to do research and have basic knowledge of economics and how to handle her personal finances.

In this case, it is the girl's fault and I do not feel the least bit sorry for her. She and her mom were obsessed with getting into the school with the biggest name and they weren't paying any attention to things like tuition costs, the cost-of-living in the area where the school is located, and what kind of financial aide the school could offer her.

Almost any independent organization that investigates the value of college degrees will tell you that for the most part (in some situations it's not the case) it's not the name of the school but the person getting the degree. This is epic consumer stupidity...it's like paying $100,000 for a crappy house instead of $20,000 for a good one (I know these aren't realistic prices for houses, humor me) because the latter one looks cooler.

I blame Clyde mainejeff.

Reagan's, for destroying the middle class' ability to send their kids to college.

Pwns wrote:In this case, it is the girl's fault and I do not feel the least bit sorry for her. She and her mom were obsessed with getting into the school with the biggest name and they weren't paying any attention to things like tuition costs, the cost-of-living in the area where the school is located, and what kind of financial aide the school could offer her.

Almost any independent organization that investigates the value of college degrees will tell you that for the most part (in some situations it's not the case) it's not the name of the school but the person getting the degree. This is epic consumer stupidity...it's like paying $100,000 for a crappy house instead of $20,000 for a good one (I know these aren't realistic prices for houses, humor me) because the latter one looks cooler.

Grizalltheway wrote:Reagan's, for destroying the middle class' ability to send their kids to college.

Really? Then how did my brother and I go to college?

I'd like to put some fault for the outrageous loans for the people in charge of deciding who gets need based scholarships and grants.


If I don't qualify, but someone whose family makes three times what my family does (my parents combined don't break 50K working 55 and 70 hours a week respectively) the system is clearly fucked up.


Yes, I realize more goes into it than just what your family makes, however, in terms of medical bills that my parents face due to my mothers kidney issues we should have qualified. However, I'm white..

I blame this growing American mentality that school is everything to everyone, and that it's the key to success. I'm all for doing what you believe in and what you're good at and enjoy, but not everything needs a degree. But businesses are at fault here too. There are a lot of jobs that don't really need degrees, but businesses still demand them...and it's created this vicious cycle of people going to school to stay competitive with other people who think they need a degree to stay competitive too.

I'm all for as many Americans being educated, but there are some things you can teach yourself (mostly concerning liberal arts), and others you can't. I'm a women's studies minor and enjoyed it a lot, but looking back it now, I very much think I could've taught myself the issue without the papers I had to write and money I had to spend to prove I knew the subject.

∞∞∞ wrote:I blame this growing American mentality that school is everything to everyone, and that it's the key to success. I'm all for doing what you believe in and what you're good at and enjoy, but not everything needs a degree. But businesses are at fault here too. There are a lot of jobs that don't really need degrees, but businesses still demand them...and it's created this vicious cycle of people going to school to stay competitive with other people who think they need a degree to stay competitive too.

I'm all for as many Americans being educated, but there are some things you can teach yourself (mostly concerning liberal arts), and others you can't. I'm a women's studies minor and enjoyed it a lot, but looking back it now, I very much think I could've taught myself the issue without the papers I had to write to prove I knew the subject.

Agreed completely.

I graduated one class short of a minor in Women's Studies and one class short of a minor in Psychology. I would say that almost everything I learned in the Women's Studies classes, and even my major (minus the theories and what not) could be learned on the job, and even the theories could be learned/implemented on the go.


The real issue is that the AA is so looked down on that every one is wanted to get bachelor degrees. We need more kids to go into 2 year tech degrees.

clenz wrote:The real issue is that the AA is so looked down on that every one is wanted to get bachelor degrees. We need more kids to go into 2 year tech degrees.

This! I don't know about your areas, but around mine, it's like they're taboo. You can make plenty of money with 2 year tech degrees and do what you enjoy, but people look down on them. It's either college or bust...and people forget there's this intermediary option available to them. Simply put, not everyone is made for a four-year degree and that's absolutely fine! I'd rather have a bunch of people with two year degrees than four year college dropouts with a mountain of debt, or a person with a somewhat worthless degree. There's nothing wrong with dropping out, but that's money and spots for kids who could've finished the degree wasted.

∞∞∞ wrote:

clenz wrote:The real issue is that the AA is so looked down on that every one is wanted to get bachelor degrees. We need more kids to go into 2 year tech degrees.

This! I don't know about your areas, but around mine, it's like they're taboo. You can make plenty of money with 2 year tech degrees and do what you enjoy, but people look down on them. It's either college or bust...and people forget there's this intermediary option available to them. Simply put, not everyone is made for a four-year degree and that's absolutely fine! I'd rather have a bunch of people with two year degrees than four year college dropouts with a mountain of debt, or a person with a somewhat worthless degree. There's nothing wrong with dropping out, but that's money and spots for kids who could've finished the degree wasted.

If I could go back to when I decided to transfer out of Wartburg College to Hawkeye Community College I would go into a 2 year electrical program or something like that. I'd make more doing that with about 1/4th the debt.

We need more of those degrees

Grizalltheway wrote:Reagan's, for destroying the middle class' ability to send their kids to college.

Not biting.

In this particular case, it's clearly the student's fault. She was taking these loans out when she was 20 or 21 years old - at some point, you have to be an adult and realize what decisions you are making. Perhaps she should have considered taking a math class or a finance class while at NYU so that she could understand how loans get paid back and the fact that she would need to generate an income to do so? But she wanted to go to NYU, just like she wants to live in San Francisco now (never mind the cost of living, it's what she wants to do) so I can't feel a lot of sympathy for her. She wasn't a child when she took on this debt and there were plenty of other, less costly places to go to school that would've given her just the same level of education.

On the larger scope, I think that's why I can't necessarily blame the colleges for trying to get all the money they can - people are clammoring to go to these colleges and they're just taking advantage of the demand. Government should shoulder a lot of blame here as they've made loans so available that colleges are doing everything in their power to grab that free money and they are doing it. But if people would just use some common sense and realize that paying close to $50k per year for schools like villanova, or Providence, when you could be paying $15k per year for Penn State (main campus even) is just ludicrous - outside of the Ivies, and even then it's questionable, no school over 4 years is worth $200k, but thousands of people make that decision every year. Stupid is as stupid does and those people, like this girl, are just plain stupid.

SuperHornet wrote:
1. Schools setting tuition WAY too high.

Partly true. A lot of the recent increases in tuition have to deal with states cutting state schools budgets. However, all the universities I've been to/visited have this "build build build" mentality even though most of it's unnecessary. It's a slippery slope.

dgreco wrote: but she should stop deferring and taking on interest and begin paying.

She's still enrolled in classes so she can defer her loans without accruing interest.

JMU DJ wrote:

SuperHornet wrote:
1. Schools setting tuition WAY too high.

Partly true. A lot of the recent increases in tuition have to deal with states cutting state schools budgets. However, all the universities I've been to/visited have this "build build build" mentality even though most of it's unnecessary. It's a slippery slope.

dgreco wrote: but she should stop deferring and taking on interest and begin paying.

She's still enrolled in classes so she can defer her loans without accruing interest.

The deferring as far as mine are concerned (I have stafford & plus loans through nelnet) allows you to not have payments, but not stop interest accruing.

All loans except certain staffords (subsidized) accrue interest even while you are enrolled. I have had all my loans accrue almost 2,000 in interest while continuing my education.

As for the tuition rise I think the private schools are most at fault, on average they have an increase of 7-10% a year. Schools make the news when they only increase 3-4%. The private schools build newer and nicer buildings and then it makes the public schools reactionary to keep pace.

There's nothing wrong with liberal arts majors like that. You pretty much have to go to graduate school if you want a good job... but, the same is true with most any undergrad degree.

Skjellyfetti wrote:There's nothing wrong with liberal arts majors like that. You pretty much have to go to graduate school if you want a good job... but, the same is true with most any undergrad degree.

Sadly it is true, most jobs are Masters required or preferred now. It is almost impossible to get a good accounting job without an MSA/MST/MBA and you will be gone within 5 years if you do not get your CPA. Do not have much knowledge in other fields, but I from what I have heard and seen they all require some advanced degree beyond the BA or BS.

dgreco wrote: The deferring as far as mine are concerned (I have stafford & plus loans through nelnet) allows you to not have payments, but not stop interest accruing.

All loans except certain staffords (subsidized) accrue interest even while you are enrolled. I have had all my loans accrue almost 2,000 in interest while continuing my education.

True, hopefully this girl in the story got some subsidized loans considering her substantial need. However, my fiance was able to obtain private loans that did not accrue interest until she graduated from college... I don't know how they all work, I just know mine were/still are subsidized and haven't accrued a penny since I enrolled in college and won't until I'm done with graduate school.

dgreco wrote: As for the tuition rise I think the private schools are most at fault, on average they have an increase of 7-10% a year. Schools make the news when they only increase 3-4%. The private schools build newer and nicer buildings and then it makes the public schools reactionary to keep pace.

I'm just going off state budget cuts/board of regents cuts of recent history. I know Cali, Jersey, Georgia, Virginia, AZ etc are all hiking up the rates of state schools due to recent cuts. I don't think private schools are raising rates by that high of a percentage, at least I haven't seen that data. What I have read is a recent survey of 20+ private schools who are raising rates by 4.2% next year, as compared with 4.7% the previous. However, public schools like W&M and UVA are increasing rates by 9%... and I don't think either of those schools are being reactionary to keep up with the pace of privates considering they are two of the top schools (public or private), in the nation. I think rates are just collectively being raised across the board. Then again, I also haven't done much research on the topic besides what I've heard around GA and from family and friend in VA.

A friend of mine insists that high school counselors should be required to sit down with each graduate and say, "look, here is how much your school is going to cost you, here is what you can expect (mean, median, and minimum) to make per year with your intended major, and here is the ratio of job opening to applicants in that field. Does this all add up?" May that would help people at least think to add a fall-back or more practical second major if they are doing something obscure and/or difficult to get in to.

I also like the rule of thumb that says you shouldn't take on educational debt that is greater than your expected first year salary upon graduation.

JMU DJ wrote:

dgreco wrote: The deferring as far as mine are concerned (I have stafford & plus loans through nelnet) allows you to not have payments, but not stop interest accruing.

All loans except certain staffords (subsidized) accrue interest even while you are enrolled. I have had all my loans accrue almost 2,000 in interest while continuing my education.

True, hopefully this girl in the story got some subsidized loans considering her substantial need. However, my fiance was able to obtain private loans that did not accrue interest until she graduated from college... I don't know how they all work, I just know mine were/still are subsidized and haven't accrued a penny since I enrolled in college and won't until I'm done with graduate school.

dgreco wrote: As for the tuition rise I think the private schools are most at fault, on average they have an increase of 7-10% a year. Schools make the news when they only increase 3-4%. The private schools build newer and nicer buildings and then it makes the public schools reactionary to keep pace.

I'm just going off state budget cuts/board of regents cuts of recent history. I know Cali, Jersey, Georgia, Virginia, AZ etc are all hiking up the rates of state schools due to recent cuts. I don't think private schools are raising rates by that high of a percentage, at least I haven't seen that data. What I have read is a recent survey of 20+ private schools who are raising rates by 4.2% next year, as compared with 4.7% the previous. However, public schools like W&M and UVA are increasing rates by 9%... and I don't think either of those schools are being reactionary to keep up with the pace of privates considering they are two of the top schools (public or private), in the nation. I think rates are just collectively being raised across the board. Then again, I also haven't done much research on the topic besides what I've heard around GA and from family and friend in VA.

I went back and looked at some articles and I was off with the numbers, nationally they rose 6.6% last year and privates were 6.3% (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21420361/Article" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). I think the budget cuts have hurt schools, but W&M and UVA are not your average state schools. Schools that have buildings mostly from late 60's-early 70's have been hurting (aesthetically). They are not remodeling classic old buildings, they are trying to knock down cement blocks and build glass blocks now. Capital campaigns to improve all facilities has been most schools goals and unfortunately almost every school lost significant amounts of their endowments and are redirecting their capital contributions.

Here is a PDF to show some of the big hits in endowments. http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/researc ... Values.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In Virginia, W&M, UVA,Va Tech, and JMU accept 3rd yr transfers from Thomas Nelson CC (tuition $2,300). She could have applied herself there and transferred to a prestige name school at a fraction of the cost she would have payed for 4 yrs at one of those schools. I think the likes of US News and World Report school rankings do prospective students and parents an injustice, rating schools by their reputation among academics, not by employers etc. Those ratings may be fine for students who are clearly bound for PhD, MD, and JD degrees, but for students who will not likely be pursuing post graduate education school rankings by a different set of criteria---cost effectiveness, employability, etc should be available.