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Here's the progression or development process93henfan wrote:I saw a story yesterday where it was just noticed, through spectral imaging, on the draft that Jefferson crossed out "subjects" and wrote "citizens". Give 'em hell, TJ!
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer ... ce-ro.html
just change citizen to corporation in the declaration of independence 
In your face JoltinJoe and all of those who think government and the people are not the same.Letter to Roger C. Weightman
Thomas Jefferson
June 24, 1826
"The kind invitation I receive from you on the part of the citizens of the city of Washington, to be present with them at their celebration of the 50th anniversary of American independence, as one of the surviving signers of an instrument pregnant with our own, and the fate of the world, is most flattering to myself, and heightened by the honorable accompaniment proposed for the comfort of such a journey. It adds sensibly to the sufferings of sickness, to be deprived by it of a personal participation in the rejoicings of that day. But acquiescence is a duty, under circumstances not placed among those we are permitted to controul. I should, indeed, with peculiar delight, have met and exchanged there, congratulations personally with the small band, the remnant of that host of worthies, who joined with us, on that day, in the bold and doubtful election we were to make, for our country, between submission, or the sword; and to have enjoyed with them the consolatory fact that our fellow citizens, after half a century of experience and prosperity, continue to approve the choice we made. May it be to the world what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all), the Signal of arousing men to burst the chains, under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self government. That form which we have substituted restores the free right to the unbounded exercise of reason and freedom of opinion. All eyes are opened, or opening to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born ,with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of god. These are grounds of hope for others. For ourselves, let the annual return of this day forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them. ... "
Not sure how this impacts our discussion or refutes my assertion that the government governs only with the consent of the people and derives its authority from the people, in Jefferson's estimation.kalm wrote:In your face JoltinJoe and all of those who think government and the people are not the same.Letter to Roger C. Weightman
Thomas Jefferson
June 24, 1826
"The kind invitation I receive from you on the part of the citizens of the city of Washington, to be present with them at their celebration of the 50th anniversary of American independence, as one of the surviving signers of an instrument pregnant with our own, and the fate of the world, is most flattering to myself, and heightened by the honorable accompaniment proposed for the comfort of such a journey. It adds sensibly to the sufferings of sickness, to be deprived by it of a personal participation in the rejoicings of that day. But acquiescence is a duty, under circumstances not placed among those we are permitted to controul. I should, indeed, with peculiar delight, have met and exchanged there, congratulations personally with the small band, the remnant of that host of worthies, who joined with us, on that day, in the bold and doubtful election we were to make, for our country, between submission, or the sword; and to have enjoyed with them the consolatory fact that our fellow citizens, after half a century of experience and prosperity, continue to approve the choice we made. May it be to the world what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all), the Signal of arousing men to burst the chains, under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self government. That form which we have substituted restores the free right to the unbounded exercise of reason and freedom of opinion. All eyes are opened, or opening to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born ,with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of god. These are grounds of hope for others. For ourselves, let the annual return of this day forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them. ... "
Damn communists....And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
By todays conk standards most of them would be.∞∞∞ wrote:Damn communists....And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
Hope y'all had a great 4th!
If you are a "progressive" or even a liberal, not in the current political climate, anyway.JoltinJoe wrote: Not sure how this impacts our discussion or refutes my assertion that the government governs only with the consent of the people and derives its authority from the people, in Jefferson's estimation.
Is that a Liberal thing..?Baldy wrote:If you are a "progressive" or even a liberal, not in the current political climate, anyway.JoltinJoe wrote: Not sure how this impacts our discussion or refutes my assertion that the government governs only with the consent of the people and derives its authority from the people, in Jefferson's estimation.
They would much rather jam unpopular political initiatives down the people's throat.
It's sad.
no bush was a nazi remember? keep it straight CleetsyChizzang wrote:Is that a Liberal thing..?Baldy wrote: If you are a "progressive" or even a liberal, not in the current political climate, anyway.
They would much rather jam unpopular political initiatives down the people's throat.
It's sad.
So are you saying Bush was a Liberal
citdog wrote:no bush was a nazi remember? keep it straight CleetsyChizzang wrote:
Is that a Liberal thing..?
So are you saying Bush was a Liberal
To my knowledge, Beck has never called Obama a Nazi, only a Communist.Chizzang wrote:citdog wrote:
no bush was a nazi remember? keep it straight Cleetsy
Wait... but Glen Beck says Obama is a Nazi...
You should know... Glen Beck is your masterBaldy wrote:To my knowledge, Beck has never called Obama a Nazi, only a Communist.Chizzang wrote:
Wait... but Glen Beck says Obama is a Nazi...
Just like Obama owns you...lock, stock, and barrel.Chizzang wrote:You should know... Glen Beck is your masterBaldy wrote: To my knowledge, Beck has never called Obama a Nazi, only a Communist.
This part:JoltinJoe wrote:Not sure how this impacts our discussion or refutes my assertion that the government governs only with the consent of the people and derives its authority from the people, in Jefferson's estimation.kalm wrote:
In your face JoltinJoe and all of those who think government and the people are not the same.
As per our previous conversation whether government is the people. I agree with your above statements about consent and authority, but how can you have Thomas Jefferson's "self government" if the people and the government are not one in the same?"May it be to the world what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all), the Signal of arousing men to burst the chains, under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self government."
Jefferson was not saying that the federal government and the "people" were one when he used terms like "self government." By this term, Jefferson simply meant that the people controlled the federal government. Jefferson plainly claimed that the fundamental rights of the individual were greater than the collective rights of the government. That viewpoint is impossible to logically hold if you believe that the government is "the people."kalm wrote:This part:JoltinJoe wrote:
Not sure how this impacts our discussion or refutes my assertion that the government governs only with the consent of the people and derives its authority from the people, in Jefferson's estimation.
As per our previous conversation whether government is the people. I agree with your above statements about consent and authority, but how can you have Thomas Jefferson's "self government" if the people and the government are not one in the same?"May it be to the world what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all), the Signal of arousing men to burst the chains, under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self government."
So now you're taking the "self" out of self government? Interesting. I would have thought he was referring to democracy.JoltinJoe wrote:Jefferson was not saying that the federal government and the "people" were one when he used terms like "self government." By this term, Jefferson simply meant that the people controlled the federal government. Jefferson plainly claimed that the fundamental rights of the individual were greater than the collective rights of the government. That viewpoint is impossible to logically hold if you believe that the government is "the people."kalm wrote:
This part:
As per our previous conversation whether government is the people. I agree with your above statements about consent and authority, but how can you have Thomas Jefferson's "self government" if the people and the government are not one in the same?
Guess who?So the Blues Brothers had it right - the Union really was on a mission from God??OL FU wrote:Probably not the right thread, but what the heck.
I sent out some happy 4th text to some of our esteemed members and ask one of them if he was celebrating. Here is the reply
" No Sir. Independence Day is 20 December. This day is only the anniversary of the long trek back from the stone wall of Gettysburg. We were so close to watering our horses in the Susquehenna River and the victory that only the Lord of the Hosts could have denied us"
That's pretty much what I thought. You mean God didn't want the south to winGannonFan wrote:So the Blues Brothers had it right - the Union really was on a mission from God??OL FU wrote:Probably not the right thread, but what the heck.
I sent out some happy 4th text to some of our esteemed members and ask one of them if he was celebrating. Here is the reply
" No Sir. Independence Day is 20 December. This day is only the anniversary of the long trek back from the stone wall of Gettysburg. We were so close to watering our horses in the Susquehenna River and the victory that only the Lord of the Hosts could have denied us"
Soulman/DungeonJoe wrote a thesis @ LSU about the history of the 4th of July, he could probably tell you more stuff about it than most on here even from the Confederate perspectiveOL FU wrote:Probably not the right thread, but what the heck.
I sent out some happy 4th text to some of our esteemed members and ask one of them if he was celebrating. Here is the reply
" No Sir. Independence Day is 20 December. This day is only the anniversary of the long trek back from the stone wall of Gettysburg. We were so close to watering our horses in the Susquehenna River and the victory that only the Lord of the Hosts could have denied us"
[youtube][/youtube]Baldy wrote:To my knowledge, Beck has never called Obama a Nazi, only a Communist.Chizzang wrote:
Wait... but Glen Beck says Obama is a Nazi...