Page 1 of 2
The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:32 am
by 93henfan
I just read an article on CNN about a PFC from Potomac, MD being charged with leaking a classified video of some Apache pilots whacking a group of civilians in Iraq, which included two Reuters photographers. While what the PFC did was certainly a terrible thing and he should be rightfully punished, I see the conduct of the Apache pilots as a far bigger issue. The video is pretty appalling:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/06/u- ... eo/?hpt=T2
It's amazing that these cowboy pilots are up there confidently requesting clearance to shoot guys with AK-47s and RPGs that turned out to be cameras. Nice work bozos.
Yeah, i know it's a tough job, but c'mon. Those guys were terribly, terribly negligent here and need to be disciplined as well. The cavalier attitude is what really pisses me off. It reminds me of the Air Force yahoos that said "stick a fork in 'em" as they were shooting down an Army helicopter back during the no fly zone years. Just shear stupidity that gives the other 99% of our military that does things the right way a bad name.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:35 am
by AZGrizFan
Well, if they haven't been already I'd be surprised, and if they haven't been already they certainly WILL be. Our government doesn't miss an opportunity like that to draw and quarter members of the military.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:45 am
by ASUG8
That's a little hard to watch - I know your senses have to be heightened in that environment, but playing Monday morning QB I don't see anything resembling a weapon at all. What's scary is the confidence level they all demonstrated that they were certain they'd see weapons and even shots fired at them.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:46 am
by Chizzang
Team America World Police...
It's just collateral damage - a small price to pay for their families and loved ones - to keep the world safe
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:03 am
by andy7171
while it didn't look like weapons those camera guys were carrying, that guy peeking around the corner would have freaked me out too.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:09 am
by 93henfan
andy7171 wrote:while it didn't look like weapons those camera guys were carrying, that guy peeking around the corner would have freaked me out too.
Even if you gave them the benefit of that doubt, the fact that they blast the civilian van that comes to pick up the wounded, kids in it and all, is completely inexcusable. The segment with the soldiers pulling the wounded/(dead?) children out of the van just makes me sick.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:30 am
by Baldy
Don't see what the big deal is here. The Reuters journalists weren't carrying weapons but it was crystal clear this time as it was the last time I saw this footage that there were several insurgents with them who were. Just look at the 1:00 mark, the two men on the top left are clearly carrying AK's, and there are at least a couple more who are carrying RPG's in other parts of the video.
Oh well, if you're a journalist, embed yourself with insurgents, and get killed, it's your own damn fault.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:07 am
by Benne
Regardless of the video, that PFC should be court marshalled for leaking classified video. There was a reason for it being classified, let johnny jihad sue for freedom of information.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:20 am
by Chizzang
Just wondering: Do the camera men count as abortions..?
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:27 am
by Baldy
Chizzang wrote:Just wondering: Do the camera men count as abortions..?
Darwin Award nominees.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:39 am
by andy7171
Upon further review...
There were guys with rifles and RPGs. The radio said there were no US forces in that part of town. If you are stupid enough to imbed yourself with our enemy, how can you not expect to get shot(at) and killed?
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:14 pm
by clenz
It sure as hell looked like those guys had guns and RPG's. Hell in the video you can see shots being fired back.
Sad that they were killed, but they were running with the wrong crowd that day
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:33 pm
by 93henfan
I'll admit I was locked onto the two reporters the first time I watched and did not notice the guys with weapons. I'll assume the ROE gave the pilots the right to open up on them in the middle of a crowded neighborhood. I still take exception to the cavalier attitude. Just get the kill and move on. You're ending the lives of fellow humans and it's not something to be proud of or give high fives over.
They were still wrong to obliterate a casualty recovery vehicle. Certainly they didn't have the foresight to know they were killing or maiming innocent children, but then again, that's why you don't treat your job as a turkey shoot. If you're in it for medals and bodycounts, you're just a sick fuck.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:42 pm
by Chizzang
93henfan wrote:I'll admit I was locked onto the two reporters the first time I watched and did not notice the guys with weapons. I'll assume the ROE gave the pilots the right to open up on them in the middle of a crowded neighborhood. I still take exception to the cavalier attitude. Just get the kill and move on. You're ending the lives of fellow humans and it's not something to be proud of or give high fives over.
They were still wrong to obliterate a casualty recovery vehicle. Certainly they didn't have the foresight to know they were killing or maiming innocent children, but then again, that's why you don't treat your job as a turkey shoot. If you're in it for medals and bodycounts, you're just a sick fuck.
There's a disconnect in your observation
I don't believe you can train Army Men (or whoever) to kill and simultaneously "respect Life"
The only lives they respect are their own and the lives of their team members - beyond that, you're either an objective or an obstacle and there can be nothing in between - gray area is not for the Military - it's for politicians and philosophy
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:53 pm
by 93henfan
Chizzang wrote:93henfan wrote:I'll admit I was locked onto the two reporters the first time I watched and did not notice the guys with weapons. I'll assume the ROE gave the pilots the right to open up on them in the middle of a crowded neighborhood. I still take exception to the cavalier attitude. Just get the kill and move on. You're ending the lives of fellow humans and it's not something to be proud of or give high fives over.
They were still wrong to obliterate a casualty recovery vehicle. Certainly they didn't have the foresight to know they were killing or maiming innocent children, but then again, that's why you don't treat your job as a turkey shoot. If you're in it for medals and bodycounts, you're just a sick fuck.
There's a disconnect in your observation
I don't believe you can train Army Men (or whoever) to kill and simultaneously "respect Life"
The only lives they respect are their own and the lives of their team members - beyond that, you're either an objective or an obstacle and there can be nothing in between - gray area is not for the Military - it's for politicians and philosophy
You're wrong.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:56 pm
by clenz
Chizzang wrote:93henfan wrote:I'll admit I was locked onto the two reporters the first time I watched and did not notice the guys with weapons. I'll assume the ROE gave the pilots the right to open up on them in the middle of a crowded neighborhood. I still take exception to the cavalier attitude. Just get the kill and move on. You're ending the lives of fellow humans and it's not something to be proud of or give high fives over.
They were still wrong to obliterate a casualty recovery vehicle. Certainly they didn't have the foresight to know they were killing or maiming innocent children, but then again, that's why you don't treat your job as a turkey shoot. If you're in it for medals and bodycounts, you're just a sick fuck.
There's a disconnect in your observation
I don't believe you can train Army Men (or whoever) to kill and simultaneously "respect Life"
The only lives they respect are their own and the lives of their team members - beyond that, you're either an objective or an obstacle and there can be nothing in between - gray area is not for the Military - it's for politicians and philosophy
This. I know many in the marines who have served in Iraq/Afghanastan, etc... and it's kill or be killed. They aren't people if they pose a threat.
They are taught to yell HALT/FREEZE thee times before shooting, every single person I've talked to has said its shoot, then yell FREEZE, or yell FREEZE as you are shooting.
They don't go through hell during boot camp to learn to respect the life of their enemy.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:57 pm
by Chizzang
93henfan wrote:Chizzang wrote:
There's a disconnect in your observation
I don't believe you can train Army Men (or whoever) to kill and simultaneously "respect Life"
The only lives they respect are their own and the lives of their team members - beyond that, you're either an objective or an obstacle and there can be nothing in between - gray area is not for the Military - it's for politicians and philosophy
You're wrong.
There is very little evidence that humans can be trained to continually and like in this case enthusiastically take life and then somehow simultaneously respect it.... except if it's family or friend - otherwise... I think the banter on this video shows pretty clearly the general prevailing attitude
I'm not suggesting it's right or wrong... I'm just sayin'
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:58 pm
by 93henfan
clenz wrote:Chizzang wrote:
There's a disconnect in your observation
I don't believe you can train Army Men (or whoever) to kill and simultaneously "respect Life"
The only lives they respect are their own and the lives of their team members - beyond that, you're either an objective or an obstacle and there can be nothing in between - gray area is not for the Military - it's for politicians and philosophy
This. I know many in the marines who have served in Iraq/Afghanastan, etc... and it's kill or be killed. They aren't people if they pose a threat.
They are taught to yell HALT/FREEZE thee times before shooting, every single person I've talked to has said its shoot, then yell FREEZE, or yell FREEZE as you are shooting.
They don't go through hell during boot camp to learn to respect the life of their enemy.
Trust me, clenz. I've been through the majority of the schooling that the Marine Corps offers and they do not teach you to kill with no regard.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:59 pm
by Chizzang
Chizzang wrote:93henfan wrote:
You're wrong.
fully half the dead are civilians - and they were firing all over that neighborhood - god only knows how many kids and grandmas we're capped in their living rooms - the fire was all over the place...
You don't do that if you're "worried" about something
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:05 pm
by travelinman67
Chizzang wrote:93henfan wrote:
You're wrong.
There is very little evidence that humans can be trained to continually and like in this case enthusiastically take life and then somehow simultaneously respect it.... except if it's family or friend - otherwise... I think the banter on this video shows pretty clearly the general prevailing attitude
I'm not suggesting it's right or wrong... I'm just sayin'
Hippie, there are two emotional behaviors demonstrated by the pilots...
...the "hunt"...
...which is pursued enthusiastically with no regard to compassion...
...and the "kill"...
...the moment the "trigger" is pulled and a life is extinguished.
Few people who've been "trained" to pull the trigger DO NOT contemplate the severity of their action at the moment they take a life. If you can't fathom that, then all I can say is you have to walk in the shoes to understand.
Part of the training is understanding that by taking the life of a "threat", you're saving many more lives. It's never "the joy of the kill", but the relief knowing at the end of the day, you can rest knowing others may safely rest also.
As for the embedded reporters...
...I've viewed the video numerous times and read third party (security consultant) analysis. The kills were "good". The reporters made a mistake being that close to armed insurgents acting furtively.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:17 pm
by Chizzang
travelinman67 wrote:Chizzang wrote:
There is very little evidence that humans can be trained to continually and like in this case enthusiastically take life and then somehow simultaneously respect it.... except if it's family or friend - otherwise... I think the banter on this video shows pretty clearly the general prevailing attitude
I'm not suggesting it's right or wrong... I'm just sayin'
Hippie, there are two emotional behaviors demonstrated by the pilots...
...the "hunt"...
...which is pursued enthusiastically with no regard to compassion...
...and the "kill"...
...the moment the "trigger" is pulled and a life is extinguished.
Few people who've been "trained" to pull the trigger DO NOT contemplate the severity of their action at the moment they take a life. If you can't fathom that, then all I can say is you have to walk in the shoes to understand.
Part of the training is understanding that by taking the life of a "threat", you're saving many more lives. It's never "the joy of the kill", but the relief knowing at the end of the day, you can rest knowing others may safely rest also.
As for the embedded reporters...
...I've viewed the video numerous times and read third party (security consultant) analysis. The kills were "good". The reporters made a mistake being that close to armed insurgents acting furtively.
Grampa...
Don't confuse me with somebody who gives a sh!t - I'm not judging at all, I'm observing...
I don't care if they carpet bomb schools and yell Yippee
But it is funny to have this video right after our fabulous Abortion thread...
So I can actively watch the Anti-abortion people explain away the collateral damage of children and citizens
whatever helps you sleep buddy
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:25 pm
by blueballs
Bradley is a traitor who should never see the light of day again.
As for the two reporters, I'm sure their mamas told them that they "are the company they keep." Hang out with the enemy and you are an accessory to the crime and you get a large dose of lead.
Sucks for them but the heroes in the chopper did absolutely nothing wrong...
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:22 pm
by BDKJMU
Baldy wrote:Don't see what the big deal is here. The Reuters journalists weren't carrying weapons
but it was crystal clear this time as it was the last time I saw this footage that there were several insurgents with them who were. Just look at the 1:00 mark, the two men on the top left are clearly carrying AK's, and there are at least a couple more who are carrying RPG's in other parts of the video.
Oh well, if you're a journalist, embed yourself with insurgents, and get killed, it's your own damn fault.
andy7171 wrote:Upon further review...
There were guys with rifles and RPGs. The radio said there were no US forces in that part of town. If you are stupid enough to imbed yourself with our enemy, how can you not expect to get shot(at) and killed?
clenz wrote:It sure as hell looked like those guys had guns and RPG's. Hell in the video you can see shots being fired back.
Sad that they were killed, but they were running with the wrong crowd that day
Ditto. I saw in addition to the guys with the cameras several carrying what looked like to be long guns or RPGs.
What the f*ck were these Reuters reporters doing hanging out with these insurgents? And how stupid a reporter can you be, with a bunch of insurgents carrying weapons, and you yourself stand at the corner of a building and point your large camera/video camera that from a distance can easily be mistaken for a weapon (about 1:25 mark of film) at a military helicopter? That looked like an RPG tube sticking out from the corner of the building.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:26 pm
by BDKJMU
ASUG8 wrote:That's a little hard to watch - I know your senses have to be heightened in that environment, but playing Monday morning QB
I don't see anything resembling a weapon at all. What's scary is the confidence level they all demonstrated that they were certain they'd see weapons and even shots fired at them.
Then son you need to make an appointment ASAP to have your eyes checked.
Re: The Importance of Positive Target Identification
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:32 pm
by BDKJMU
blueballs wrote:Bradley is a traitor who should never see the light of day again.
As for the two reporters, I'm sure their mamas told them that they "are the company they keep." Hang out with the enemy and you are an accessory to the crime and you get a large dose of lead.
Sucks for them but the heroes in the chopper did absolutely nothing wrong...
Agreed. I hope Bradley spends many a year in Leavenworth. My ? is why did a PFC have access to classified film?
Ditto. As far as you could tell from the film, it was reasonable to assume that that van was driven by insurgents coming to pick up their fellow wounded & dead insurgents. How were the army pilots suppose to know there was a couple of kids in the van?
Some of the army personnel may have had a bit of a cowboy attitude, but they're in the middle of a combat zone dealing with the fog of war in which the enemy isn't wearing uniforms.