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In 1500, Columbus wrote to a friend:

"A hundred castellanoes (a Spanish coin) are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten (years old) are now in demand."

A substantial amount of the money used by Queen Isabella to finance the explorations of Columbus came from the seizure and sale of properties owned by Spanish Jews and Muslims. On March 30, 1492, she issued an edict demanding that Jews either convert to Catholicism, leave the country, or be executed.

Quoted from We Were Not the Savages

"The event that led European Nations to destroy many of the civilizations of two continents, and drastically diminish the remainder, resulted from what was an almost impossible accident of fate. If it had not already occurred, it would be virtually impossible to envision.

In 1492, Christopher Columbus, on a sea voyage to chart a shortcut to the Indies, funded by Queen Isabella of Spain, set the stage for the rape of American civilizations by going astray at sea. By chance he eventually landed on a small island in the Caribbean sea populated by a defenseless and friendly pacifist race of people, the Taino. These people were ripe for picking by unscrupulous men, and Columbus and his crew pillaged with impunity. The blind luck that led him to land on this small defenseless island instead of somewhere else along the thousands of miles of North and South American coastline-where people wouldn't have been so complacent-is akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

In retrospect, if he had instead landed in a non-pacifist country, such as that of the Iroquois or Maya, history would have turned out differently. Their Warriors would have fought back ferociously, very probably ending his voyage on the American side of the Atlantic. If this had happened, and no Europeans had appeared for another century, population growth and technology development would have reduced the possibility of European colonization considerably. However, history turned out the way it did and no amount of fantasizing can change that.

Columbus, thinking he was in the Indies, did not waste time paying lip service to the pretence that he was importing "shining" European ideals to the people he mistakenly labelled Indians. Instead he wrote in his journal: "We can send from here, in the name of the Holy Trinity, all the slaves and Brazil wood which could be sold." True to the intent of these words, he initiated the Amerindian slave harvest on his first voyage. When he embarked from the Americas for Spain, it was with a cargo of five hundred Native Americans to be sold on the continental slave markets. Upon landing at Seville, only about three hundred of these unfortunate souls were still alive. These and booty were turned over to Queen Isabella.

The news of the riches offered by Hispaniola and surrounding islands soon spread across Europe. The notion of fabulous wealth for the picking was like a magnet for other European Nations. Within a few years, harvesters from Spain and other European countries were travelling from island to island seeking artifacts, precious metals, spices, and human beings for enslavement. The cruel assault mounted by these people against the defenseless and non-aggressive Taino, who had numbered in the millions in 1492, was so effective that forty years later they were virtually extinct."

AZGrizFan wrote:Christopher Columbus didn't invent "taking lands from indigenous peoples", and he sure as HELL didn't invent slavery.

Another massive fail by D1B.

JoltinJoe wrote:As usual, it is time for the D1B fact check.

First, the claim that Columbus introduced the AmerIndian slave trade is not correct. Subsequent explorers certainly did, but Columbus did not. Keep in mind that the purpose of Columbus' exploration was to find trade routes to the Far East.

Second, the claim that Isabella financed Columbus' exploration from the seizure and sale of properties owned by Jews and Muslims is unfounded, although it is true she did direct that Jews convert or leave Spain.

Third, the population of the Tainos neither numbered in the millions (that claim is considered a gross exaggeration) nor was systematically slaughtered by the Spanish explorers and colonists. The Taino disappeared through inter-marriage and because of their inability to combat European diseases against which they had no immunity. The Spanish colonists did exploit the Taino economically and treated them poorly. But you can hardly blame the Catholic Church for that. Indeed, the cruelty of the Spanish explorers and colonnists toward the indigenus native American population are only known to us because of the reports of Catholic clergy who had accompanied the explorers/colonists (in the case of the Tainos, the most authoratative source is the Dominican priest, Bartolome de las Casas). The Catholic Church supported Spain's efforts to fund explorations to find new trade routes to the far East, but it issued numerous condemnations of the treatment of the native Americans as it continued to receive disturbing reports from priests who witnessed the events unfolding in the new Spanish colonies. Also during the 1500s, the Catholic Church issued a number of encyclicals in in which it reaffirmed its opposition to the slave trade and slave holding, and this was done largely because of events in the New World.

It is a valid point whether Columbus deserves to be honored. But as usual D1B is using this forum to advance false facts and accusations in is his on-going irrational vendetta against Catholicism.

We now return you to D1B's on-going distortions and tirades.

travelinman67 wrote:I'm puzzled...

...how can YOU (D1B), promote abstinence, contraception, infanticide, govt. funded sterilization, to "slow" population growth which you declare is destroying the planet...

...yet be upset by genocide?

Since you have devalue life, what difference does it make how population control is accomplished?

JoltinJoe wrote:As usual, it is time for the D1B fact check.

First, the claim that Columbus introduced the AmerIndian slave trade is not correct. Subsequent explorers certainly did, but Columbus did not. Keep in mind that the purpose of Columbus' exploration was to find trade routes to the Far East.

Second, the claim that Isabella financed Columbus' exploration from the seizure and sale of properties owned by Jews and Muslims is unfounded, although it is true she did direct that Jews convert or leave Spain.

Third, the population of the Tainos neither numbered in the millions (that claim is considered a gross exaggeration) nor was systematically slaughtered by the Spanish explorers and colonists. The Taino disappeared through inter-marriage and because of their inability to combat European diseases against which they had no immunity. The Spanish colonists did exploit the Taino economically and treated them poorly. But you can hardly blame the Catholic Church for that. Indeed, the cruelty of the Spanish explorers and colonnists toward the indigenus native American population are only known to us because of the reports of Catholic clergy who had accompanied the explorers/colonists (in the case of the Tainos, the most authoratative source is the Dominican priest, Bartolome de las Casas). The Catholic Church supported Spain's efforts to fund explorations to find new trade routes to the far East, but it issued numerous condemnations of the treatment of the native Americans as it continued to receive disturbing reports from priests who witnessed the events unfolding in the new Spanish colonies. Also during the 1500s, the Catholic Church issued a number of encyclicals in in which it reaffirmed its opposition to the slave trade and slave holding, and this was done largely because of events in the New World.

It is a valid point whether Columbus deserves to be honored. But as usual D1B is using this forum to advance false facts and accusations in is his on-going irrational vendetta against Catholicism.

We now return you to D1B's on-going distortions and tirades.

By the 18th century, Taíno society had been devastated by introduced diseases such as smallpox, as well as other problems like intermarriages and forced assimilation into the plantation economy that Spain imposed in its Caribbean colonies, with its subsequent importation of African slave workers.

D1B wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:As usual, it is time for the D1B fact check.

First, the claim that Columbus introduced the AmerIndian slave trade is not correct. Subsequent explorers certainly did, but Columbus did not. Keep in mind that the purpose of Columbus' exploration was to find trade routes to the Far East.

Second, the claim that Isabella financed Columbus' exploration from the seizure and sale of properties owned by Jews and Muslims is unfounded, although it is true she did direct that Jews convert or leave Spain.

Third, the population of the Tainos neither numbered in the millions (that claim is considered a gross exaggeration) nor was systematically slaughtered by the Spanish explorers and colonists. The Taino disappeared through inter-marriage and because of their inability to combat European diseases against which they had no immunity. The Spanish colonists did exploit the Taino economically and treated them poorly. But you can hardly blame the Catholic Church for that. Indeed, the cruelty of the Spanish explorers and colonnists toward the indigenus native American population are only known to us because of the reports of Catholic clergy who had accompanied the explorers/colonists (in the case of the Tainos, the most authoratative source is the Dominican priest, Bartolome de las Casas). The Catholic Church supported Spain's efforts to fund explorations to find new trade routes to the far East, but it issued numerous condemnations of the treatment of the native Americans as it continued to receive disturbing reports from priests who witnessed the events unfolding in the new Spanish colonies. Also during the 1500s, the Catholic Church issued a number of encyclicals in in which it reaffirmed its opposition to the slave trade and slave holding, and this was done largely because of events in the New World.

It is a valid point whether Columbus deserves to be honored. But as usual D1B is using this forum to advance false facts and accusations in is his on-going irrational vendetta against Catholicism.

We now return you to D1B's on-going distortions and tirades.

God Joe you are a **** liar with no peer. Shameless distortion of facts, much of which is the ugly truth for Catholics.

Catholics wrote history books for 2000 years so it should come as no surprise for idiots like you to come up with the dribble above.

Almost all modern historians and scholars acknowledge the brutality of Columbus and subsequent Catholic exlorers on the Americas.

Stunning, absolutely stunning your dishonesty and dedication to your cult.

**** you Liar Joe - piece of Catholic ****.

JoltinJoe wrote:As usual, it is time for the D1B fact check.

First, the claim that Columbus introduced the AmerIndian slave trade is not correct. Subsequent explorers certainly did, but Columbus did not. Keep in mind that the purpose of Columbus' exploration was to find trade routes to the Far East.

Second, the claim that Isabella financed Columbus' exploration from the seizure and sale of properties owned by Jews and Muslims is unfounded, although it is true she did direct that Jews convert or leave Spain.

Third, the population of the Tainos neither numbered in the millions (that claim is considered a gross exaggeration) nor was systematically slaughtered by the Spanish explorers and colonists. The Taino disappeared through inter-marriage and because of their inability to combat European diseases against which they had no immunity. The Spanish colonists did exploit the Taino economically and treated them poorly. But you can hardly blame the Catholic Church for that. Indeed, the cruelty of the Spanish explorers and colonnists toward the indigenus native American population are only known to us because of the reports of Catholic clergy who had accompanied the explorers/colonists (in the case of the Tainos, the most authoratative source is the Dominican priest, Bartolome de las Casas). The Catholic Church supported Spain's efforts to fund explorations to find new trade routes to the far East, but it issued numerous condemnations of the treatment of the native Americans as it continued to receive disturbing reports from priests who witnessed the events unfolding in the new Spanish colonies. Also during the 1500s, the Catholic Church issued a number of encyclicals in in which it reaffirmed its opposition to the slave trade and slave holding, and this was done largely because of events in the New World.

It is a valid point whether Columbus deserves to be honored. But as usual D1B is using this forum to advance false facts and accusations in is his on-going irrational vendetta against Catholicism.

We now return you to D1B's on-going distortions and tirades.

Yet in an April, 1493, letter to Luis de Santangel (a patron who helped fund the first voyage), Columbus made clear that the people he encountered had done nothing to deserve ill treatment. According to Columbus:


"they are artless and generous with what they have, to such a degree as no one would believe but him who had seen it. Of anything they have, if it be asked for, they never say no, but do rather invite the person to accept it, and show as much lovingness as though they would give their hearts." [7]
Nonetheless, later in the letter Columbus went on to say:


"their Highnesses may see that I shall give them as much gold as they need .... and slaves as many as they shall order to be shipped." [8]

Nonetheless, the Pope's declaration ultimately had dire consequences for native inhabitants of the Americas. Beginning in 1514 Spanish conquerors adopted "the Requirement," an ultimatum in which Indians were forced to accept "the Church as the Ruler and Superior of the whole world" or face persecution. If Indians did not immediately comply, the Requirement warned them: 

"We shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their Highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do all the harm and damage that we can." [11] 

Often the Requirement was read to Indians without translation, or in some cases even from ships before crew members landed to kill Indians and take slaves. [12] 

JoltinJoe wrote:

D1B wrote:

God Joe you are a **** liar with no peer. Shameless distortion of facts, much of which is the ugly truth for Catholics.

Catholics wrote history books for 2000 years so it should come as no surprise for idiots like you to come up with the dribble above.

Almost all modern historians and scholars acknowledge the brutality of Columbus and subsequent Catholic exlorers on the Americas.

Stunning, absolutely stunning your dishonesty and dedication to your cult.

**** you Liar Joe - piece of Catholic ****.

Dribble??

You are a sad thing. Catholicism was not the cause of happened to native Americans. Yes, some of the Spanish explorers were Catholic but that doesn't mean they acted with the approval of the Catholic Church, or acted on behalf of the Catholic Church.

As noted, in fact, the Catholic Church spoke out against the enslavement and exploitation of the native Americans. Blaming Catholicism in this context is no different that blaming of all Islam for what happened on 9/11.

You have become an angry boor on these boards -- unintended self-parody.

And no one here respects you or trusts. You've been exposed over and over as a fraud

D1B wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
Dribble??

You are a sad thing. Catholicism was not the cause of happened to native Americans. Yes, some of the Spanish explorers were Catholic but that doesn't mean they acted with the approval of the Catholic Church, or acted on behalf of the Catholic Church.

As noted, in fact, the Catholic Church spoke out against the enslavement and exploitation of the native Americans. Blaming Catholicism in this context is no different that blaming of all Islam for what happened on 9/11.

You have become an angry boor on these boards -- unintended self-parody.

And no one here respects you or trusts. You've been exposed over and over as a fraud

Joe, again - they were ALL CATHOLIC - the funders, the Queen, the Pope, The sailors, Columbus - all catholic. Why don't you get this? The frenzy of greed, by the entire nation of catholics overcame common decency.

I find it ironic that the "savages" they encountered were more christlike than the catholics that brutalized them.

You and your church are a joke and have been for 2000 years. Sorry I have to be one to tell you.

JoltinJoe wrote:Hey, OSBF is on his side.

JoltinJoe wrote:No, Z ... no matter how many times he gets his head handed to him, he claims victory and moves along to his next beating ...

JoltinJoe wrote:No, Z ... no matter how many times he gets his head handed to him, he claims victory and moves along to his next beating ...

Hey, OSBF is on his side.

andy7171 wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:Hey, OSBF is on his side.

I think OSBF is Corky all growed up.

AZGrizFan wrote:
You know the only thing worse than a religous nut coming to my door and trying to push their religion onto me?

An atheist nut coming onto a FOOTBALL message board and trying to push THEIR agenda onto me.

OL FU wrote:

D1B wrote: Nice commentary, Joltin Joe.

Dang, thanks for the compliment.

JoltinJoe wrote:

OL FU wrote:
Dang, thanks for the compliment.

It's funny how D1B thinks it's an insult to call someone "JoltinJoe."

Here's how one of the smartest posters here, OL FU, responded to this recently.

JoltinJoe wrote:

D1B wrote:

Joe, again - they were ALL CATHOLIC - the funders, the Queen, the Pope, The sailors, Columbus - all catholic. Why don't you get this? The frenzy of greed, by the entire nation of catholics overcame common decency.

I find it ironic that the "savages" they encountered were more christlike than the catholics that brutalized them.

You and your church are a joke and have been for 2000 years. Sorry I have to be one to tell you.

You're pathetic and predictable. You twist all facts beyond recognition. Everything is the fault of the Catholic Church.

in the 1500s, The Catholic Church spoke out against the slave trade and the exploitation of native Americans. But today you blame the Catholic Church.

In the 1930s, the Catholic Church and its leadership spoke out against the Nazis -- in fact, the New York Times highlighted at that time that the Pope was the only world leader who dared to speak out at all (NYT editorial, 12/25/1941 and 12/25/1942). But you blame the Catholic Church for the Nazi movement and the Holocaust.

100 years from now, when abortion is outlawed as violence against a human life, DIIIB will be on these boards blaming the Catholics for legalized abortion during the late 20th and early 21st centuries.