Starve The Beast

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Starve The Beast

Post by kalm »

I'm on board with cutting spending, but if you're a deficit hawk, the high end tax breaks have to go too.

Grover Norquist, Steven Moore, Ronald Reagan...


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Some conservatives are starting to agree:
Steve Chapman: How starving government gets fatBy: Steven Chapman
Special to the Examiner

May 3, 2010 Sarah Palin may hunt moose with a rifle, but when she's out for bigger game, she relies on an unorthodox approach to bring down her quarry: deprive it of food. "Please, starve the beast!" she recently implored a Tea Party Express rally in Boston.
The critter in question is the federal government, which has been expanding like an oil spill in recent years. Palin's idea, a favorite among small-government advocates, is that the best way to shrink Washington is a permanent regimen of low taxes.

The theory is worth assessing as the president's debt commission grapples with ways to stop the gusher of red ink in Washington. It traces back to President Reagan.

"We can lecture our children about extravagance until we run out of voice and breath," he said in 1981. "Or we can cure their extravagance by simply reducing their allowance." With that in mind, he pushed through cuts in federal income tax rates.

Under Reagan, spending rose 22 percent (adjusted for inflation) and the government debt tripled. But Republicans have stuck to the strategy ever since.

When they began, this approach seemed worth a try. But 30 years later, confirmation is hard to find. Like Reagan, George W. Bush reduced income tax rates. In spite of that, inflation-adjusted federal outlays this year are 60 percent higher than they were the year Bush became president.

Advocates could write off this experience as a fluke or claim that without tax cuts, Big Government would be Ginormous Government. But new studies from economists at opposite ends of the political spectrum leave little doubt that even on half-rations, the beast never fails to feast.

The first documentation of this phenomenon came from the most unlikely source -- William Niskanen, who chaired the president's Council of Economic Advisers under ... Reagan. In 2006, he examined the evidence and mournfully admitted that "starve the beast just does not work."

Last year, University of California, Berkeley, economists Christina Romer (now head of President Obama's Council of Economic Advisers) and David Romer undertook an even more extensive review of the data and came to a similar conclusion.

"Following long-run tax cuts, government spending does not fall," they wrote in the Brookings Papers on Economic Activity. "Indeed, if anything, spending rises." In time, "tax cuts tend to lead to tax increases."

Tea Partiers may find it harder to ignore University of Alabama political scientist Michael New, an adjunct scholar at the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington.

Writing in the Cato Journal, he reports that "federal expenditures grow faster when revenues are relatively low." Even nondefense discretionary spending -- which excludes military costs and fast-growing entitlements -- experiences a growth spurt when taxes are cut, according to New.

This really shouldn't be surprising. In the first place, cutting taxes doesn't deprive the government of funds as long as it can tap the credit markets on a vast scale. Locking up the ice cream does no good if there's an endless supply of burgers and fries.

In the second place, cutting taxes instead of spending is seductively pleasant. It lets citizens enjoy more government services at no extra cost on April 15.

Forced to pay for everything they get, right away, Americans would undoubtedly choose to make do with less. But given the opportunity to party now and pay later -- or never, if the tab can be billed to the next generation -- they find no compelling reason to do without.

Think of it this way. If you want people to consume more of something, you reduce the price. If you want them to consume less, you raise the price. For most of the last 30 years, federal programs have been on sale, and they've found lots of buyers.

That's how the low-tax strategy has worked in practice. So if we are going to reduce the size of the federal government, we can't rely on starving the beast. We will have to tackle it and wrestle it to the mat.



Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... z154uu22Xi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 37759.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:I'm on board with cutting spending, but if you're a deficit hawk, the high end tax breaks have to go too.

Grover Norquist, Steven Moore, Ronald Reagan...


Image

Some conservatives are starting to agree:
"Following long-run tax cuts, government spending does not fall," they wrote in the Brookings Papers on Economic Activity. "Indeed, if anything, spending rises." In time, "tax cuts tend to lead to tax increases."
Yeah, no shit, sherlock. The issue here isn't tax cuts, the issue is the government's inability to curb spending. At SOME point, you gotta pay the piper.

Forced to pay for everything they get, right away, Americans would undoubtedly choose to make do with less. But given the opportunity to party now and pay later -- or never, if the tab can be billed to the next generation -- they find no compelling reason to do without.

Think of it this way. If you want people to consume more of something, you reduce the price. If you want them to consume less, you raise the price. For most of the last 30 years, federal programs have been on sale, and they've found lots of buyers.
How about you think of it THIS way: The American mentality is buy now, pay later. Did they get that mindset from the government, or did the government get that mindset from us?

Perhaps the issue isn't taxes OR spending, but the Government's access to unlimted supplies of easy, cheap credit. Look where that's gotten the American public?
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by Appaholic »

I don't disagree. All the more reason to elminate income tax, insttitute fair/flat tax & have the users of government services pay for the services. These "user fee" taxes can be subsidized with Sales Tax. Those who want to be less taxes can use less services and/or buy less goods. Right now, demanding lower taxes but not demanding our legislators make the associated reductions in government services financed by the same taxes is akin to a parent giving a 21-yr old college student a CC and continuing to pay off their monthly balance.
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by blueballs »

The problem isn't, nor was it ever, the tax payers- all 51% of us which is problem unto itself- being undertaxed. The problem is the politicians using public funds to buy votes/pay off consituencies.


http://www.fairtax.org
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by kalm »

blueballs wrote:The problem isn't, nor was it ever, the tax payers- all 51% of us which is problem unto itself- being undertaxed. The problem is the politicians using public funds to buy votes/pay off consituencies.


http://www.fairtax.org
The fact that half of Americans don't pay income tax at all can support both sides of the debate. As always, I'm coming at this from a perspective of what is best for the middle class, and the last 30 years of low top marginal and corporate tax rates have clearly contributed to a widening wealth gap and increasing national and personal debt.
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote: The fact that half of Americans don't pay income tax at all can support both sides of the debate. As always, I'm coming at this from a perspective of what is best for the middle class, and the last 30 years of low top marginal and corporate tax rates have clearly contributed to a widening wealth gap and increasing national and personal debt.
:rofl:

I just spit iced tea all over my keyboard...

What's best for the middle class (especially when unemployment is knocking on 10%) is not raising taxes on those evil, disgusting "rich" people. You know, the ones who actually create jobs in this country. :roll:
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by Ibanez »

kalm wrote:I'm on board with cutting spending, but if you're a deficit hawk, the high end tax breaks have to go too.

Grover Norquist, Steven Moore, Ronald Reagan...


Image

Some conservatives are starting to agree:
Steve Chapman: How starving government gets fatBy: Steven Chapman
Special to the Examiner

May 3, 2010 Sarah Palin may hunt moose with a rifle, but when she's out for bigger game, she relies on an unorthodox approach to bring down her quarry: deprive it of food. "Please, starve the beast!" she recently implored a Tea Party Express rally in Boston.
The critter in question is the federal government, which has been expanding like an oil spill in recent years. Palin's idea, a favorite among small-government advocates, is that the best way to shrink Washington is a permanent regimen of low taxes.

The theory is worth assessing as the president's debt commission grapples with ways to stop the gusher of red ink in Washington. It traces back to President Reagan.

"We can lecture our children about extravagance until we run out of voice and breath," he said in 1981. "Or we can cure their extravagance by simply reducing their allowance." With that in mind, he pushed through cuts in federal income tax rates.

Under Reagan, spending rose 22 percent (adjusted for inflation) and the government debt tripled. But Republicans have stuck to the strategy ever since.

When they began, this approach seemed worth a try. But 30 years later, confirmation is hard to find. Like Reagan, George W. Bush reduced income tax rates. In spite of that, inflation-adjusted federal outlays this year are 60 percent higher than they were the year Bush became president.

Advocates could write off this experience as a fluke or claim that without tax cuts, Big Government would be Ginormous Government. But new studies from economists at opposite ends of the political spectrum leave little doubt that even on half-rations, the beast never fails to feast.

The first documentation of this phenomenon came from the most unlikely source -- William Niskanen, who chaired the president's Council of Economic Advisers under ... Reagan. In 2006, he examined the evidence and mournfully admitted that "starve the beast just does not work."

Last year, University of California, Berkeley, economists Christina Romer (now head of President Obama's Council of Economic Advisers) and David Romer undertook an even more extensive review of the data and came to a similar conclusion.

"Following long-run tax cuts, government spending does not fall," they wrote in the Brookings Papers on Economic Activity. "Indeed, if anything, spending rises." In time, "tax cuts tend to lead to tax increases."

Tea Partiers may find it harder to ignore University of Alabama political scientist Michael New, an adjunct scholar at the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington.

Writing in the Cato Journal, he reports that "federal expenditures grow faster when revenues are relatively low." Even nondefense discretionary spending -- which excludes military costs and fast-growing entitlements -- experiences a growth spurt when taxes are cut, according to New.

This really shouldn't be surprising. In the first place, cutting taxes doesn't deprive the government of funds as long as it can tap the credit markets on a vast scale. Locking up the ice cream does no good if there's an endless supply of burgers and fries.

In the second place, cutting taxes instead of spending is seductively pleasant. It lets citizens enjoy more government services at no extra cost on April 15.

Forced to pay for everything they get, right away, Americans would undoubtedly choose to make do with less. But given the opportunity to party now and pay later -- or never, if the tab can be billed to the next generation -- they find no compelling reason to do without.

Think of it this way. If you want people to consume more of something, you reduce the price. If you want them to consume less, you raise the price. For most of the last 30 years, federal programs have been on sale, and they've found lots of buyers.

That's how the low-tax strategy has worked in practice. So if we are going to reduce the size of the federal government, we can't rely on starving the beast. We will have to tackle it and wrestle it to the mat.



Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... z154uu22Xi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 37759.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thw quote feature is meant to quote lines or a paragraph. Not the entire article.
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote: The fact that half of Americans don't pay income tax at all can support both sides of the debate. As always, I'm coming at this from a perspective of what is best for the middle class, and the last 30 years of low top marginal and corporate tax rates have clearly contributed to a widening wealth gap and increasing national and personal debt.
:rofl:

I just spit iced tea all over my keyboard...

What's best for the middle class (especially when unemployment is knocking on 10%) is not raising taxes on those evil, disgusting "rich" people. You know, the ones who actually create jobs in this country. :roll:
Small businesses and small business owner should get an acception. But with the exception of 3% under Clinton, we've been not raising taxes on corporations and the rich for since Reagan. :nod:
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote:
:rofl:

I just spit iced tea all over my keyboard...

What's best for the middle class (especially when unemployment is knocking on 10%) is not raising taxes on those evil, disgusting "rich" people. You know, the ones who actually create jobs in this country. :roll:
Small businesses and small business owner should get an acception. But with the exception of 3% under Clinton, we've been not raising taxes on corporations and the rich for since Reagan. :nod:
So are you saying that we should raise the corporate tax rate as a growth strategy?
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
Small businesses and small business owner should get an acception. But with the exception of 3% under Clinton, we've been not raising taxes on corporations and the rich for since Reagan. :nod:
So are you saying that we should raise the corporate tax rate as a growth strategy?
Not neccessarily, but corporations have benefited greatly from U.S. government spending and pay far less in effective rates than they use to. Close the loopholes and cut the subsidies.
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote:
kalm wrote:I'm on board with cutting spending, but if you're a deficit hawk, the high end tax breaks have to go too.

Grover Norquist, Steven Moore, Ronald Reagan...


Image

Some conservatives are starting to agree:



http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 37759.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thw quote feature is meant to quote lines or a paragraph. Not the entire article.
Got it.
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
So are you saying that we should raise the corporate tax rate as a growth strategy?
Not neccessarily, but corporations have benefited greatly from U.S. government spending and pay far less in effective rates than they use to. Close the loopholes and cut the subsidies.
I agree that they pay less today than they have before, but it's also easy to see that they've taken advantage of much less corporate tax rates elsewhere. It's not as easy as you would make it out to be to simply make them pay more and not risk damage to employment here in the US (or to expect that this will somehow increase employment in the US). It's a small world anymore, and we just can't pretend that much smaller corporate tax rates don't exist everywhere else in the world.
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
Not neccessarily, but corporations have benefited greatly from U.S. government spending and pay far less in effective rates than they use to. Close the loopholes and cut the subsidies.
I agree that they pay less today than they have before, but it's also easy to see that they've taken advantage of much less corporate tax rates elsewhere. It's not as easy as you would make it out to be to simply make them pay more and not risk damage to employment here in the US (or to expect that this will somehow increase employment in the US). It's a small world anymore, and we just can't pretend that much smaller corporate tax rates don't exist everywhere else in the world.
I've used this example before, but the U.S. military provides stability to the middle east, protects oil rich companies, and keeps the shipping lanes open. Exxon Mobile paid no federal income tax in 2008.

Hell, foreign oil corporations should be paying U.S. income tax. :ohno:
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by Cap'n Cat »

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote: The fact that half of Americans don't pay income tax at all can support both sides of the debate. As always, I'm coming at this from a perspective of what is best for the middle class, and the last 30 years of low top marginal and corporate tax rates have clearly contributed to a widening wealth gap and increasing national and personal debt.
:rofl:

I just spit iced tea all over my keyboard...

What's best for the middle class (especially when unemployment is knocking on 10%) is not raising taxes on those evil, disgusting "rich" people. You know, the ones who actually create jobs in this country. :roll:

Myth. They just get richer.

:coffee:
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by CitadelGrad »

Cap'n Cat wrote:
Baldy wrote:
:rofl:

I just spit iced tea all over my keyboard...

What's best for the middle class (especially when unemployment is knocking on 10%) is not raising taxes on those evil, disgusting "rich" people. You know, the ones who actually create jobs in this country. :roll:

Myth. They just get richer.
Um, so it's the poor who actually create jobs in this country? OK. Got it. Glad you cleared that up for me.
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by Grizalltheway »

GannonFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
Small businesses and small business owner should get an acception. But with the exception of 3% under Clinton, we've been not raising taxes on corporations and the rich for since Reagan. :nod:
So are you saying that we should raise the corporate tax rate as a growth strategy?
Most corporations are hoarding cash right now, NOT creating jobs. :coffee:
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by AZGrizFan »

Grizalltheway wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
So are you saying that we should raise the corporate tax rate as a growth strategy?
Most corporations are hoarding cash right now, NOT creating jobs. :coffee:
That's because they're waiting for the financial impact of all the fucked up Obama policies to impact their bottom lines.
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by Cap'n Cat »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
Most corporations are hoarding cash right now, NOT creating jobs. :coffee:
That's because they're waiting for the financial impact of all the fucked up Obama policies to impact their bottom lines.

Another in a long line of gross Conk generalizations from our friend in the desert.

:ohno:
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by AZGrizFan »

Cap'n Cat wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
That's because they're waiting for the financial impact of all the fucked up Obama policies to impact their bottom lines.

Another in a long line of gross Conk generalizations from our friend in the desert.

:ohno:
When you start running a company impacted by Obama's fucked up policies, let me know. :coffee:
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by Cap'n Cat »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Cap'n Cat wrote:

Another in a long line of gross Conk generalizations from our friend in the desert.

:ohno:
When you start running a company impacted by Obama's long-needed corrections of decades-long Conk greed and fucked up policies, let me know. :coffee:


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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by AZGrizFan »

Cap'n Cat wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote: When you start running a company impacted by Obama's long-needed corrections of decades-long Conk greed and fucked up policies, let me know. :coffee:


FIFY
I know, I know. In your mind "Government good, business bad". :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by Cap'n Cat »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Cap'n Cat wrote:


FIFY
I know, I know. In your mind "Government good, business bad". :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:


Quite the contrary, Brother Z. "Business good when she obeys the rules."


:dunce: :dunce: :dunce:
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by 89Hen »

Cap'n Cat wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
I know, I know. In your mind "Government good, business bad". :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:


Quite the contrary, Brother Z. "Business good when she obeys the rules."


:dunce: :dunce: :dunce:
Um, that's really not "the contrary". If anything it's just another way of saying the same thing.
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by CitadelGrad »

Grizalltheway wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
So are you saying that we should raise the corporate tax rate as a growth strategy?
Most corporations are hoarding cash right now, NOT creating jobs. :coffee:
Where exactly would you suggest they put their money now? Maybe they could buy 30-year Treasuries and wait for interest rates to go up with the inflation that the Fed seems desperate to create.
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Re: Starve The Beast

Post by Chizzang »

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote: The fact that half of Americans don't pay income tax at all can support both sides of the debate. As always, I'm coming at this from a perspective of what is best for the middle class, and the last 30 years of low top marginal and corporate tax rates have clearly contributed to a widening wealth gap and increasing national and personal debt.
:rofl:

I just spit iced tea all over my keyboard...

What's best for the middle class (especially when unemployment is knocking on 10%) is not raising taxes on those evil, disgusting "rich" people. You know, the ones who actually create jobs in this country. :roll:

0f the half of Americans that do not pay taxes - what percentage of that number are multi-billionaires...
It goes both ways: I pay more taxes than my brother - who has dozens of houses in the Seattle Market and 4 automobiles a half dozen company vehicles and on and on and on...

He makes more money in a week than I make in a year...

I pay more taxes than he does :nod: Baldy, sometimes you're just wrong
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