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Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:27 pm
by travelinman67
Dem accomplices not able to finish con-job; Chicago Climate Exchange forced to shut down, move on to next scam.


Like a puff of smoke, Chicago Climate Exchange just fades away

By: Barbara Hollingsworth
11/08/10 4:20 PM EST


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 12278.html
In August, The Examiner reported that the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) was laying off employees.

Two months later, drowned out by the hubbub of the mid-term elections, came an Oct. 21 announcement that CCX would end carbon trading which, as PajamasMedia’s Steve Milloy pointed out, was “the only purpose for which it was founded.”

Funded by the left-wing Joyce Foundation, whose former board included none other than future president Barack Obama, Northwestern University professor Richard Sandor set up CCX as a “voluntary” method of trading “carbon credits.” It was envisioned as the main clearinghouse for what would eventually have been a $10 trillion decidedly non-voluntary market had cap-and-trade legislation passed the Senate as it did the House.

Former Fannie Mae CEO Franklin Raines had already secured a patent for technology to extend carbon trading at CCX to individual residences. Had things gone according to plan, every business, non-profit organization and home in America that emitted carbon – which is all of them – would have formed an enormous revenue stream for savvy insiders such as Al Gore’s Generation Investment Management and Goldman Sachs — CCX’s two largest investors – while imposing a crippling energy tax on everybody else.

:clap:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:39 pm
by Appaholic
Cap-n-trade? More like Blow-n-go......

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:53 pm
by HI54UNI
Thank god. No we just need to get the EPA under control.

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:43 pm
by kalm
Phew, I'm glad we dodged that near catastrophe. Now I can still go fishing. Thanks Examiner. :thumb:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:27 pm
by BlueHen86
HI54UNI wrote:Thank god. No we just need to get the EPA under control.
What is the EPA doing that you have a problem with?

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:35 am
by travelinman67
BlueHen86 wrote:
HI54UNI wrote:Thank god. No we just need to get the EPA under control.
What is the EPA doing that you have a problem with?
Destroying America's productivity.

Seriously, BlueHen86...

...if you've ever run a business that deals with manufacturing or land use, you wouldn't ask that question.

The EPA's mission isn't environmental protection, it's purpose is use of regulatory process to generate fine revenue by ending manufacturing, large-scale agriculture, and ANY land development (even for the purpose of developing so-called "sustainable" infrastructure).
When we look back in 50 years, America will understand the mistake made by Chaptering an "Environment Protection Agency".

As the U.S. continues to fade into third-world status, maybe Americans should be asking themselves what the developing nations, as well China, India and Southeast Asia are doing differently from the U.S.:

None have created an environmental agency with authority to directly interfere with business without having to first go through executive/legislative bodies to review their proposed actions...

...and none have laws empowering unionization ABOVE Public Policy.

Get a clue, or be prepared to live in a hut heated by a campfire.

:coffee:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:51 am
by kalm
travelinman67 wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote:
What is the EPA doing that you have a problem with?
Destroying America's productivity.

Seriously, BlueHen86...

...if you've ever run a business that deals with manufacturing or land use, you wouldn't ask that question.

The EPA's mission isn't environmental protection, it's purpose is use of regulatory process to generate fine revenue by ending manufacturing, large-scale agriculture, and ANY land development (even for the purpose of developing so-called "sustainable" infrastructure).
When we look back in 50 years, America will understand the mistake made by Chaptering an "Environment Protection Agency".

As the U.S. continues to fade into third-world status, maybe Americans should be asking themselves what the developing nations, as well China, India and Southeast Asia are doing differently from the U.S.:

None have created an environmental agency with authority to directly interfere with business without having to first go through executive/legislative bodies to review their proposed actions...

...and none have laws empowering unionization ABOVE Public Policy.

Get a clue, or be prepared to live in a hut heated by a campfire.

:coffee:
And how's their standard of living?

Can EPA be overbearing? Of course. Do some companies cause widespread environmental destruction and public health hazards? Of course. It's a matter of striking a fair balance in the best interest of the public.

Environmental damage and low wages are moral issues as much as economic - meaning there's more to life than money and stock prices. We've chosen as a society to not have our rivers catch fire, lower the level of smog in our urban areas, and pay people a decent wage. Most Americans are ok with that.

I'll trade you more sensible EPA regulations in exchange for a more protectionist trade policy.

EEEEPA. EEEEEEEEEEEEEPAAAAAAAAA! :thumb:

Image

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:54 pm
by AZGrizFan
travelinman67 wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote:
What is the EPA doing that you have a problem with?
Destroying America's productivity.

Seriously, BlueHen86...

...if you've ever run a business that deals with manufacturing or land use, you wouldn't ask that question.

The EPA's mission isn't environmental protection, it's purpose is use of regulatory process to generate fine revenue by ending manufacturing, large-scale agriculture, and ANY land development (even for the purpose of developing so-called "sustainable" infrastructure).
When we look back in 50 years, America will understand the mistake made by Chaptering an "Environment Protection Agency".

As the U.S. continues to fade into third-world status, maybe Americans should be asking themselves what the developing nations, as well China, India and Southeast Asia are doing differently from the U.S.:

None have created an environmental agency with authority to directly interfere with business without having to first go through executive/legislative bodies to review their proposed actions...

...and none have laws empowering unionization ABOVE Public Policy.

Get a clue, or be prepared to live in a hut heated by a campfire.

:coffee:
Ever been to Korea, T-Man?

If that's your shining example of "a developing nation" without the hindrance of an EPA-like agency, I want NO part of it. Sure, the EPA may be overbearing, but left to our own vices, human nature is to rape and pillage without SOME kind of intervetion.

No thanks.

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:05 pm
by BlueHen86
travelinman67 wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote:
What is the EPA doing that you have a problem with?
Destroying America's productivity.

Seriously, BlueHen86...

...if you've ever run a business that deals with manufacturing or land use, you wouldn't ask that question.

The EPA's mission isn't environmental protection, it's purpose is use of regulatory process to generate fine revenue by ending manufacturing, large-scale agriculture, and ANY land development (even for the purpose of developing so-called "sustainable" infrastructure).
When we look back in 50 years, America will understand the mistake made by Chaptering an "Environment Protection Agency".

As the U.S. continues to fade into third-world status, maybe Americans should be asking themselves what the developing nations, as well China, India and Southeast Asia are doing differently from the U.S.:

None have created an environmental agency with authority to directly interfere with business without having to first go through executive/legislative bodies to review their proposed actions...

...and none have laws empowering unionization ABOVE Public Policy.

Get a clue, or be prepared to live in a hut heated by a campfire.

:coffee:
China? Seriously? I ask about the EPA and you give me China? The country that puts lead in everything and then exports it to the U.S. Given a choice between China nad the EPA, I'll take the EPA.

Right now, Haliburton is pumping chemical laden water (a process called hydraulic fracking) into parts of Pennsylvania in an effort to obtain natural gas. They wouldn't say what chemicals are in the water, so the EPA had to subpoena them.

You see, there are people who live near where this is taking place and they drink well water. Well water that is now being contaminated by Haliburton and the only thing that will stop Haliburton is the EPA.

Fuck big business, I'll take the EPA any day.

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:06 pm
by BlueHen86
AZGrizFan wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:
Destroying America's productivity.

Seriously, BlueHen86...

...if you've ever run a business that deals with manufacturing or land use, you wouldn't ask that question.

The EPA's mission isn't environmental protection, it's purpose is use of regulatory process to generate fine revenue by ending manufacturing, large-scale agriculture, and ANY land development (even for the purpose of developing so-called "sustainable" infrastructure).
When we look back in 50 years, America will understand the mistake made by Chaptering an "Environment Protection Agency".

As the U.S. continues to fade into third-world status, maybe Americans should be asking themselves what the developing nations, as well China, India and Southeast Asia are doing differently from the U.S.:

None have created an environmental agency with authority to directly interfere with business without having to first go through executive/legislative bodies to review their proposed actions...

...and none have laws empowering unionization ABOVE Public Policy.

Get a clue, or be prepared to live in a hut heated by a campfire.

:coffee:
Ever been to Korea, T-Man?

If that's your shining example of "a developing nation" without the hindrance of an EPA-like agency, I want NO part of it. Sure, the EPA may be overbearing, but left to our own vices, human nature is to rape and pillage without SOME kind of intervetion.

No thanks.
:+1:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:58 pm
by Chizzang
T-man
If I give you a glass of the water that actually catches on fire - yeah - Tap water that has a flammability rating... would you drink it.. of course not - but - Halliburton expects Americans to drink that - that's how they roll

The last time I checked tap water should be rated anywhere near Diesel fuel on the flammability chart

I think I'll take an over ambitious EPA instead of unchecked corporate greed :nod:





:check:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:23 pm
by HI54UNI
Of course we need EPA/environmental regulations. Unfortunately it appears that common sense has gone out the window.

A couple of examples that I've dealt with:

Wastewater treatment plant discharges into a man made stream that goes 8 miles into a small creek which goes another 20 miles before it enters a major river. At times in the summer the only reason the man made stream has water in it is because of the wastewater treatment plant and generally is no more than 1 foot deep. EPA rules declare this man made stream as fishable and swimable because it goes into the river 28 miles downstream from the plant. This means the treatment plant has to spend over $1 million in upgrades in a town of 1800 people so they can remove 99% of the material instead of 98%. But a farmer's cattle can stand in that same small stream 1 mile south of the plant and take a piss or shit right in the stream and it doesn't matter.

Clean drinking water rules require tests of the drinking water for certain chemicals/substances. This is good. However EPA mandates tests for every water utility in the country rather than looking at things regionally. So in IOWA we have to test for pineapple herbicide, chemicals that come from oil refining, farm herbicides, etc. Now I can understand farm heribicides for IOWA but why should we have to test for pineapple herbicide or from oil refining byproducts? Or even have us test one or two times for those and then if it is clean not have to test again for a period of years instead of having to test annually?

EPA is coming out with all kinds of clean air rules. One covers diesel generators than run an average of 25 hours a year. EPA is requiring us to install catalytic converters on these units if we want to be able to use them for grid support, peak shaving, transmission maintenance and other items. The cost of installing the catalytic converters is about $100,000 a unit depending on the size. But if we don't install the units we can't use them for these purposes. With that cost it will make the electricity from these units cost about 60-65 cents a kwh because they run so little. What's stupid is if we designate them as "emergency only" we can run them as many hours as we want with no pollution controls. Tings like grid support and transmission maintenance don't count as emergencies. So if I want to maintain my line so it doesn't fall down I can't run without pollution controls but if I let it fall down and then choose to fix it I can run without any limitations.

:wall: :wall:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:50 pm
by Chizzang
HI54UNI wrote:Of course we need EPA/environmental regulations. Unfortunately it appears that common sense has gone out the window.

A couple of examples that I've dealt with:

Wastewater treatment plant discharges into a man made stream that goes 8 miles into a small creek which goes another 20 miles before it enters a major river. At times in the summer the only reason the man made stream has water in it is because of the wastewater treatment plant and generally is no more than 1 foot deep. EPA rules declare this man made stream as fishable and swimable because it goes into the river 28 miles downstream from the plant. This means the treatment plant has to spend over $1 million in upgrades in a town of 1800 people so they can remove 99% of the material instead of 98%. But a farmer's cattle can stand in that same small stream 1 mile south of the plant and take a piss or shit right in the stream and it doesn't matter.

Clean drinking water rules require tests of the drinking water for certain chemicals/substances. This is good. However EPA mandates tests for every water utility in the country rather than looking at things regionally. So in IOWA we have to test for pineapple herbicide, chemicals that come from oil refining, farm herbicides, etc. Now I can understand farm heribicides for IOWA but why should we have to test for pineapple herbicide or from oil refining byproducts? Or even have us test one or two times for those and then if it is clean not have to test again for a period of years instead of having to test annually?

EPA is coming out with all kinds of clean air rules. One covers diesel generators than run an average of 25 hours a year. EPA is requiring us to install catalytic converters on these units if we want to be able to use them for grid support, peak shaving, transmission maintenance and other items. The cost of installing the catalytic converters is about $100,000 a unit depending on the size. But if we don't install the units we can't use them for these purposes. With that cost it will make the electricity from these units cost about 60-65 cents a kwh because they run so little. What's stupid is if we designate them as "emergency only" we can run them as many hours as we want with no pollution controls. Tings like grid support and transmission maintenance don't count as emergencies. So if I want to maintain my line so it doesn't fall down I can't run without pollution controls but if I let it fall down and then choose to fix it I can run without any limitations.

:wall: :wall:
Given the above - which are legitimate complaints - or flammable tap water

It's a toss up but I'll go with mildly annoying over regulation...


:coffee:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:49 am
by travelinman67
Funny that those who praise EPA, have jobs that don't require interaction with the agency... :roll:

HI5 is spot on, and I can cite firsthand an endless list of bizarre EPA instigated actions needlessly costing American businesses and homeowners thousands every day...

...A contractor in Elko, in business for 17 years, on the same 5 acre, flat upaved lot, east of town, when they graded 1 acre of the land for parking, received a fine, and demand to conduct an environmental study and submit a stormwater runoff plan within 30 days...OR, in lieu of the study, could pay a $3,800 mitigation fee to the FEDERAL EPA...paid the fee, hired an environmental consultant to prepare the SWPP, at a cost of $1,700, then spent another 3 days installing a box culvert along the edge of their property: A property surrounded by arid "high desert"...

...Every diesel powered piece of construction equipment in the State of CA MUST BE INSPECTED AND REGISTERED, with CA EPA...every piece...even a 5hp generator...cement mixer...transfer pump...everything...

...Witnessed one of my clients, installing a water main in Marin County...at 2:30p one afternoon...had parked a Bobcat on the jobsite...and Bobcat developed a fuel leak...lost about 5 gal diesel before they caught it...immediately called the main office...which shut down another jobsite across the Bay...to send over a backhoe on a trailer, transfer and crew to excavate 20 yards of topsoil, while simultaneously mobilizing a third party hazmat testing lab to head to the jobsite...while three govt. inspectors played cellphone-circle jerk calling their bosses to see what laws were being violated. By 4:30p...two hours after the horrendous 5 gal spill...20 yard of soil had been removed, placed in a covered transfer and were enroute to a hazmat storage site in Sonoma, adminstrative staff had already filled out Federal paperwork required when there's a spill...and faxed it to the regional EPA office...while the inspectors and testing lab continued testing to determine the extent of the environmental "damage". We calc'd the 2 hour response cost at $42,000.

I've seen similar situations resolved by two workers with shovels and wheelbarrow digging up the saturated soil and spreading it out on tarps so the fuel can evaporate...at a cost of ~$50.

...A third generation rancher who refused to quitclaim 500 acres of his 1,500 acre ranch to an environmental group attempting to create a riparian watershed protection area along a creek. Two years and $50,000 in legal bills later, the EPA served him with a court order to relocate his livestock...after "finding" E-Coli bacteria in the wells on his property and in test wells they had drilled around the perimeter. Accusing him of "polluting" the water table (the closest potable water wells to his property were 2 miles away...a distance even their expert said was beyond the potential migration/plume), the EPA gave him the option of donating the 500 acres as "mitigation", constructing a tertiary water treatment plant to treat the groundwater, or simply stop raising livestock.
He sold the livestock, kept the land, retired, and publicly stated he'd shoot the next govt. employee that stepped foot on his land. I spoke with him about his decision. His plan: To outlive the envirowhackoism and continue ranching one day.

...Water treatment requirements so ridiculously stringent virtually every municipality in the U.S. has had to construct entirely new sewage treatment plants over the past 8 years...at a cost to the taxpayers in the hundreds of billions (personally, my cost for one of my properties is approx. $25k over 7 years.)...

...CA EPA air quality laws so mind-numbingly absurd, the leftislature has crafted motor vehicle maintenance/pollution standard laws so intricate and restrictive, owners end up junking cars after 8 years or risk paying punitive fees/costs to keep the vehicle on the road...a practice fine for individuals/businesses with hundreds of thousands in PR or disposable income, but too costly for most small businesses or middle class...

...Bans on building fireplaces in new homes...

...Bans on having fires in fireplaces where they exist...

...Charging campers with a Federal crime for shooting rattlesnakes along CA rivers (where they are "protected")...

...Mining moratoriums that in effect negate our nation's natural resource wealth...

...And an army of attorneys, govt. and private, gorging at the environmental law litigation trough...

:ohno:


AZ, Kalm, etc...

...you may rhetorically knock the Asian countries, but re: quality of life...they all have jobs, can feed their families without govt. aid, and healthcare is so readily available and decent, I have two friends (couples), one from China , the other from Indonesia, who when the wives became pregnant, "moved" back to their home countries to have their children. The Chinese family saved $35,000 by going "home". Those reduced costs don't come at the expense of quality of care, but from elimination of overhead expenses. It doesn't cost hundreds of millions/billions to construct a regional medical facility; millions annually to ensure "sustainable", bio-hazard-free, common areas...the list goes on and on and on...

...but don't knock those developing nations if you don't know what you're talking about.

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:29 am
by HI54UNI
Chizzang wrote:
HI54UNI wrote:Of course we need EPA/environmental regulations. Unfortunately it appears that common sense has gone out the window.

A couple of examples that I've dealt with:

Wastewater treatment plant discharges into a man made stream that goes 8 miles into a small creek which goes another 20 miles before it enters a major river. At times in the summer the only reason the man made stream has water in it is because of the wastewater treatment plant and generally is no more than 1 foot deep. EPA rules declare this man made stream as fishable and swimable because it goes into the river 28 miles downstream from the plant. This means the treatment plant has to spend over $1 million in upgrades in a town of 1800 people so they can remove 99% of the material instead of 98%. But a farmer's cattle can stand in that same small stream 1 mile south of the plant and take a piss or shit right in the stream and it doesn't matter.

Clean drinking water rules require tests of the drinking water for certain chemicals/substances. This is good. However EPA mandates tests for every water utility in the country rather than looking at things regionally. So in IOWA we have to test for pineapple herbicide, chemicals that come from oil refining, farm herbicides, etc. Now I can understand farm heribicides for IOWA but why should we have to test for pineapple herbicide or from oil refining byproducts? Or even have us test one or two times for those and then if it is clean not have to test again for a period of years instead of having to test annually?

EPA is coming out with all kinds of clean air rules. One covers diesel generators than run an average of 25 hours a year. EPA is requiring us to install catalytic converters on these units if we want to be able to use them for grid support, peak shaving, transmission maintenance and other items. The cost of installing the catalytic converters is about $100,000 a unit depending on the size. But if we don't install the units we can't use them for these purposes. With that cost it will make the electricity from these units cost about 60-65 cents a kwh because they run so little. What's stupid is if we designate them as "emergency only" we can run them as many hours as we want with no pollution controls. Tings like grid support and transmission maintenance don't count as emergencies. So if I want to maintain my line so it doesn't fall down I can't run without pollution controls but if I let it fall down and then choose to fix it I can run without any limitations.

:wall: :wall:
Given the above - which are legitimate complaints - or flammable tap water

It's a toss up but I'll go with mildly annoying over regulation...


:coffee:
That's a false argument and you know it. Nobody wants flaming tap water and EPA should be focusing its efforts on issues like that. The issue is the one size fits all stupidity coming out of EPA. There is no common sense at all. The wastewater treatment plant issue is costing Iowa taxpayers close to $1 billion for treatment plant improvements and is impacting 331 communities. The diesel generator issue is impacting about 90 Iowa communities and will cost nearly $20 million for compliance. The well testing issue cost my small community about $10,000 a year. Take that across the entire US and we are wasting a lot of money. Yet there is a town that still has flaming tap water......

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:04 am
by kalm
travelinman67 wrote:Funny that those who praise EPA, have jobs that don't require interaction with the agency... :roll:

HI5 is spot on, and I can cite firsthand an endless list of bizarre EPA instigated actions needlessly costing American businesses and homeowners thousands every day...

...A contractor in Elko, in business for 17 years, on the same 5 acre, flat upaved lot, east of town, when they graded 1 acre of the land for parking, received a fine, and demand to conduct an environmental study and submit a stormwater runoff plan within 30 days...OR, in lieu of the study, could pay a $3,800 mitigation fee to the FEDERAL EPA...paid the fee, hired an environmental consultant to prepare the SWPP, at a cost of $1,700, then spent another 3 days installing a box culvert along the edge of their property: A property surrounded by arid "high desert"...

...Every diesel powered piece of construction equipment in the State of CA MUST BE INSPECTED AND REGISTERED, with CA EPA...every piece...even a 5hp generator...cement mixer...transfer pump...everything...

...Witnessed one of my clients, installing a water main in Marin County...at 2:30p one afternoon...had parked a Bobcat on the jobsite...and Bobcat developed a fuel leak...lost about 5 gal diesel before they caught it...immediately called the main office...which shut down another jobsite across the Bay...to send over a backhoe on a trailer, transfer and crew to excavate 20 yards of topsoil, while simultaneously mobilizing a third party hazmat testing lab to head to the jobsite...while three govt. inspectors played cellphone-circle jerk calling their bosses to see what laws were being violated. By 4:30p...two hours after the horrendous 5 gal spill...20 yard of soil had been removed, placed in a covered transfer and were enroute to a hazmat storage site in Sonoma, adminstrative staff had already filled out Federal paperwork required when there's a spill...and faxed it to the regional EPA office...while the inspectors and testing lab continued testing to determine the extent of the environmental "damage". We calc'd the 2 hour response cost at $42,000.

I've seen similar situations resolved by two workers with shovels and wheelbarrow digging up the saturated soil and spreading it out on tarps so the fuel can evaporate...at a cost of ~$50.

...A third generation rancher who refused to quitclaim 500 acres of his 1,500 acre ranch to an environmental group attempting to create a riparian watershed protection area along a creek. Two years and $50,000 in legal bills later, the EPA served him with a court order to relocate his livestock...after "finding" E-Coli bacteria in the wells on his property and in test wells they had drilled around the perimeter. Accusing him of "polluting" the water table (the closest potable water wells to his property were 2 miles away...a distance even their expert said was beyond the potential migration/plume), the EPA gave him the option of donating the 500 acres as "mitigation", constructing a tertiary water treatment plant to treat the groundwater, or simply stop raising livestock.
He sold the livestock, kept the land, retired, and publicly stated he'd shoot the next govt. employee that stepped foot on his land. I spoke with him about his decision. His plan: To outlive the envirowhackoism and continue ranching one day.

...Water treatment requirements so ridiculously stringent virtually every municipality in the U.S. has had to construct entirely new sewage treatment plants over the past 8 years...at a cost to the taxpayers in the hundreds of billions (personally, my cost for one of my properties is approx. $25k over 7 years.)...

...CA EPA air quality laws so mind-numbingly absurd, the leftislature has crafted motor vehicle maintenance/pollution standard laws so intricate and restrictive, owners end up junking cars after 8 years or risk paying punitive fees/costs to keep the vehicle on the road...a practice fine for individuals/businesses with hundreds of thousands in PR or disposable income, but too costly for most small businesses or middle class...

...Bans on building fireplaces in new homes...

...Bans on having fires in fireplaces where they exist...

...Charging campers with a Federal crime for shooting rattlesnakes along CA rivers (where they are "protected")...

...Mining moratoriums that in effect negate our nation's natural resource wealth...

...And an army of attorneys, govt. and private, gorging at the environmental law litigation trough...

:ohno:


AZ, Kalm, etc...

...you may rhetorically knock the Asian countries, but re: quality of life...they all have jobs, can feed their families without govt. aid, and healthcare is so readily available and decent, I have two friends (couples), one from China , the other from Indonesia, who when the wives became pregnant, "moved" back to their home countries to have their children. The Chinese family saved $35,000 by going "home". Those reduced costs don't come at the expense of quality of care, but from elimination of overhead expenses. It doesn't cost hundreds of millions/billions to construct a regional medical facility; millions annually to ensure "sustainable", bio-hazard-free, common areas...the list goes on and on and on...

...but don't knock those developing nations if you don't know what you're talking about.
Everyone realizes that EPA and Gov in general can be overbearing and inefficient. So there's no need to continue with the anecdotal stories. Unless you want me to post the names of every US citizen that didn't die of thyroid decease or cancer because of EPA regulations.

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:32 pm
by BlueHen86
kalm wrote:Everyone realizes that EPA and Gov in general can be overbearing and inefficient. So there's no need to continue with the anecdotal stories. Unless you want me to post the names of every US citizen that didn't die of thyroid decease or cancer because of EPA regulations.
T-Man must be a lobbyist. Probably for BP. If he makes a post blaming the Gulf spill on the EPA we'll know for sure. :lol:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:20 am
by travelinman67
kalm wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:Funny that those who praise EPA, have jobs that don't require interaction with the agency... :roll:

HI5 is spot on, and I can cite firsthand an endless list of bizarre EPA instigated actions needlessly costing American businesses and homeowners thousands every day...

...A contractor in Elko, in business for 17 years, on the same 5 acre, flat upaved lot, east of town, when they graded 1 acre of the land for parking, received a fine, and demand to conduct an environmental study and submit a stormwater runoff plan within 30 days...OR, in lieu of the study, could pay a $3,800 mitigation fee to the FEDERAL EPA...paid the fee, hired an environmental consultant to prepare the SWPP, at a cost of $1,700, then spent another 3 days installing a box culvert along the edge of their property: A property surrounded by arid "high desert"...

...Every diesel powered piece of construction equipment in the State of CA MUST BE INSPECTED AND REGISTERED, with CA EPA...every piece...even a 5hp generator...cement mixer...transfer pump...everything...

...Witnessed one of my clients, installing a water main in Marin County...at 2:30p one afternoon...had parked a Bobcat on the jobsite...and Bobcat developed a fuel leak...lost about 5 gal diesel before they caught it...immediately called the main office...which shut down another jobsite across the Bay...to send over a backhoe on a trailer, transfer and crew to excavate 20 yards of topsoil, while simultaneously mobilizing a third party hazmat testing lab to head to the jobsite...while three govt. inspectors played cellphone-circle jerk calling their bosses to see what laws were being violated. By 4:30p...two hours after the horrendous 5 gal spill...20 yard of soil had been removed, placed in a covered transfer and were enroute to a hazmat storage site in Sonoma, adminstrative staff had already filled out Federal paperwork required when there's a spill...and faxed it to the regional EPA office...while the inspectors and testing lab continued testing to determine the extent of the environmental "damage". We calc'd the 2 hour response cost at $42,000.

I've seen similar situations resolved by two workers with shovels and wheelbarrow digging up the saturated soil and spreading it out on tarps so the fuel can evaporate...at a cost of ~$50.

...A third generation rancher who refused to quitclaim 500 acres of his 1,500 acre ranch to an environmental group attempting to create a riparian watershed protection area along a creek. Two years and $50,000 in legal bills later, the EPA served him with a court order to relocate his livestock...after "finding" E-Coli bacteria in the wells on his property and in test wells they had drilled around the perimeter. Accusing him of "polluting" the water table (the closest potable water wells to his property were 2 miles away...a distance even their expert said was beyond the potential migration/plume), the EPA gave him the option of donating the 500 acres as "mitigation", constructing a tertiary water treatment plant to treat the groundwater, or simply stop raising livestock.
He sold the livestock, kept the land, retired, and publicly stated he'd shoot the next govt. employee that stepped foot on his land. I spoke with him about his decision. His plan: To outlive the envirowhackoism and continue ranching one day.

...Water treatment requirements so ridiculously stringent virtually every municipality in the U.S. has had to construct entirely new sewage treatment plants over the past 8 years...at a cost to the taxpayers in the hundreds of billions (personally, my cost for one of my properties is approx. $25k over 7 years.)...

...CA EPA air quality laws so mind-numbingly absurd, the leftislature has crafted motor vehicle maintenance/pollution standard laws so intricate and restrictive, owners end up junking cars after 8 years or risk paying punitive fees/costs to keep the vehicle on the road...a practice fine for individuals/businesses with hundreds of thousands in PR or disposable income, but too costly for most small businesses or middle class...

...Bans on building fireplaces in new homes...

...Bans on having fires in fireplaces where they exist...

...Charging campers with a Federal crime for shooting rattlesnakes along CA rivers (where they are "protected")...

...Mining moratoriums that in effect negate our nation's natural resource wealth...

...And an army of attorneys, govt. and private, gorging at the environmental law litigation trough...

:ohno:


AZ, Kalm, etc...

...you may rhetorically knock the Asian countries, but re: quality of life...they all have jobs, can feed their families without govt. aid, and healthcare is so readily available and decent, I have two friends (couples), one from China , the other from Indonesia, who when the wives became pregnant, "moved" back to their home countries to have their children. The Chinese family saved $35,000 by going "home". Those reduced costs don't come at the expense of quality of care, but from elimination of overhead expenses. It doesn't cost hundreds of millions/billions to construct a regional medical facility; millions annually to ensure "sustainable", bio-hazard-free, common areas...the list goes on and on and on...

...but don't knock those developing nations if you don't know what you're talking about.
Everyone realizes that EPA and Gov in general can be overbearing and inefficient. So there's no need to continue with the anecdotal stories. Unless you want me to post the names of every US citizen that didn't die of thyroid decease or cancer because of EPA regulations.
And then I'll post the name of every American who'll die prematurely after living a life without heat, healthcare, education, and a proper diet due to the absence of jobs/economic prosperity.

Wanna bet whose list is longer?

:coffee:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:22 am
by travelinman67
BlueHen86 wrote:
kalm wrote:Everyone realizes that EPA and Gov in general can be overbearing and inefficient. So there's no need to continue with the anecdotal stories. Unless you want me to post the names of every US citizen that didn't die of thyroid decease or cancer because of EPA regulations.
T-Man must be a lobbyist. Probably for BP. If he makes a post blaming the Gulf spill on the EPA we'll know for sure. :lol:
Sure thing, Todd.

:coffee:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:31 am
by BlueHen86
travelinman67 wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote:
T-Man must be a lobbyist. Probably for BP. If he makes a post blaming the Gulf spill on the EPA we'll know for sure. :lol:
Sure thing, Todd.

:coffee:
No problem Haliburton.

:coffee:

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:51 am
by kalm
travelinman67 wrote: And then I'll post the name of every American who'll die prematurely after living a life without heat, healthcare, education, and a proper diet due to the absence of jobs/economic prosperity.

Wanna bet whose list is longer?

:coffee:
Manufacturers will always ship jobs and resource extraction to governments they can more easily manipulate. That doesn't make it right.

Does a clean and safe environment have an economic value?

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:55 am
by travelinman67
kalm wrote:
travelinman67 wrote: And then I'll post the name of every American who'll die prematurely after living a life without heat, healthcare, education, and a proper diet due to the absence of jobs/economic prosperity.

Wanna bet whose list is longer?

:coffee:
Manufacturers will always ship jobs and resource extraction to governments they can more easily manipulate. That doesn't make it right.
You really believe this, don't you?

:shock:

Kalm...you've been brainwashed. When you view a "job" as a "wrong", you need help.

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:48 am
by kalm
travelinman67 wrote:
kalm wrote:
Manufacturers will always ship jobs and resource extraction to governments they can more easily manipulate. That doesn't make it right.
You really believe this, don't you?

:shock:

Kalm...you've been brainwashed. When you view a "job" as a "wrong", you need help.
Nice :lol:

Image

Re: Con Collapses: CCX Gone With The Wind

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:35 pm
by Appaholic
travelinman67 wrote:
kalm wrote:

Everyone realizes that EPA and Gov in general can be overbearing and inefficient. So there's no need to continue with the anecdotal stories. Unless you want me to post the names of every US citizen that didn't die of thyroid decease or cancer because of EPA regulations.
And then I'll post the name of every American who'll die without a PS3, a HUMMER, cheap gas to fuel it with and a Happy Meal due to the absence of jobs/economic prosperity.
Wanna bet whose list is longer?

:coffee:
What TMan really means.... :coffee:

...and I work with a man from China who almost cried when he saw the house I lived in, yet is above me in the chain of command, lives in a 500 sqft apartment on the 8th floor with no elevator.....but he has a job & healthcare....and don't ever believe it's without government aid...without US's assinine trade policies tilting the board towards Asia & developing nations, they're shittin' in their hands & still killing their first born daughters onver there........ :roll: