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And a vast majority of Americans think it's wrong:

According to an analysis this year by Edward Wolff of New York University, the top 20% of wealthy individuals own about 85% of the wealth, while the bottom 40% own very near 0%. Many in that bottom 40% not only have no assets, they have negative net wealth.

We recently asked a representative sample of more than 5,000 Americans (young and old, men and women, rich and poor, liberal and conservative) to answer two questions. They first were asked to estimate the current level of wealth inequality in the United States, and then they were asked about what they saw as an ideal level of wealth inequality.

In our survey, Americans drastically underestimated the current gap between the very rich and the poor. The typical respondent believed that the top 20% of Americans owned 60% of the wealth, and the bottom 40% owned 10%. They knew, in other words, that wealth in the United States was not distributed equally, but were unaware of just how unequal that distribution was.

When we asked respondents to tell us what their ideal distribution of wealth was, things got even more interesting: Americans wanted the top 20% to own just over 30% of the wealth, and the bottom 40% to own about 25%. They still wanted the rich to be richer than the poor, but they wanted the disparity to be much less extreme.

— from the poorest to the richest, from the most conservative to the most liberal — agreed that the current level of wealth inequality was too high and wanted a more equitable distribution of wealth. In fact, Americans reported wanting to live in a country that looks more like Sweden than the United States.

Screw England and their austerity:



http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/08 ... y-20101108" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edit: (forgot to put in the link)

I'd be willing to cough up a few more bucks in taxes if those honeys showed up on my lawn each morning!

How many Americans have actually been to Sweden and have any idea at all what it looks like?

CitadelGrad wrote:How many Americans have actually been to Sweden and have any idea at all what it looks like?

I have. Luvli countri!

The good ole wealth envy card... if you've got it play it, always good for stirring up the left side of the bell curve.

I always found it quite interesting how those who have the wealth exhibit and repeat the behaviors that accumulate and protect wealth while those who don't have the wealth do not but always look to government to do what they are unwilling or unable to do for themselves.

It isn't very hard to accumulate wealth in our economic system, all one has to do is pretty much follow these guidelines:

a) take advantage of any and all educational opportunities afforded you. Do as well and advance as far in school as possible.

b) do not engage in criminal activity

c) do not have children out of wedlock and until you have finished doing item "a"

d) do not abuse drugs and alcohol

e) be willing to work more than 40 hours a week and do whatever it takes, which might include working multiple jobs, to get ahead

f) don't abuse credit

g) save at least 10% of what you earn, pay yourself first

h) and most importantly, don't believe anybody who says you can't do something, always look for ways to make things happen and don't make excuses.

kalm wrote:And a vast majority of Americans think it's wrong:

When we asked respondents to tell us what their ideal distribution of wealth was, things got even more interesting: Americans wanted the top 20% to own just over 30% of the wealth, and the bottom 40% to own about 25%. They still wanted the rich to be richer than the poor, but they wanted the disparity to be much less extreme.

And my answer to that is, why does anyone, especially average folks on the street responding to a survey, even have an "ideal distribution of wealth"? I could care less what other people have as long as I'm personally able to put food on the table, live in a nice house, be able to afford two good cars, and be able to buy some nice things to have. Once my needs are met, it doesn't really bother me that someone or a group of people have 10x the wealth I have. I really don't want to have to work as much as I would have to to get 10x what I earn now - I like getting to go home at night and on weekends and just be with my family. Nothing wrong with that, even if it skews someone's ideal distribution of wealth.

blueballs wrote:The good ole wealth envy card... if you've got it play it, always good for stirring up the left side of the bell curve.

I always found it quite interesting how those who have the wealth exhibit and repeat the behaviors that accumulate and protect wealth while those who don't have the wealth do not but always look to government to do what they are unwilling or unable to do for themselves.

It isn't very hard to accumulate wealth in our economic system, all one has to do is pretty much follow these guidelines:

a) take advantage of any and all educational opportunities afforded you. Do as well and advance as far in school as possible.

b) do not engage in criminal activity

c) do not have children out of wedlock and until you have finished doing item "a"

d) do not abuse drugs and alcohol

e) be willing to work more than 40 hours a week and do whatever it takes, which might include working multiple jobs, to get ahead

f) don't abuse credit

g) save at least 10% of what you earn, pay yourself first

h) and most importantly, don't believe anybody who says you can't do something, always look for ways to make things happen and don't make excuses.

You forgot the most important one...
Like virtually every Politician or the very elite wealthy

1) Be born into a wealthy family
2) Act like you earned it



And BTW: What you explain above is not how you get Wealthy - that's how you get ahead... Wealthy is something entirely different than working 50 hours a week and getting a masters degree while staying drug free and not getting your girlfriend preggers.... that's how you get to upper middle class

Chizzang wrote:

blueballs wrote:The good ole wealth envy card... if you've got it play it, always good for stirring up the left side of the bell curve.

I always found it quite interesting how those who have the wealth exhibit and repeat the behaviors that accumulate and protect wealth while those who don't have the wealth do not but always look to government to do what they are unwilling or unable to do for themselves.

It isn't very hard to accumulate wealth in our economic system, all one has to do is pretty much follow these guidelines:

a) take advantage of any and all educational opportunities afforded you. Do as well and advance as far in school as possible.

b) do not engage in criminal activity

c) do not have children out of wedlock and until you have finished doing item "a"

d) do not abuse drugs and alcohol

e) be willing to work more than 40 hours a week and do whatever it takes, which might include working multiple jobs, to get ahead

f) don't abuse credit

g) save at least 10% of what you earn, pay yourself first

h) and most importantly, don't believe anybody who says you can't do something, always look for ways to make things happen and don't make excuses.

You forgot the most important one...
Like virtually every Politician or the very elite wealthy

1) Be born into a wealthy family
2) Act like you earned it



And BTW: What you explain above is not how you get Wealthy - that's how you get ahead... Wealthy is something entirely different than working 50 hours a week and getting a masters degree while staying drug free and not getting your girlfriend preggers.... that's how you get to upper middle class

You're exactly right, and most "left side of the bell curvers" have no true idea of what wealth really is, and I'm talking generational wealth, which is what I think you're referring to.

Warren Buffett:

"If anything, taxes for the lower and middle class and maybe even the upper middle class should even probably be cut further," Buffett said. "But I think that people at the high end -- people like myself -- should be paying a lot more in taxes. We have it better than we've ever had it.…The rich are always going to say that, you know, just give us more money and we’ll go out and spend more and then it will all trickle down to the rest of you.” Buffett, the CEO of Berkshire Hathaway Inc., added, “But that has not worked the last 10 years, and I hope the American public is catching on.”

11/21/2010


http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/warren-b ... d=12199889" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GannonFan wrote:

kalm wrote:And a vast majority of Americans think it's wrong:

And my answer to that is, why does anyone, especially average folks on the street responding to a survey, even have an "ideal distribution of wealth"? I could care less what other people have as long as I'm personally able to put food on the table, live in a nice house, be able to afford two good cars, and be able to buy some nice things to have. Once my needs are met, it doesn't really bother me that someone or a group of people have 10x the wealth I have. I really don't want to have to work as much as I would have to to get 10x what I earn now - I like getting to go home at night and on weekends and just be with my family. Nothing wrong with that, even if it skews someone's ideal distribution of wealth.

God you are such an underachiever.

All joking aside, I'm with pretty much with you on the envy thing. My interest is that it's becoming more difficult to afford a middle class lifestyle than it used to be, the middle class is shrinking, there are less people earning enough to pay taxes, and meanwhile, the truly wealthy have never had it so good.

blueballs wrote: I always found it quite interesting how those who have the wealth exhibit and repeat the behaviors that accumulate and protect wealth while those who don't have the wealth do not but always look to government to do what they are unwilling or unable to do for themselves..

It's a total myth that the wealthy don't look to the government to accumulate and protect their wealth. They just do it in a less unseemly fashion.

In other words, see Chizzang's post.

GannonFan wrote: And my answer to that is, why does anyone, especially average folks on the street responding to a survey, even have an "ideal distribution of wealth"? I could care less what other people have as long as I'm personally able to put food on the table, live in a nice house, be able to afford two good cars, and be able to buy some nice things to have. Once my needs are met, it doesn't really bother me that someone or a group of people have 10x the wealth I have. I really don't want to have to work as much as I would have to to get 10x what I earn now - I like getting to go home at night and on weekends and just be with my family. Nothing wrong with that, even if it skews someone's ideal distribution of wealth.

Interesting post...
Truth be told, none of that stuff (and I use the word "stuff" intentionally) is capable of making you happy... In fact the American upper middle class dream of just what you described above has proven to be the recipe for discontent and misery

Two good cars a big house in the suburbs full of "nice stuff" all supported by a mid-range corporate job is the big lie...

A pretty good friend of mine who is also my doctor (General Practitioner) tells me he's got basically a majority of mildly over weight soft tired bored desperately unhappy upper middle class clients... who as he said to me "They wake up at 45 years old one day and don't really like their job but it's okay - don't really like their life but it's okay and can't figure out how come they have all this stuff and something's just not right"

The American dream of accumulation of stuff - you're house isn't worth as much as you'd like - you gotta keep your job because you've got all this stuff and you find out "You're stuck" trapped in your delusion of what the world was supposed to be once I got all this stuff... and as it turns out.... It's not about the job anymore or the cars or the House or the Stuff - and all of a sudden you want out



Sometimes it's about less...
No house - a simple car - no stuff
and a job you can walk away from whenever you want - because you can - because you don't have anything...

There's is freedom in not having a bunch of stuff - no house - no cars - no junk

And part of the piece of mind is in the ability to just "walk away" even though you might never do that, having the ability to just walk out of a job or just leave for a few weeks or go to Honduras for two months or whatever... being able to walk away might be all the mind needs to relax and ease the "wanting"

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose...

Chizzang wrote:

GannonFan wrote: And my answer to that is, why does anyone, especially average folks on the street responding to a survey, even have an "ideal distribution of wealth"? I could care less what other people have as long as I'm personally able to put food on the table, live in a nice house, be able to afford two good cars, and be able to buy some nice things to have. Once my needs are met, it doesn't really bother me that someone or a group of people have 10x the wealth I have. I really don't want to have to work as much as I would have to to get 10x what I earn now - I like getting to go home at night and on weekends and just be with my family. Nothing wrong with that, even if it skews someone's ideal distribution of wealth.

Interesting post...
Truth be told, none of that stuff (and I use the word "stuff" intentionally) is capable of making you happy... In fact the American upper middle class dream of just what you described above has proven to be the recipe for discontent and misery

Two good cars a big house in the suburbs full of "nice stuff" all supported by a mid-range corporate job is the big lie...

A pretty good friend of mine who is also my doctor (General Practitioner) tells me he's got basically a majority of mildly over weight soft tired bored desperately unhappy upper middle class clients... who as he said to me "They wake up at 45 years old one day and don't really like their job but it's okay - don't really like their life but it's okay and can't figure out how come they have all this stuff and something's just not right"

The American dream of accumulation of stuff - you're house isn't worth as much as you'd like - you gotta keep your job because you've got all this stuff and you find out "You're stuck" trapped in your delusion of what the world was supposed to be once I got all this stuff... and as it turns out.... It's not about the job anymore or the cars or the House or the Stuff - and all of a sudden you want out



Sometimes it's about less...
No house - a simple car - no stuff
and a job you can walk away from whenever you want - because you can - because you don't have anything...

There's is freedom in not having a bunch of stuff - no house - no cars - no junk

And part of the piece of mind is in the ability to just "walk away" even though you might never do that, having the ability to just walk out of a job or just leave for a few weeks or go to Honduras for two months or whatever... being able to walk away might be all the mind needs to relax and ease the "wanting"

I take it you have no kids?

Chizzang wrote:

GannonFan wrote: And my answer to that is, why does anyone, especially average folks on the street responding to a survey, even have an "ideal distribution of wealth"? I could care less what other people have as long as I'm personally able to put food on the table, live in a nice house, be able to afford two good cars, and be able to buy some nice things to have. Once my needs are met, it doesn't really bother me that someone or a group of people have 10x the wealth I have. I really don't want to have to work as much as I would have to to get 10x what I earn now - I like getting to go home at night and on weekends and just be with my family. Nothing wrong with that, even if it skews someone's ideal distribution of wealth.

Interesting post...
Truth be told, none of that stuff (and I use the word "stuff" intentionally) is capable of making you happy... In fact the American upper middle class dream of just what you described above has proven to be the recipe for discontent and misery

Two good cars a big house in the suburbs full of "nice stuff" all supported by a mid-range corporate job is the big lie...

A pretty good friend of mine who is also my doctor (General Practitioner) tells me he's got basically a majority of mildly over weight soft tired bored desperately unhappy upper middle class clients... who as he said to me "They wake up at 45 years old one day and don't really like their job but it's okay - don't really like their life but it's okay and can't figure out how come they have all this stuff and something's just not right"

The American dream of accumulation of stuff - you're house isn't worth as much as you'd like - you gotta keep your job because you've got all this stuff and you find out "You're stuck" trapped in your delusion of what the world was supposed to be once I got all this stuff... and as it turns out.... It's not about the job anymore or the cars or the House or the Stuff - and all of a sudden you want out



Sometimes it's about less...
No house - a simple car - no stuff
and a job you can walk away from whenever you want - because you can - because you don't have anything...

There's is freedom in not having a bunch of stuff - no house - no cars - no junk

And part of the piece of mind is in the ability to just "walk away" even though you might never do that, having the ability to just walk out of a job or just leave for a few weeks or go to Honduras for two months or whatever... being able to walk away might be all the mind needs to relax and ease the "wanting"

All of that is true for a certain small segment of the population, I being in this group. The independence is what you have to hold in the highest regard for this type of thing to work for you though. My brother is quite the opposite of me in that he always wanted the family, the house, the new truck and he has stuff as well. It's what works for him but he has a financial sword hanging over his head and a fraction of the freedom to do things that I do. He does bitch about it but also praises it as much.

Chizzang wrote:
Interesting post...
Truth be told, none of that stuff (and I use the word "stuff" intentionally) is capable of making you happy... In fact the American upper middle class dream of just what you described above has proven to be the recipe for discontent and misery

Two good cars a big house in the suburbs full of "nice stuff" all supported by a mid-range corporate job is the big lie...

A pretty good friend of mine who is also my doctor (General Practitioner) tells me he's got basically a majority of mildly over weight soft tired bored desperately unhappy upper middle class clients... who as he said to me "They wake up at 45 years old one day and don't really like their job but it's okay - don't really like their life but it's okay and can't figure out how come they have all this stuff and something's just not right"

The American dream of accumulation of stuff - you're house isn't worth as much as you'd like - you gotta keep your job because you've got all this stuff and you find out "You're stuck" trapped in your delusion of what the world was supposed to be once I got all this stuff... and as it turns out.... It's not about the job anymore or the cars or the House or the Stuff - and all of a sudden you want out



Sometimes it's about less...
No house - a simple car - no stuff
and a job you can walk away from whenever you want - because you can - because you don't have anything...

There's is freedom in not having a bunch of stuff - no house - no cars - no junk

And part of the piece of mind is in the ability to just "walk away" even though you might never do that, having the ability to just walk out of a job or just leave for a few weeks or go to Honduras for two months or whatever... being able to walk away might be all the mind needs to relax and ease the "wanting"

Alan Watts nailed it:
[youtube][/youtube]

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:

All of that is true for a certain small segment of the population, I being in this group. The independence is what you have to hold in the highest regard for this type of thing to work for you though. My brother is quite the opposite of me in that he always wanted the family, the house, the new truck and he has stuff as well. It's what works for him but he has a financial sword hanging over his head and a fraction of the freedom to do things that I do. He does bitch about it but also praises it as much.

Indeed my friend...
What I'm curious about is the popularity of the American dream "myth"
The middle management job the house the kids the cars the stuff piled up on more stuff...

Interestingly enough - the Beatnik ethos was a reaction the the 50's American Dream but it never really caught hold of the American Mainstream like it did in Europe - Europeans consider the ability to "walk away" the primary link to sanity when polled and they consider "consumerism" to be a form of slavery where your house and your stuff eventually own you...

The Beatnik Ethos...

Chizzang wrote:

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:

All of that is true for a certain small segment of the population, I being in this group. The independence is what you have to hold in the highest regard for this type of thing to work for you though. My brother is quite the opposite of me in that he always wanted the family, the house, the new truck and he has stuff as well. It's what works for him but he has a financial sword hanging over his head and a fraction of the freedom to do things that I do. He does bitch about it but also praises it as much.

Indeed my friend...
What I'm curious about is the popularity of the American dream "myth"
The middle management job the house the kids the cars the stuff piled up on more stuff...

Interestingly enough - the Beatnik ethos was a reaction the the 50's American Dream but it never really caught hold of the American Mainstream like it did in Europe - Europeans consider the ability to "walk away" the primary link to sanity when polled and they consider "consumerism" to be a form of slavery where your house and your stuff eventually own you...

The Beatnik Ethos...

Yeah, the day after tomorrow my dad & my brother will ask me if I want to go look for deals on the "Black Friday" shit. I will tell them "no" as I do every year. They'll tell me about the good deals and I'll tell them that would be great if I needed anything or felt like buying into the manufactured craze that you need to go do your Christmas shopping with the rest of retards running around for a "good deal". I like ribbing them a little.

Skjellyfetti wrote:
Alan Watts nailed it:
[youtube][/youtube]

Pretty good there skjelly!

93henfan wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
Interesting post...
Truth be told, none of that stuff (and I use the word "stuff" intentionally) is capable of making you happy... In fact the American upper middle class dream of just what you described above has proven to be the recipe for discontent and misery

Two good cars a big house in the suburbs full of "nice stuff" all supported by a mid-range corporate job is the big lie...

A pretty good friend of mine who is also my doctor (General Practitioner) tells me he's got basically a majority of mildly over weight soft tired bored desperately unhappy upper middle class clients... who as he said to me "They wake up at 45 years old one day and don't really like their job but it's okay - don't really like their life but it's okay and can't figure out how come they have all this stuff and something's just not right"

The American dream of accumulation of stuff - you're house isn't worth as much as you'd like - you gotta keep your job because you've got all this stuff and you find out "You're stuck" trapped in your delusion of what the world was supposed to be once I got all this stuff... and as it turns out.... It's not about the job anymore or the cars or the House or the Stuff - and all of a sudden you want out



Sometimes it's about less...
No house - a simple car - no stuff
and a job you can walk away from whenever you want - because you can - because you don't have anything...

There's is freedom in not having a bunch of stuff - no house - no cars - no junk

And part of the piece of mind is in the ability to just "walk away" even though you might never do that, having the ability to just walk out of a job or just leave for a few weeks or go to Honduras for two months or whatever... being able to walk away might be all the mind needs to relax and ease the "wanting"

I take it you have no kids?

Exactly my thought when reading it.

That being acknowledged, one of my favorite words is "experiential" which I think applies to this discussion.

If you have kids it's kind of like carbon credits. For every video game or piece of crap plastic happy meal toy purchased you've got to take your kids out fishing, sledding, hiking, golfing, or even skipping stones.

Experientialism versus materialism.

kalm wrote:

93henfan wrote:
I take it you have no kids?

Exactly my thought when reading it.

That being acknowledged, one of my favorite words is "experiential" which I think applies to this discussion.

If you have kids it's kind of like carbon credits. For every video game or piece of crap plastic happy meal toy purchased you've got to take your kids out fishing, sledding, hiking, golfing, or even skipping stones.

Experientialism versus materialism.

My old man always followed this rule, and then some, and I'll always be grateful for it.

Chizzy, you communist, you are so full of shit...and you stole part of your blather from George Carlin.

Sure there are many unhappy middle class people...and some unhappy wealthy people...but for every unhappy rich and middle class person, there are many more unhappy poor people. Everything being equal, I'll take a solid roof over my head, a good neighborhood full of educated and gainfully employed intersting people, good clothing, and some good food over being poor.

BTW, it takes money to travel...at least if you plan on doing it for a living. Sure, you can do it on a limited budget when you are young, but quitting your job on a regular basis is not a good way to ensure that your end years are lived well. And quitting your job regularly usually means you don’t have kids…unless you’re a gypsy.

In the end, you'll end up 60 years old and renting some capitalist’s house somewhere by yourself...the woman who loved you for your wanderlust having departed for someone with some ambition and stability.

Cluck U wrote:Chizzy, you communist, you are so full of ****...and you stole part of your blather from George Carlin.

Sure there are many unhappy middle class people...and some unhappy wealthy people...but for every unhappy rich and middle class person, there are many more unhappy poor people. Everything being equal, I'll take a solid roof over my head, a good neighborhood full of educated and gainfully employed intersting people, good clothing, and some good food over being poor.

BTW, it takes money to travel...at least if you plan on doing it for a living. Sure, you can do it on a limited budget when you are young, but quitting your job on a regular basis is not a good way to ensure that your end years are lived well. And quitting your job regularly usually means you don’t have kids…unless you’re a gypsy.

In the end, you'll end up 60 years old and renting some capitalist’s house somewhere by yourself...the woman who loved you for your wanderlust having departed for someone with some ambition and stability.

Obviously. There are more poor people than rich people.

houndawg wrote:

Cluck U wrote:Chizzy, you communist, you are so full of ****...and you stole part of your blather from George Carlin.

Sure there are many unhappy middle class people...and some unhappy wealthy people...but for every unhappy rich and middle class person, there are many more unhappy poor people. Everything being equal, I'll take a solid roof over my head, a good neighborhood full of educated and gainfully employed intersting people, good clothing, and some good food over being poor.

BTW, it takes money to travel...at least if you plan on doing it for a living. Sure, you can do it on a limited budget when you are young, but quitting your job on a regular basis is not a good way to ensure that your end years are lived well. And quitting your job regularly usually means you don’t have kids…unless you’re a gypsy.

In the end, you'll end up 60 years old and renting some capitalist’s house somewhere by yourself...the woman who loved you for your wanderlust having departed for someone with some ambition and stability.

Obviously. There are more poor people than rich people.

Good catch...but I was talking about percentages.

Cluck U wrote:Chizzy, you communist, you are so full of shit...and you stole part of your blather from George Carlin.

Sure there are many unhappy middle class people...and some unhappy wealthy people...but for every unhappy rich and middle class person, there are many more unhappy poor people. Everything being equal, I'll take a solid roof over my head, a good neighborhood full of educated and gainfully employed intersting people, good clothing, and some good food over being poor.

BTW, it takes money to travel...at least if you plan on doing it for a living. Sure, you can do it on a limited budget when you are young, but quitting your job on a regular basis is not a good way to ensure that your end years are lived well. And quitting your job regularly usually means you don’t have kids…unless you’re a gypsy.

In the end, you'll end up 60 years old and renting some capitalist’s house somewhere by yourself...the woman who loved you for your wanderlust having departed for someone with some ambition and stability.

Chizzy doesn't care. At 70 he's renting some rich sap's sailboat and sailing it out into the middle of a hurricane anyways. It's Chizzy's last slap in the face to the ruling class. One final "fuck you" from the prolitariat's flagbearer.