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AZGrizFan wrote:There's something wrong with the concept that unions have sucked the life out of automakers and now it's the taxpayers responsibility to breathe the life back IN.
I say let 'em die...just like I think they should have let the banks die...dbackjon wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:There's something wrong with the concept that unions have sucked the life out of automakers and now it's the taxpayers responsibility to breathe the life back IN.
To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.
I agree....but, I believe they are equally at fault......shitty union labor force and weak management with crappy ideas....let'em wither and die....dbackjon wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:There's something wrong with the concept that unions have sucked the life out of automakers and now it's the taxpayers responsibility to breathe the life back IN.
To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.
Exactly.....BTW, where is it written in stone that this country must have a "Big 3" in automobile production? If they cannot compete on their own, declare bankruptcy, merge, whatever.....HI54UNI wrote:Both the unions and management are at fault and I don't think the taxpayers need to bail them out. Let them declare bankruptcy. I cannot see GM going completely away. I cannot see parts of Chrysler going completely away either (like Jeep for example). Where are we going to stop? Now states and large cities are lining up for their turn at the trough. Enough is enough.
Have you seen this video GM supposedly made to try and scare everybody.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rfM4n1gdjM
Very true. I read somewhere (I think it was the WSJ) when the GM-Chrysler merger talks were going on that GM's rumored plan was to stop making all Chrysler/Dodge vehicles except the minivans and Jeeps. Is there any reason to have something made by Chrysler other than those anyway (ok maybe the new Charger or the Viper)? Let em go bankrupt. Somebody will buy the desirable parts and make them work. The rest will follow Studebaker, Plymouth, Oldsmobile.Appaholic wrote:Exactly.....BTW, where is it written in stone that this country must have a "Big 3" in automobile production? If they cannot compete on their own, declare bankruptcy, merge, whatever.....HI54UNI wrote:Both the unions and management are at fault and I don't think the taxpayers need to bail them out. Let them declare bankruptcy. I cannot see GM going completely away. I cannot see parts of Chrysler going completely away either (like Jeep for example). Where are we going to stop? Now states and large cities are lining up for their turn at the trough. Enough is enough.
Have you seen this video GM supposedly made to try and scare everybody.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rfM4n1gdjM
Jon, Jon, Jon: You do realize, right, that all those "fuel efficient" cars that the automakers make are sold at a loss, right? You do realize that they don't make money on the Escorts, the Corollas, the Edge, the Yaris, etc., etc., right? You do realize that it costs something like $23,000 to make an Escort, and about $28,000 to make a Cadillac Escalade, right? They only sell those low end vehicles at those prices to get you to be a "Ford" guy, or a "Toyota" guy, or a "GM" guy, so that when you are ready to move up to a REAL Vehicle (i.e., one they actually MAKE money on) they've GOT you. Steel, rubber, electrical wire, etc., etc costs the same whether it's going into a Corolla or a GS430. When you're ready to move up from a Camry to a Lexus, you spend another $20,000 and get about $3,000 more car--it's even on the same frame and has the same engine (or at least used to)...dbackjon wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:There's something wrong with the concept that unions have sucked the life out of automakers and now it's the taxpayers responsibility to breathe the life back IN.
To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.
Not just the economy models, Tommie. They resisted making the big guys more fuel efficient, and then the public stopped buying them.AZGrizFan wrote:Jon, Jon, Jon: You do realize, right, that all those "fuel efficient" cars that the automakers make are sold at a loss, right? You do realize that they don't make money on the Escorts, the Corollas, the Edge, the Yaris, etc., etc., right? You do realize that it costs something like $23,000 to make an Escort, and about $28,000 to make a Cadillac Escalade, right? They only sell those low end vehicles at those prices to get you to be a "Ford" guy, or a "Toyota" guy, or a "GM" guy, so that when you are ready to move up to a REAL Vehicle (i.e., one they actually MAKE money on) they've GOT you. Steel, rubber, electrical wire, etc., etc costs the same whether it's going into a Corolla or a GS430. When you're ready to move up from a Camry to a Lexus, you spend another $20,000 and get about $3,000 more car--it's even on the same frame and has the same engine (or at least used to)...dbackjon wrote:
To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.
And WHY does it cost the same to build a high end auto and a low end auto? Unions, Jon.
God, am I glad I work in a right-to-work state.
True. However management negotiated those contracts. Management bought Washington and successfully lobbied to eliminate responsible fuel economy standards. Management made/makes shitty cars that no one wants to buy. No one put a gun to their heads. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai are doing great, in America. Detroit is a microcosm of America = Fat, Loud, Lazy and Stupid.AZGrizFan wrote:Jon, Jon, Jon: You do realize, right, that all those "fuel efficient" cars that the automakers make are sold at a loss, right? You do realize that they don't make money on the Escorts, the Corollas, the Edge, the Yaris, etc., etc., right? You do realize that it costs something like $23,000 to make an Escort, and about $28,000 to make a Cadillac Escalade, right? They only sell those low end vehicles at those prices to get you to be a "Ford" guy, or a "Toyota" guy, or a "GM" guy, so that when you are ready to move up to a REAL Vehicle (i.e., one they actually MAKE money on) they've GOT you. Steel, rubber, electrical wire, etc., etc costs the same whether it's going into a Corolla or a GS430. When you're ready to move up from a Camry to a Lexus, you spend another $20,000 and get about $3,000 more car--it's even on the same frame and has the same engine (or at least used to)...dbackjon wrote:
To blame unions is short-sighted and irresponsible. Do they take a portion of the blame? Yes. But the auto-executives, and there refusal to raise fuel standards take the majority of the blame.
And WHY does it cost the same to build a high end auto and a low end auto? Unions, Jon.
God, am I glad I work in a right-to-work state.
I agree wholeheartedly. But management HAD to negotiate those contracts to keep the plants running. Detriot is a microcosm of Unions: Fat, Lound, Lazy and Stupid. They've ruined America. They served a purpose, they outlived their purpose, and now they've almost singlehandely brought down one of the biggest industries in the nation.D1B wrote:True. However management negotiated those contracts. Management bought Washington and successfully lobbied to eliminate responsible fuel economy standards. Management made/makes shitty cars that no one wants to buy. No one put a gun to their heads. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai are doing great, in America. Detroit is a microcosm of America = Fat, Loud, Lazy and Stupid.AZGrizFan wrote: Jon, Jon, Jon: You do realize, right, that all those "fuel efficient" cars that the automakers make are sold at a loss, right? You do realize that they don't make money on the Escorts, the Corollas, the Edge, the Yaris, etc., etc., right? You do realize that it costs something like $23,000 to make an Escort, and about $28,000 to make a Cadillac Escalade, right? They only sell those low end vehicles at those prices to get you to be a "Ford" guy, or a "Toyota" guy, or a "GM" guy, so that when you are ready to move up to a REAL Vehicle (i.e., one they actually MAKE money on) they've GOT you. Steel, rubber, electrical wire, etc., etc costs the same whether it's going into a Corolla or a GS430. When you're ready to move up from a Camry to a Lexus, you spend another $20,000 and get about $3,000 more car--it's even on the same frame and has the same engine (or at least used to)...
And WHY does it cost the same to build a high end auto and a low end auto? Unions, Jon.
God, am I glad I work in a right-to-work state.
A playoff system for the BCS?dbackjon wrote:The union-hating myopia on here is symptomatic of the real issues facing America.
You mean the fact we just elected a communist president?dbackjon wrote:The union-hating myopia on here is symptomatic of the real issues facing America.
That sucks. When u say half, what do u mean?citdog wrote:as of monday morning......I am closing half of my dealership and laying off 10 people.......thanks go to all of you who own a honda, kia, vw, hyuandi, bmw, mercedes benz, nissan..etc
saab and buick occupied one building.....pontiac ang gmc another.....now all in buick building....dbackjon wrote:That sucks. When u say half, what do u mean?citdog wrote:as of monday morning......I am closing half of my dealership and laying off 10 people.......thanks go to all of you who own a honda, kia, vw, hyuandi, bmw, mercedes benz, nissan..etc
citdog, do you agree or disagree with the contention that GM has too many product lines/name plates and should consolidate them into just a few?citdog wrote:saab and buick occupied one building.....pontiac ang gmc another.....now all in buick building....dbackjon wrote: That sucks. When u say half, what do u mean?
What about SAAB's? It sucks but the gravy train is over.....we are laying of 20% of our workforce and closing two facilities....join the club.....it sucks for all of us.....citdog wrote:as of monday morning......I am closing half of my dealership and laying off 10 people.......thanks go to all of you who own a honda, kia, vw, hyuandi, bmw, mercedes benz, nissan..etc
I'd wait as well....you better have a waranty if you buy a GM product......HI54UNI wrote:One issue with the proposed bailout or bankruptcy. They need to shit or get off the pot. I've been thinking about getting a GMC truck but I'm not buying until I know what is going to happen. I don't want to buy a new truck and get screwed out of a warranty when GM files for bankruptcy.