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Please consider this:
I believe that were Obama not elected things in this country would be different than they are today... Now don't sarcastically laugh out loud just yet

Had a republican been elected nothing would have changed
Healthcare would not even be on the discussion table - and - Spending would have been exactly like it was under bush with no end in sight and status quo bullsh!t we've seen for a decade would still be actively in play....
But Obama affords us a different look and a different time table to work on issues. For starters he activated in a very real way a political movement where even fat old republican con artists who've been over spending and blatantly stealing for decades are no longer protected... this is new.
Everybody in politics is potentially under attack right now (and that is good) and the catalyst for this new attack and new level of attentiveness is Obama - yup - He has activated "Change" just like his slogan... But things don't always go as planned and the change he activated was not the change he anticipated (But so what) it's a change...

Without Obama we're still doing just exactly what we were doing under Bush
but now with Obama in office Republicans can really act out against what they've been pretending to care about for 40 years and that is Run-away spending.

Not once (as in NEVER) has a republican president left office with reduced spending and a smaller government than he took office with... But now (today) republicans can go back to pretending and possibly even acting on their core belief, and that is actually a good thing..!!!

This country actually needs Republicans that are fiscally conservative in practice (not in campaign slogan) and Democrats who are Programs enthusiasts... for too long both parties have been exactly the same when in office and only different in campaign slogan
Today we have a chance - if both parties can actually behave EXACTLY how they claim they behave and we can get a better America because of that... and the ball rests firmly in the Republicans court and I like what I see so far..

Change merely for the sake of change is never a good thing. I just don't get how trying to be "like" European countries who are in failure is "progress...."

Drunk and its not even 10:30 am.

Ron Paul 2012. Nuff said.

Chizzang wrote:Please consider this:
I believe that were Obama not elected things in this country would be different than they are today... Now don't sarcastically laugh out loud just yet

Had a republican been elected nothing would have changed
Healthcare would not even be on the discussion table - and - Spending would have been exactly like it was under bush with no end in sight and status quo bullsh!t we've seen for a decade would still be actively in play....
But Obama affords us a different look and a different time table to work on issues. For starters he activated in a very real way a political movement where even fat old republican con artists who've been over spending and blatantly stealing for decades are no longer protected... this is new.
Everybody in politics is potentially under attack right now (and that is good) and the catalyst for this new attack and new level of attentiveness is Obama - yup - He has activated "Change" just like his slogan... But things don't always go as planned and the change he activated was not the change he anticipated (But so what) it's a change...

Without Obama we're still doing just exactly what we were doing under Bush
but now with Obama in office Republicans can really act out against what they've been pretending to care about for 40 years and that is Run-away spending.

Not once (as in NEVER) has a republican president left office with reduced spending and a smaller government than he took office with... But now (today) republicans can go back to pretending and possibly even acting on their core belief, and that is actually a good thing..!!!

This country actually needs Republicans that are fiscally conservative in practice (not in campaign slogan) and Democrats who are Programs enthusiasts... for too long both parties have been exactly the same when in office and only different in campaign slogan
Today we have a chance - if both parties can actually behave EXACTLY how they claim they behave and we can get a better America because of that... and the ball rests firmly in the Republicans court and I like what I see so far..

I could quibble with some nits, but why? Generally you are right on the mark. If we had rocked along at $500B in deficits ( which were bad enough) the screaming would have been a mild increase. $1.5T caused a crescendo.

catamount man wrote:Ron Paul 2012. Nuff said.

I thought you were a Roosevelt Democrat

SuperHornet wrote:Change merely for the sake of change is never a good thing. I just don't get how trying to be "like" European countries who are in failure is "progress...."

Most of them are no worse off economically than us, and in some cases, much better..

Thoughtful piece, chizzang. Not sure in concept how "fiscal conservatives" and "Programs Enthusiasts" can meld well -- seems a little oxymoronic, actually -- but thought-provoking, nonetheless. I always thought "compassionate conservatism" was a bogus concept as well, because of the psychological overlay of increased spending.

Chizzang wrote:Please consider this:
I believe that were Obama not elected things in this country would be different than they are today... Now don't sarcastically laugh out loud just yet

Had a republican been elected nothing would have changed
Healthcare would not even be on the discussion table - and - Spending would have been exactly like it was under bush with no end in sight and status quo bullsh!t we've seen for a decade would still be actively in play....
But Obama affords us a different look and a different time table to work on issues. For starters he activated in a very real way a political movement where even fat old republican con artists who've been over spending and blatantly stealing for decades are no longer protected... this is new.
Everybody in politics is potentially under attack right now (and that is good) and the catalyst for this new attack and new level of attentiveness is Obama - yup - He has activated "Change" just like his slogan... But things don't always go as planned and the change he activated was not the change he anticipated (But so what) it's a change...

Without Obama we're still doing just exactly what we were doing under Bush
but now with Obama in office Republicans can really act out against what they've been pretending to care about for 40 years and that is Run-away spending.

Not once (as in NEVER) has a republican president left office with reduced spending and a smaller government than he took office with... But now (today) republicans can go back to pretending and possibly even acting on their core belief, and that is actually a good thing..!!!

This country actually needs Republicans that are fiscally conservative in practice (not in campaign slogan) and Democrats who are Programs enthusiasts... for too long both parties have been exactly the same when in office and only different in campaign slogan
Today we have a chance - if both parties can actually behave EXACTLY how they claim they behave and we can get a better America because of that... and the ball rests firmly in the Republicans court and I like what I see so far..

So you're saying, economically speaking, that we're out of the woods? Things can go back to 2005 levels minus a little spending?

It's all working out like I had hoped - voted for Obama in '08 and then helped to vote out the fat of the Democrats in Congress in '10 (after the fat of the GOP had been voted out in '06 and '08). All we needed was a national, political enima. It hasn't been perfect and you can argue more needs to be cleaned out, but it's a start. I think Obama is closer to the guy I elected now than he was when he was being controlled by the supermajority Dems when he was first elected.

GannonFan wrote:It's all working out like I had hoped - voted for Obama in '08 and then helped to vote out the fat of the Democrats in Congress in '10 (after the fat of the GOP had been voted out in '06 and '08). All we needed was a national, political enima. It hasn't been perfect and you can argue more needs to be cleaned out, but it's a start. I think Obama is closer to the guy I elected now than he was when he was being controlled by the supermajority Dems when he was first elected.

Gosh, GF, I wish I had your gift of prophecy.

Ivytalk wrote:

GannonFan wrote:It's all working out like I had hoped - voted for Obama in '08 and then helped to vote out the fat of the Democrats in Congress in '10 (after the fat of the GOP had been voted out in '06 and '08). All we needed was a national, political enima. It hasn't been perfect and you can argue more needs to be cleaned out, but it's a start. I think Obama is closer to the guy I elected now than he was when he was being controlled by the supermajority Dems when he was first elected.

Gosh, GF, I wish I had your gift of prophecy.

It isn't that hard. I didn't forsee the Dems getting the supermajority, but that just really helped them to succumb to their worst instincts faster and hence their meltdown in '10. Figure the GOP will win back the Senate in '12 while Obama wins the White House again and we'll have a perfectly balanced government for 2-4 years, until the GOP in Congress screws up and loses at least one of the chambers (who knows where the White House will go). If there's one certainty in American politics today, it's that both parties will do what they can to screw up when they come into power.

On another point, although I don't agree on how it was done or even how it's shaped, Obamacare is going to push us into the right direction of where we need to go - rationalized care. Getting to watch relatives become elderly and then access the health care system at their age, it's amazing the amount of waste that goes on under the guise of testing and surgery. We can talk about insurance and emergency room care until the cows come home, but until we rein in the amount of services that people "need" to have we're never going to fix the system. I don't know if that was really his master plan for this, although it does appear rationing care was part of it, but it's a necessary step to take.

Obama's been a good reality-check to the Left, but he's an idealistic amateur. He could've been much much better if he had waited - now he'll be essentially Bill Clinton 2.0 in a few years (without the baggage and without a political wife).

Ivytalk wrote:

GannonFan wrote:It's all working out like I had hoped - voted for Obama in '08 and then helped to vote out the fat of the Democrats in Congress in '10 (after the fat of the GOP had been voted out in '06 and '08). All we needed was a national, political enima. It hasn't been perfect and you can argue more needs to be cleaned out, but it's a start. I think Obama is closer to the guy I elected now than he was when he was being controlled by the supermajority Dems when he was first elected.

Gosh, GF, I wish I had your gift of prophecy.

GFs post sounded like a big "Whew" to me.

OL FU wrote:

Ivytalk wrote:
Gosh, GF, I wish I had your gift of prophecy.

GFs post sounded like a big "Whew" to me.

Sometimes you have to take a chance and roll the dice. I knew what we'd get from McCain, and it wasn't good. Obama was necessary at the time and, with the Dems causing their own ruin in '10, Obama's in a good spot now to get some things done.

GannonFan wrote:

OL FU wrote:
GFs post sounded like a big "Whew" to me.

Sometimes you have to take a chance and roll the dice. I knew what we'd get from McCain, and it wasn't good. Obama was necessary at the time and, with the Dems causing their own ruin in '10, Obama's in a good spot now to get some things done.

I agree with the sentiment re: Obama, and I think that was what a lot of voters were thinking...

as for the dems in 2010... we were holding a lot of seats that we had no business holding - and what frustrates me as a democrat is that we squandered a real opportunity by worrying too much about compromise and the 2010 elections... they should have nutted up, done the right thing, pushed through a national health plan - gotten creamed in November, like we were going to anyway... at least then we'd have something better to show for it.

as it is - if Obama goes the route of Clinton (without the zipper problem) I'd be very happy.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
Sometimes you have to take a chance and roll the dice. I knew what we'd get from McCain, and it wasn't good. Obama was necessary at the time and, with the Dems causing their own ruin in '10, Obama's in a good spot now to get some things done.

...
as it is - if Obama goes the route of Clinton (without the zipper problem) I'd be very happy.

Unemployed "elder" party statesman/ambassador without portfolio? Or does he go back to being the junior senator from Illinois?

Rob Iola wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
...
as it is - if Obama goes the route of Clinton (without the zipper problem) I'd be very happy.

Unemployed "elder" party statesman/ambassador without portfolio? Or does he go back to being the junior senator from Illinois?

successful two-term president who left the country better than where found it, and supported by 60%+ of the country.

GannonFan wrote:

Ivytalk wrote:
Gosh, GF, I wish I had your gift of prophecy.

It isn't that hard. I didn't forsee the Dems getting the supermajority, but that just really helped them to succumb to their worst instincts faster and hence their meltdown in '10. Figure the GOP will win back the Senate in '12 while Obama wins the White House again and we'll have a perfectly balanced government for 2-4 years, until the GOP in Congress screws up and loses at least one of the chambers (who knows where the White House will go). If there's one certainty in American politics today, it's that both parties will do what they can to screw up when they come into power.

On another point, although I don't agree on how it was done or even how it's shaped, Obamacare is going to push us into the right direction of where we need to go - rationalized care. Getting to watch relatives become elderly and then access the health care system at their age, it's amazing the amount of waste that goes on under the guise of testing and surgery. We can talk about insurance and emergency room care until the cows come home, but until we rein in the amount of services that people "need" to have we're never going to fix the system. I don't know if that was really his master plan for this, although it does appear rationing care was part of it, but it's a necessary step to take.

GannonFan, your eternal quest for the political Golden Mean has a pronounced portside tilt. You forthrightly advocate rationed care, although you wring your hands and say you "don't agree on how it was done or even how it's shaped." You've now shown your true color: a mild shade of pink.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

Rob Iola wrote: Unemployed "elder" party statesman/ambassador without portfolio? Or does he go back to being the junior senator from Illinois?

successful two-term president who left the country better than where found it, and supported by 60%+ of the country.

Two years into his first term his approval rating is below 50% and less than 35% of the country believes that we're headed in the right direction - http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - if the economy recovers sufficiently in the next 2 years he'll win reelection, if not he's Carter part deux...

Rob Iola wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
successful two-term president who left the country better than where found it, and supported by 60%+ of the country.

Two years into his first term his approval rating is below 50% and less than 35% of the country believes that we're headed in the right direction - http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - if the economy recovers sufficiently in the next 2 years he'll win reelection, if not he's Carter part deux...

i agree on the need for good economic news... i won't embrace the last half until the GOP shows a candidate that can win both their primary, and the general election... not seeing one right now.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

Rob Iola wrote: Two years into his first term his approval rating is below 50% and less than 35% of the country believes that we're headed in the right direction - http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - if the economy recovers sufficiently in the next 2 years he'll win reelection, if not he's Carter part deux...

i agree on the need for good economic news... i won't embrace the last half until the GOP shows a candidate that can win both their primary, and the general election... not seeing one right now.

Christie.

Rob Iola wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
i agree on the need for good economic news... i won't embrace the last half until the GOP shows a candidate that can win both their primary, and the general election... not seeing one right now.

Christie.

+1

Rob Iola wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
i agree on the need for good economic news... i won't embrace the last half until the GOP shows a candidate that can win both their primary, and the general election... not seeing one right now.

Christie.

that asshole? really? wow...

let me walk you though how he gets buried in the primary:

he's pro-choice, pro-gun control, weak on illegal immigration and in favor of the Ground Zero Mosque.

he also backed a bunch of RINO's in 2010...

he's got momentum right now because he's belligerent, loud mouthed, and on tv... it's not built to last.

Chizzang wrote:Please consider this:
I believe that were Obama not elected things in this country would be different than they are today... Now don't sarcastically laugh out loud just yet

Had a republican been elected nothing would have changed
Healthcare would not even be on the discussion table - and - Spending would have been exactly like it was under bush with no end in sight and status quo bullsh!t we've seen for a decade would still be actively in play....
But Obama affords us a different look and a different time table to work on issues. For starters he activated in a very real way a political movement where even fat old republican con artists who've been over spending and blatantly stealing for decades are no longer protected... this is new.
Everybody in politics is potentially under attack right now (and that is good) and the catalyst for this new attack and new level of attentiveness is Obama - yup - He has activated "Change" just like his slogan... But things don't always go as planned and the change he activated was not the change he anticipated (But so what) it's a change...

Without Obama we're still doing just exactly what we were doing under Bush
but now with Obama in office Republicans can really act out against what they've been pretending to care about for 40 years and that is Run-away spending.

Not once (as in NEVER) has a republican president left office with reduced spending and a smaller government than he took office with... But now (today) republicans can go back to pretending and possibly even acting on their core belief, and that is actually a good thing..!!!

This country actually needs Republicans that are fiscally conservative in practice (not in campaign slogan) and Democrats who are Programs enthusiasts... for too long both parties have been exactly the same when in office and only different in campaign slogan
Today we have a chance - if both parties can actually behave EXACTLY how they claim they behave and we can get a better America because of that... and the ball rests firmly in the Republicans court and I like what I see so far..

I see merit in your argument.