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Senate advances collective bargaining changes; Democrats to return after Assembly vote

"Madison — The Senate - without Democrats present - abruptly voted Wednesday to eliminate almost all collective bargaining for most public workers.

The bill, which has sparked unprecedented protests and drawn international attention, now heads to the Assembly, which is to take it up at 11 a.m. Thursday. The Assembly, which like the Senate is controlled by Republicans, passed an almost identical version of the bill Feb. 25.

The new version passed the Senate 18-1 Wednesday night, with Sen. Dale Schultz (R-Richland Center) casting the no vote. There was no debate

Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller (D-Monona) said Democrats who have been boycotting the Senate for three weeks would return to Wisconsin once the bill passes the Assembly, although he declined to be more specific.

From Feb. 17 until Wednesday, the Senate Democrats were able to block a vote on the bill because 20 senators were required to be present to vote for it. Republicans control the house 19-14.

Late Wednesday, a committee stripped fiscal elements from the bill that they said allowed them to pass it with a simple majority present. The most controversial parts of the bill remain intact."

Time for the cowards to come back home with their tails between their legs.

Congratulations conks. Nice political victory.

I'm sure the cops and firefighters are ecstatic.

Grizalltheway wrote:I'm sure the cops and firefighters are ecstatic.

Don't forget the widows and orphans, sorehead.

Ivytalk wrote:

Grizalltheway wrote:I'm sure the cops and firefighters are ecstatic.

Don't forget the widows and orphans, sorehead.

Yep. That's why they were exempted.

Walker pretty much fucked Republicans in WI for the next decade or so in order to win a petty ideological battle that will end up biting him and his colleagues in the ass.

Skjellyfetti wrote:Walker pretty much fucked Republicans in WI for the next decade or so in order to win a petty ideological battle that will end up biting him and his colleagues in the ass.

If Wisconsin's deficit shrinks and Walker is proven right, the Badger State will be red for many more elections to come.

Wisconsin will be blue in 2012. I'll put $500 on it.

Baldy wrote:

Skjellyfetti wrote:Walker pretty much fucked Republicans in WI for the next decade or so in order to win a petty ideological battle that will end up biting him and his colleagues in the ass.

If Wisconsin's deficit shrinks and Walker is proven right, the Badger State will be red for many more elections to come.

Of course their deficit will shrink. They cut business taxes, proving it was all about the deficit.

kalm wrote:

Baldy wrote:
If Wisconsin's deficit shrinks and Walker is proven right, the Badger State will be red for many more elections to come.

Of course their deficit will shrink. They cut business taxes, proving it was all about the deficit.

Considering the historical fact that cutting taxes increases revenue, and that Walker seems to be hell bent on cutting spending, you might actually be right this time.

I'll admit, I'm surprised they really went there... never thought they'd go this far...

*taking off partisan hack hat, putting on professional operative hat*

this seems like a tactical mistake, and not a small one... I really don't see this playing out well for them in the next few cycles

*resuming normal status*

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I'll admit, I'm surprised they really went there... never thought they'd go this far...

*taking off partisan hack hat, putting on professional operative hat*

this seems like a tactical mistake, and not a small one... I really don't see this playing out well for them in the next few cycles

*resuming normal status*

Agreed, Wisconsin will likely go blue after this.

I wonder though - is the devil in the details? Was a bargain struck between Walker and the Dems on this? What "fiscal elements" were eliminated from the bill, allowing the Conks to pass it and the Dems to return?

When it comes to Walkers, I'd rather talk about Herschel.

Rob Iola wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I'll admit, I'm surprised they really went there... never thought they'd go this far...

*taking off partisan hack hat, putting on professional operative hat*

this seems like a tactical mistake, and not a small one... I really don't see this playing out well for them in the next few cycles

*resuming normal status*

Agreed, Wisconsin will likely go blue after this.

I wonder though - is the devil in the details? Was a bargain struck between Walker and the Dems on this? What "fiscal elements" were eliminated from the bill, allowing the Conks to pass it and the Dems to return?

as i understand it, they stripped the fiscal elements of the bill and basically made it procedural so that they could pass it without a quorum... (in WI you don't need a quorum to pass bills that aren't about spending or revenue)

Grizalltheway wrote:I'm sure the cops and firefighters are ecstatic.

Who gives a fu*k if they are?

I get sick of the pedestal treatment they get for doing their jobs. You dont see a CPA, garbageman or a lawyer with that same tired "douchebag brotherhood mentality" that cops and firefighters have.

Hell the military isnt even as self promoting as those guys and they have a harder job for less pay.

If they dont like it they can leave and work elsewhere.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I'll admit, I'm surprised they really went there... never thought they'd go this far...

*taking off partisan hack hat, putting on professional operative hat*

this seems like a tactical mistake, and not a small one... I really don't see this playing out well for them in the next few cycles

*resuming normal status*

Who cares how it plays out in the future, he did what he was elected to do. That right there DESERVES another term because it doesnt happen often. I am glad he took the fight to them and didnt compromise, thats what leaders do.

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I'll admit, I'm surprised they really went there... never thought they'd go this far...

*taking off partisan hack hat, putting on professional operative hat*

this seems like a tactical mistake, and not a small one... I really don't see this playing out well for them in the next few cycles

*resuming normal status*

Who cares how it plays out in the future, he did what he was elected to do. That right there DESERVES another term because it doesnt happen often. I am glad he took the fight to them and didnt compromise, thats what leaders do.

Are you familiar with the concept of a Pyrrhic victory? I think that may be what happened here.

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:

Grizalltheway wrote:I'm sure the cops and firefighters are ecstatic.

Who gives a fu*k if they are?

I get sick of the pedestal treatment they get for doing their jobs. You dont see a CPA, garbageman or a lawyer with that same tired "douchebag brotherhood mentality" that cops and firefighters have.

Hell the military isnt even as self promoting as those guys and they have a harder job for less pay.

If they dont like it they can leave and work elsewhere.

Yeah, I mean CPAs, garbagemen, and lawyers run to danger and put their lives on the line all the time.

As far as the military, it depends on the MOS as to whether they are as self promoting and its harder because there is such a varyance in the jobs the military folks do. But as far as some of the more high speed MOSes, you'll find just as much of a brotherhood mentality.

BDKJMU wrote:

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:
Who gives a fu*k if they are?

I get sick of the pedestal treatment they get for doing their jobs. You dont see a CPA, garbageman or a lawyer with that same tired "douchebag brotherhood mentality" that cops and firefighters have.

Hell the military isnt even as self promoting as those guys and they have a harder job for less pay.

If they dont like it they can leave and work elsewhere.

Yeah, I mean CPAs, garbagemen, and lawyers run to danger and put their lives on the line all the time.

As far as the military, it depends on the MOS as to whether they are as self promoting and its harder because there is such a varyance in the jobs the military folks do. But as far as some of the more high speed MOSes, you'll find just as much of a brotherhood mentality.

Firemen work one day out of three and are swamped with applicants whenever a job comes open. Most of them never put out anything more than an empty field.

BDKJMU wrote:

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:
Who gives a fu*k if they are?

I get sick of the pedestal treatment they get for doing their jobs. You dont see a CPA, garbageman or a lawyer with that same tired "douchebag brotherhood mentality" that cops and firefighters have.

Hell the military isnt even as self promoting as those guys and they have a harder job for less pay.

If they dont like it they can leave and work elsewhere.

Yeah, I mean CPAs, garbagemen, and lawyers run to danger and put their lives on the line all the time.

As far as the military, it depends on the MOS as to whether they are as self promoting and its harder because there is such a varyance in the jobs the military folks do. But as far as some of the more high speed MOSes, you'll find just as much of a brotherhood mentality.

....and this is news to the fireman or policeman? It's a chosen career path, not mandatory service. While I can appreciate the work they perform, I also appreciate the work an engineer performs. I'll thank a cop & fireman for the service they perform just like I thank a waitress for the service she performs.....

Baldy wrote:

Skjellyfetti wrote:Walker pretty much fucked Republicans in WI for the next decade or so in order to win a petty ideological battle that will end up biting him and his colleagues in the ass.

If Wisconsin's deficit shrinks and Walker is proven right, the Badger State will be red for many more elections to come.

Baldy, first, I agree with Walker on this issue, but you are fucking crazy if you think Wisconsin is going to go red "for many elections to come".

Listen, you fucks caught the democrats sleeping in the midterms and even then you had to buy most of the victories with billions from coal producers and other fat cats.

What Walker (the Koch's) did was wake up a sleeping lion, at least here in Wisconsin. I would agree with your statement above if Walker would have gone about it in a better way. People here want to kill him and trust me, there aint no silent majority who are backing him.

Word of advice - stick with what you know - Georgia rednecks and WMD's

Walker won the battle, is going to lose the war, badly.

Many of these Republicans won't even make it to the next election.

dbackjon wrote:Walker won the battle, is going to lose the war, badly.

Many of these Republicans won't even make it to the next election.

Which is sad, because we need some of them. Walker is right, he's just a dumb man and asshole and he could have handled this better.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:Are you familiar with the concept of a Pyrrhic victory? I think that may be what happened here.

If the Dem's regain control in 2012 or 2014 and are able to restore collective bargaining then it will be a pyrrhic victory. If they regain control but are unable to restore collective bargaining, many Republicans would consider it a sacrifice worth making.

I for one do not think that teachers, police, fireman, and other government employees make too much money. I do believe that allowing them to strike (especially teachers, police & fireman) is a bad idea. I also question the wisdom of them being able to collectively bargain under rules established by people who they helped (with $ and with volunteer support) get elected. It's an inherent conflict of interest just as there are conflicts of interest between Wall St. and D.C. Just because it is happening somewhere else doesn't make either situation right.

A key element of the fight over union benefits is the type of pension. Many unions have defined benefit plans which many would argue are economically unfeasible especially in a public context. Most people with pensions have defined contribution plans where the employer agrees to contribute so much and upon retirement, the employee gets the dollars contributed plus investment returns. In a defined benefit plan, the employer promises the employee a set amount upon retirement. This type of plan is considered economically unfeasible for a number of reasons including if the market takes a dive the employer is on the hook for the lost returns which undermines their profitability (or in the government's case requires them to find money elsewhere). If the market does well, the plan's trustees have a tendency to improve benefits which puts the plan at greater risk if the market tanks in the future. The other issue with these plans from a public perspective is that governments have had a tendency to underfund them and use the money elsewhere (frequently on union friendly projects and thus with the blessings of union leaders) with the "intention" of making them whole in the future. Well, the piper has come to collect but the government can't afford to make these plans whole without serious cuts elsewhere. Federal regulations require that these plans be funded at 80%. They should be funded at 120% to prevent politicians (Donk & Conk) from raiding the piggy bank to pay for pet projects.

D1B wrote:Baldy, first, I agree with Walker on this issue, but you are **** crazy if you think Wisconsin is going to go red "for many elections to come".

Listen, you **** caught the democrats sleeping in the midterms and even then you had to buy most of the victories with billions from coal producers and other fat cats.

What Walker (the Koch's) did was wake up a sleeping lion, at least here in Wisconsin. I would agree with your statement above if Walker would have gone about it in a better way. People here want to kill him and trust me, there aint no silent majority who are backing him.

Correct, Wisconsin is a blue state (many consider Madison to be the Berkeley of the Midwest) and was going to return to blue in the future regardless of Walker's actions.

UNI88 wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:Are you familiar with the concept of a Pyrrhic victory? I think that may be what happened here.

If the Dem's regain control in 2012 or 2014 and are able to restore collective bargaining then it will be a pyrrhic victory. If they regain control but are unable to restore collective bargaining, many Republicans would consider it a sacrifice worth making.

I for one do not think that teachers, police, fireman, and other government employees make too much money. I do believe that allowing them to strike (especially teachers, police & fireman) is a bad idea. I also question the wisdom of them being able to collectively bargain under rules established by people who they helped (with $ and with volunteer support) get elected. It's an inherent conflict of interest just as there are conflicts of interest between Wall St. and D.C. Just because it is happening somewhere else doesn't make either situation right.

A key element of the fight over union benefits is the type of pension. Many unions have defined benefit plans which many would argue are economically unfeasible especially in a public context. Most people with pensions have defined contribution plans where the employer agrees to contribute so much and upon retirement, the employee gets the dollars contributed plus investment returns. In a defined benefit plan, the employer promises the employee a set amount upon retirement. This type of plan is considered economically unfeasible for a number of reasons including if the market takes a dive the employer is on the hook for the lost returns which undermines their profitability (or in the government's case requires them to find money elsewhere). If the market does well, the plan's trustees have a tendency to improve benefits which puts the plan at greater risk if the market tanks in the future. The other issue with these plans from a public perspective is that governments have had a tendency to underfund them and use the money elsewhere (frequently on union friendly projects and thus with the blessings of union leaders) with the "intention" of making them whole in the future. Well, the piper has come to collect but the government can't afford to make these plans whole without serious cuts elsewhere. Federal regulations require that these plans be funded at 80%. They should be funded at 120% to prevent politicians (Donk & Conk) from raiding the piggy bank to pay for pet projects.

D1B wrote:Baldy, first, I agree with Walker on this issue, but you are **** crazy if you think Wisconsin is going to go red "for many elections to come".

Listen, you **** caught the democrats sleeping in the midterms and even then you had to buy most of the victories with billions from coal producers and other fat cats.

What Walker (the Koch's) did was wake up a sleeping lion, at least here in Wisconsin. I would agree with your statement above if Walker would have gone about it in a better way. People here want to kill him and trust me, there aint no silent majority who are backing him.

Correct, Wisconsin is a blue state (many consider Madison to be the Berkeley of the Midwest) and was going to return to blue in the future regardless of Walker's actions.

Damn fine post '88.