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This seems perfectly reasonable to me. Government funding of education is a win for everyone, but there is definitely some abuse, and strings should be attached.

WASHINGTON -- Pell Grants are the nation's largest financial aid program, providing low-income students with grants to help pay for the rising cost of attending college. But the cost of the program is also growing rapidly, set to exceed $40 billion for the 2012 fiscal year.

Some lawmakers have been exploring ways to reducing the costs of the programs by lowering the maximum grant size -- which is currently $5,550 -- or somehow restricting eligibility. Rep. Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.) who chairs the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Labor, Health, and Human Services, Education that deals with the program, has examined whether there are ways to tie the grants to achievement or graduation rates.

In a radio interview on Friday, he compared Pell Grants to "welfare" and decried the fact that students who receive them don't have any sort of graduation requirement and could go straight from the education grant to "food stamps."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/0 ... 43712.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

kalm wrote:This seems perfectly reasonable to me. Government funding of education is a win for everyone, but there is definitely some abuse, and strings should be attached.

WASHINGTON -- Pell Grants are the nation's largest financial aid program, providing low-income students with grants to help pay for the rising cost of attending college. But the cost of the program is also growing rapidly, set to exceed $40 billion for the 2012 fiscal year.

Some lawmakers have been exploring ways to reducing the costs of the programs by lowering the maximum grant size -- which is currently $5,550 -- or somehow restricting eligibility. Rep. Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.) who chairs the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Labor, Health, and Human Services, Education that deals with the program, has examined whether there are ways to tie the grants to achievement or graduation rates.

In a radio interview on Friday, he compared Pell Grants to "welfare" and decried the fact that students who receive them don't have any sort of graduation requirement and could go straight from the education grant to "food stamps."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/0 ... 43712.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the problem isn't even close to what Rehberg is talking about.

You want to find the waste and abuse in the federal student loan system? go after the fucking diploma mills and "online universities" that charge a fortune, have no campus (thereby no real expenses to justify charging the same as a real four year school) and basically specialize in ripping off the system wholesale.

Those fuckers should be shut down. They are the ones (University of Phoenix alone has something like 70,000 people "enrolled") who are bilking taxpayers with no discernible benefit.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

kalm wrote:This seems perfectly reasonable to me. Government funding of education is a win for everyone, but there is definitely some abuse, and strings should be attached.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/0 ... 43712.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the problem isn't even close to what Rehberg is talking about.

You want to find the waste and abuse in the federal student loan system? go after the fucking diploma mills and "online universities" that charge a fortune, have no campus (thereby no real expenses to justify charging the same as a real four year school) and basically specialize in ripping off the system wholesale.

Those fuckers should be shut down. They are the ones (University of Phoenix alone has something like 70,000 people "enrolled") who are bilking taxpayers with no discernible benefit.

Ummmmm....I get your point, but I hate to burst your bubble. U of P has DOZENS of ACTUAL campuses, in addition to it's online option.

AZGrizFan wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
the problem isn't even close to what Rehberg is talking about.

You want to find the waste and abuse in the federal student loan system? go after the fucking diploma mills and "online universities" that charge a fortune, have no campus (thereby no real expenses to justify charging the same as a real four year school) and basically specialize in ripping off the system wholesale.

Those fuckers should be shut down. They are the ones (University of Phoenix alone has something like 70,000 people "enrolled") who are bilking taxpayers with no discernible benefit.

Ummmmm....I get your point, but I hate to burst your bubble. U of P has DOZENS of ACTUAL campuses, in addition to it's online option.

No way. Those UofP campuses are all just local Republican headquarters.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote: the problem isn't even close to what Rehberg is talking about.

You want to find the waste and abuse in the federal student loan system? go after the fucking diploma mills and "online universities" that charge a fortune, have no campus (thereby no real expenses to justify charging the same as a real four year school) and basically specialize in ripping off the system wholesale.

Those fuckers should be shut down. They are the ones (University of Phoenix alone has something like 70,000 people "enrolled") who are bilking taxpayers with no discernible benefit.

You do know that a lot of major universities have dedicated online courses, right? And you do know that some professors, in regular classes, allow their students to log on to view their classes, right? Heck, students can complete the entire course, including papers, while not attending a single class...just like the old days. And you do know that some tenured professors don't bother teaching their courses...they have Teaching Assistants that teach the bulk of the class while the professor drops in for a certain limited number of days, don't you?

Let's go after them...put them all in jail or make them pay....uh...somebody, for their sins.

And, you do realize that an Arts and Science based professor at Harvard and other left wing production mills probably isn't doing a whole lot more teaching of English/History/Geography/etc. than an Arts and Science based professor at Sloberknocker University, but the tuition charged, and the money made by Harvard is dramatically different, right?

So, TTBF is going after Harvard's tax status because they are bilking the taxpayers with no discernable benefit. Then he'll go after the churches...and then other non-profits. Soon he'll be a Republican.

I think what TTBF is going for is the Pell Grants shouldn’t be able to be used for the “for profit” education systems out there. And I agree with the idea that there should be some strings attached for these students who receive Pell Grants. Why not just put in that if the recipient doesn’t graduate in X* years, they will have to repay the grant back over X* years.

*Whatever time frame seems reasonable.

My BIL wasted his money on one of these over priced “for profit” institutions all for a lowly drafting credential. (I think it cost him in the neighborhood of 30k, all of it in loans of course.) I told him he should have taken a drafting course in high school which would have cost him nothing. (Which is what I did and it was a great tool that I used at my internships through college and occasionally use to this day.)

Frankly, government funding of higher education has simply been wasted for the most part. It's not just coincidence that as government has ramped up funding and loans for the very noble goal of helping people get college degrees that the average cost of tuition has increased at least by the same amount and often by much more. Basically, higher education support goes directly into the pockets of the schools at which the student goes. We can pick any number we want as to how much government can assist in loans or grants, and at the end of the day college tuition will magically increase by at least that number, meaning that those who are getting the loans or grants can't afford it any more than they could before, and even worse, people who can't get those loans or grants are even more unlikely to be able to afford it.

Complaining about "for profit" colleges and universities is just a red herring as well - every college is for profit, whether it be Harvard or the University of Phoenix. Someone majoring in English at Penn St isn't any better off than someone majoring in English through a mainly on-line University. Heck, it's mainly the traditional for profit schools that are complaining about the new for profit schools, and they're probably doing it because they don't like sharing the golden goose that is government funding and support for higher ed.

Again, it's an unintended consequence for a very worthwhile idea that unfortunately hasn't worked. We're making college more expensive, and without a coupled increase in value of college (heck, a college bachelor's degree has been devalued to a point now that we've opened the spigots) by blindly handing money over to the colleges and universities as they jack up the prices.

If the University of Phoenix can educate without campuses, then GOOD FOR THEM.

That idea alone can save billions every year in states budgets when we shut down the brick and mortar universities. It would save a ton in energy costs as well since we wont need to be heating/cooling or lighting these buildings anymore.

Getting rid of the current way "educators" () do business now is something we all should be glad to have happen, because they fu*king suck at it and its the single biggest waste of state and federal money we have.

AZGrizFan wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
the problem isn't even close to what Rehberg is talking about.

You want to find the waste and abuse in the federal student loan system? go after the fucking diploma mills and "online universities" that charge a fortune, have no campus (thereby no real expenses to justify charging the same as a real four year school) and basically specialize in ripping off the system wholesale.

Those fuckers should be shut down. They are the ones (University of Phoenix alone has something like 70,000 people "enrolled") who are bilking taxpayers with no discernible benefit.

Ummmmm....I get your point, but I hate to burst your bubble. U of P has DOZENS of ACTUAL campuses, in addition to it's online option.

U of P was an example for one - it's not so much about online or offline as it is the corporate-for-profit schools that specialize in bilking the loan system and providing shit for an education

think any "college" "university" that advertises heavily on daytime TV... Capella, U of P, Le Cordon Bleu (usually an extension of a local for-profit mill) these guys - if you've seen some of the undercover work - CNBC did a piece on this a few months ago - it's galling what they get away with.

the broader point about "significant academic progress" which actually IS required in the student loan program - but isn't nearly rigorous enough - is certainly well taken. the problem as i see it is figuring out how to reform it without hurting "non-traditional students" like parents going back to school at night, who are taking longer because they have other responsibilities.

Its galling what state Universitys and public schools get away with.

Rehberg is a hack, and an embarrassment.

End of story.

Cluck U wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
And, you do realize that an Arts and Science based professor at Harvard and other left wing production mills probably isn't doing a whole lot more teaching of English/History/Geography/etc. than an Arts and Science based professor at Sloberknocker University, but the tuition charged, and the money made by Harvard is dramatically different, right?

Left Wing Production Mills

Harvard Law school produces more Right Wing dingbats than Liberty College and BYU combined - you have NO IDEA what you're talking about Cluck U...

I would stick with evaluating The University of Delaware Community College and leave it at that

Wedgebuster wrote:Rehberg is a hack, and an embarrassment.

End of story.

Yep.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
Ummmmm....I get your point, but I hate to burst your bubble. U of P has DOZENS of ACTUAL campuses, in addition to it's online option.

U of P was an example for one - it's not so much about online or offline as it is the corporate-for-profit schools that specialize in bilking the loan system and providing shit for an education

think any "college" "university" that advertises heavily on daytime TV... Capella, U of P, Le Cordon Bleu (usually an extension of a local for-profit mill) these guys - if you've seen some of the undercover work - CNBC did a piece on this a few months ago - it's galling what they get away with.

the broader point about "significant academic progress" which actually IS required in the student loan program - but isn't nearly rigorous enough - is certainly well taken. the problem as i see it is figuring out how to reform it without hurting "non-traditional students" like parents going back to school at night, who are taking longer because they have other responsibilities.

Have you ever attended one of these schools you so easily dismiss as providing "shit for an education"?

AZGrizFan wrote:
Have you ever attended one of these schools you so easily dismiss as providing "shit for an education"?

Said the guy from Idaho...

Chizzang wrote:

Cluck U wrote:

Left Wing Production Mills

Harvard Law school produces more Right Wing dingbats than Liberty College and BYU combined - you have NO IDEA what you're talking about Cluck U...

I would stick with evaluating The University of Delaware Community College and leave it at that

Once again, Cleets decides to cherry pick. I didn't include Harvard's law school in my statement...wonder why.

Cluck U wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
Left Wing Production Mills

Harvard Law school produces more Right Wing dingbats than Liberty College and BYU combined - you have NO IDEA what you're talking about Cluck U...

I would stick with evaluating The University of Delaware Community College and leave it at that

Once again, Cleets decides to cherry pick. I didn't include Harvard's law school in my statement...wonder why.

Dude,
It sounds like you're the one cherry picking then...

Chizzang wrote:

Cluck U wrote:
Once again, Cleets decides to cherry pick. I didn't include Harvard's law school in my statement...wonder why.

Dude,
It sounds like you're the one cherry picking then...

Of course I cherry picked the departments! Heck, I'd never consider IvyTalk a liberal...and he completed his education at Harvard. Don't be so sensitive.

But none of that matters because the point made, besides that Harvard produces a lot of Liberals from their Liberal Arts programs, was that TTBF doesn't recognize that a Harvard professor doesn't teach English any better than a Podunk University professor...and yet Harvard (and their ring of professors) gets to collect a far larger payment for such service.

Non-profit brick and mortar universities...way too funny. But TTBF only wants to go after a select few online universities...while defending the status quo of the old schools. Very Republican of him.

AZGrizFan wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
U of P was an example for one - it's not so much about online or offline as it is the corporate-for-profit schools that specialize in bilking the loan system and providing shit for an education

think any "college" "university" that advertises heavily on daytime TV... Capella, U of P, Le Cordon Bleu (usually an extension of a local for-profit mill) these guys - if you've seen some of the undercover work - CNBC did a piece on this a few months ago - it's galling what they get away with.

the broader point about "significant academic progress" which actually IS required in the student loan program - but isn't nearly rigorous enough - is certainly well taken. the problem as i see it is figuring out how to reform it without hurting "non-traditional students" like parents going back to school at night, who are taking longer because they have other responsibilities.

Have you ever attended one of these schools you so easily dismiss as providing "shit for an education"?

unfortunately i do. I've had relatives attend La Cordeon Bleu's franchise colleges... a complete joke - they learned virtually nothing - which is more than I can say for my relative who used Capella - wracked up a huge loan debt - and got almost no closer to finishing her degree... (which... whatever, she was looking for a shortcut - got what she deserved really - but those loans were a waste)

I think that there is a difference between online programs at established schools and schools that are primarily online.

You can get your MBA from Duke online, and it is the same program as if you went to the brick and mortar classes. I have a MS from Boston University and most of it was done online. Getting a Master's is just an exercise in paper writing, anyway. Quite frankly, online was the only way I could have gotten my advanced degree, because onle Boston University and the University of Lousiville had the programs I was looking for, and there was no way to just quit work and move there.

I can't speak to the quality of the schools like U of P, but I have seen a couple of their 'campuses', they have one in North Charleston.

BTW- more on thread topic.... at one time Pell grants were available to anyone, including prison inmates. There was a time when prison lawyers were getting a lot of their education through the Pell system. I think I heard somewhere that prisoners could no longer get them, but not sure.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:Have you ever attended one of these schools you so easily dismiss as providing "shit for an education"?

unfortunately i do. I've had relatives attend La Cordeon Bleu's franchise colleges... a complete joke - they learned virtually nothing - which is more than I can say for my relative who used Capella - wracked up a huge loan debt - and got almost no closer to finishing her degree... (which... whatever, she was looking for a shortcut - got what she deserved really - but those loans were a waste)

Objection, your honor.

TTBF can't read...or chooses not to...but feels compelled to answer a direct question with nonsense because he wants to beef up his newest campaign.

"Relatives" wasn't the question.

Have YOU attended...and the answer is...drum roll...a firm, "No, but I know a twenty-third cousin who was a typical lazy liberal who - surprise - failed miserably because she wanted results without doing the work! But, my other thirty-second neice and her in-law removed four times also went to L'Accordion Blew to learn how to make sweet music that goes well with braised cabbage. Unfortunately, she also failed miserably because she is dumb enough to burn water. Her in-law just wanted to learn how to add flavor to his favorite weed, and said he can't remember anything but pretty colors on his computer screen. He doesn't own a computer, but he does have a wicked Sony Play Station set."

And with that...TTBF wants to destroy the new world of education...but not the old school money grabbers.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
Have you ever attended one of these schools you so easily dismiss as providing "**** for an education"?

unfortunately i do. I've had relatives attend La Cordeon Bleu's franchise colleges... a complete joke - they learned virtually nothing - which is more than I can say for my relative who used Capella - wracked up a huge loan debt - and got almost no closer to finishing her degree... (which... whatever, she was looking for a shortcut - got what she deserved really - but those loans were a waste)

Just to butt in here, but how does this differ from what millions of students get in terms of education once you move away from the first and second tiers of colleges and universities (and just assuming that those schools, in all the fields they offer, are "worth" the cost to attend, even at their current price levels)? What really makes Delaware Valley College worthwhile? How about Minnesota-Diluth? How about Carrie Underwood's alma mater, Northeastern State (OK) University and countless other schools that dot the landscape? Why are they "worth" the tens of thousands of dollars it costs to attend those places and new "for profit schools (and again, what school doesn't try to turn a profit?) aren't "worth" it? Is it just because they came first and are grandfathered in, regardless if they are "worth" it or not?

GannonFan wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
unfortunately i do. I've had relatives attend La Cordeon Bleu's franchise colleges... a complete joke - they learned virtually nothing - which is more than I can say for my relative who used Capella - wracked up a huge loan debt - and got almost no closer to finishing her degree... (which... whatever, she was looking for a shortcut - got what she deserved really - but those loans were a waste)

Just to butt in here, but how does this differ from what millions of students get in terms of education once you move away from the first and second tiers of colleges and universities (and just assuming that those schools, in all the fields they offer, are "worth" the cost to attend, even at their current price levels)? What really makes Delaware Valley College worthwhile? How about Minnesota-Diluth? How about Carrie Underwood's alma mater, Northeastern State (OK) University and countless other schools that dot the landscape? Why are they "worth" the tens of thousands of dollars it costs to attend those places and new "for profit schools (and again, what school doesn't try to turn a profit?) aren't "worth" it? Is it just because they came first and are grandfathered in, regardless if they are "worth" it or not?

because there is literally no commitment whatsoever to education from these for-profits. so long as your check clears, you will end up with a piece of paper. moreover, these institutions exist almost solely for the purpose of bilking the federal student loan system - whereas more legitimate schools actually have a legitimate educational mission. some of them may not be as prestigious as others - but since state governments subsidize their college and university systems extensively, it's pretty clear they aren't in the business of making money off of them.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
Just to butt in here, but how does this differ from what millions of students get in terms of education once you move away from the first and second tiers of colleges and universities (and just assuming that those schools, in all the fields they offer, are "worth" the cost to attend, even at their current price levels)? What really makes Delaware Valley College worthwhile? How about Minnesota-Diluth? How about Carrie Underwood's alma mater, Northeastern State (OK) University and countless other schools that dot the landscape? Why are they "worth" the tens of thousands of dollars it costs to attend those places and new "for profit schools (and again, what school doesn't try to turn a profit?) aren't "worth" it? Is it just because they came first and are grandfathered in, regardless if they are "worth" it or not?

because there is literally no commitment whatsoever to education from these for-profits. so long as your check clears, you will end up with a piece of paper. moreover, these institutions exist almost solely for the purpose of bilking the federal student loan system - whereas more legitimate schools actually have a legitimate educational mission. some of them may not be as prestigious as others - but since state governments subsidize their college and university systems extensively, it's pretty clear they aren't in the business of making money off of them.

But again, there are plenty of examples around the country of brick and mortar places where you almost just have to show up enough times to get a degree. It's not as if graduation rates at the less prestigious schools are low - they graduate plenty of people, regardless if they learned something or not.

And how do you assume just because they get subsidies that they aren't about making money off of their students? That's actually naive, very much unlike you. Tuition at colleges and universities part of state systems has mushroomed over the years too, again, right in line and often above federal student loan outlays. Interest in state schools in pulling in more out of state students (and hence higher tuitions) is also high - are they only doing that for the "educational mission"?

Are schools like the U of Phoenix pure and noble in their educational mission? I'm pretty sure they aren't. But I'm also pretty sure that they aren't all that different than almost every other brick and mortar institution out there - they like to make money, and the more the better.

Schools like University of Phoenix and other "for profits" cost a hell of a lot more than schools like Minnesota-Duluth and provide far less as far as education. Students are led to believe their classes will be transferable or acceptable by graduate schools. Then they come to find out they are... and stuck with large government loans, without the education or marketability to pay them off.

Students at "for profit" universities make up only 9% of student population... but, receive 25% of all federal grants and loans, and are 44% of all student loan defaults:
http://www.pewtrusts.org/news_room_detail.aspx?id=56473" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Top 3 Universities receiving Pell Grant money:
1. University of Phoenix
2. Everest College
3. Kaplan College

Employers and graduate schools generally look at these degrees as worthless... graduates can't find decent work... and can't pay off student loans.

Anyone interested in the "for profit" college thing should watch this Frontline: College, Inc:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... einc/view/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;