Just suppose with me my northern friends

[citdog]

Suppose that you had been born and raised in a place whose history, culture, traditions, mindset, and values set it as much apart from the rest of the 'late united states' as Switzerland from France or Ireland from England. Suppose you loved this place, its people and your own place in it very deeply; suppose, in fact, that you were so much a part of it that it was difficult to tell where it stopped and you began. Suppose that this place you cherished had once found itself at odds with other members of the union it had helped to found; had attempted to peaceably and in good faith to leave that union in accordance with the constitution of that very same union; and had instead been invaded and forced to fight a horrific war against overwhelming odds, during which its cities were burned and looted, its countryside ravaged, and its citizens robbed, brutalized, and murdered. Suppose that having lost the war, your homeland was further crippled by a dozen years of corrupt and vindictive military occupation called, with supreme irony, "Reconstruction".

Suppose, my friends of good faith, that this place you love subsequently became the repository for all of America's frustrations, the object of its ridicule and cynical exploitation, and the whipping boy for its national racial guilt trip. Suppose you had to listen to a daily litany of how your homeland was a dark and backward place populated by incestuous mongoloids. Suppose you were ridiculed for your accent, and your unabashed love for God, place, and family.

Suppose you found your history turned upside down and your heroes vilified to appease the professionally offended. Suppose your children were expelled from school, ostracized and even beaten for displaying the symbol their family fought and died under. Suppose that some northern municipalities where your brave family were buried so far from home refused to allow their graves to be decorated, even for a few hours, with the flag they died for. And suppose that when you objected, as an American, to this un-American treatment you were told to sit down and shut up, or be branded a racist or even un-American yourself.

Now my friends I know that's a GREAT DEAL of supposing, but try and manage it, if only for a moment. Our experiences as Americans are greatly and painfully different from yours in some respects. And people ask why why we are angry?


[youtube][/youtube]

[Chizzang]

Suppose all this happened 100 years before we were born...
and what is this - why are you selling this to us..?


(BTW: that little manifesto de Citdog is stuffed with cliche's, you might want to back off some of the romantic metaphor and sweeping grandiosity - it comes across a little narcissistic and more like an affliction or personality disorder than a point of expression)

[citdog]

Suppose all this happened 100 years before we were born...
and what is this - why are you selling this to us..?


(BTW: that little manifesto de Citdog is stuffed with cliche's, you might want to back off some of the romantic metaphor and sweeping grandiosity - it comes across a little narcissistic and more like an affliction or personality disorder than a point of expression)

"Clocks slay time....time is dead as long as it is being clicked off by little wheels; only when the clocks stop does time come to life" William Faulkner

"The past is never dead. It's not even past" William Faulkner

I was asked today why I was still angry about the events of The Late Unpleasantness and the result is above.

[∞∞∞]

I'm a little too out of it right now to understand that post citdog, but gals down here in the South are definitely hotter than the ones I was used to in the North. Dixie chicks = (except for the stereotypical fat wal-mart ones).

[Appaholic]

Suppose that you had been born and raised in a place whose history, culture, traditions, mindset, and values set it as much apart from the rest of the 'late united states' as Switzerland from France or Ireland from England. Suppose you loved this place, its people and your own place in it very deeply; suppose, in fact, that you were so much a part of it that it was difficult to tell where it stopped and you began. Suppose that this place you cherished had once found itself at odds with other members of the union it had helped to found; had attempted to peaceably and in good faith to leave that union in accordance with the constitution of that very same union; and had instead been invaded and forced to fight a horrific war against overwhelming odds, during which its cities were burned and looted, its countryside ravaged, and its citizens robbed, brutalized, and murdered. Suppose that having lost the war, your homeland was further crippled by a dozen years of corrupt and vindictive military occupation called, with supreme irony, "Reconstruction".

Suppose, my friends of good faith, that this place you love subsequently became the repository for all of America's frustrations, the object of its ridicule and cynical exploitation, and the whipping boy for its national racial guilt trip. Suppose you had to listen to a daily litany of how your homeland was a dark and backward place populated by incestuous mongoloids. Suppose you were ridiculed for your accent, and your unabashed love for God, place, and family.

Suppose you found your history turned upside down and your heroes vilified to appease the professionally offended. Suppose your children were expelled from school, ostracized and even beaten for displaying the symbol their family fought and died under. Suppose that some northern municipalities where your brave family were buried so far from home refused to allow their graves to be decorated, even for a few hours, with the flag they died for. And suppose that when you objected, as an American, to this un-American treatment you were told to sit down and shut up, or be branded a racist or even un-American yourself.

Now my friends I know that's a GREAT DEAL of supposing, but try and manage it, if only for a moment. Our experiences as Americans are greatly and painfully different from yours in some respects. And people ask why why we are angry?


[youtube][/youtube]

Suppose where there is smoke, there is usually fire. Speaking of fires, suppose you started a conflict that you couldn't finish to protect an institution built upon the backs of slave labor and suppose your punishment was to have everything you owned and cherished burnt to the ground. Suppose this end could have been avoided if you'd merely chosen to pick your own damn cotton...

[citdog]

Suppose that you had been born and raised in a place whose history, culture, traditions, mindset, and values set it as much apart from the rest of the 'late united states' as Switzerland from France or Ireland from England. Suppose you loved this place, its people and your own place in it very deeply; suppose, in fact, that you were so much a part of it that it was difficult to tell where it stopped and you began. Suppose that this place you cherished had once found itself at odds with other members of the union it had helped to found; had attempted to peaceably and in good faith to leave that union in accordance with the constitution of that very same union; and had instead been invaded and forced to fight a horrific war against overwhelming odds, during which its cities were burned and looted, its countryside ravaged, and its citizens robbed, brutalized, and murdered. Suppose that having lost the war, your homeland was further crippled by a dozen years of corrupt and vindictive military occupation called, with supreme irony, "Reconstruction".

Suppose, my friends of good faith, that this place you love subsequently became the repository for all of America's frustrations, the object of its ridicule and cynical exploitation, and the whipping boy for its national racial guilt trip. Suppose you had to listen to a daily litany of how your homeland was a dark and backward place populated by incestuous mongoloids. Suppose you were ridiculed for your accent, and your unabashed love for God, place, and family.

Suppose you found your history turned upside down and your heroes vilified to appease the professionally offended. Suppose your children were expelled from school, ostracized and even beaten for displaying the symbol their family fought and died under. Suppose that some northern municipalities where your brave family were buried so far from home refused to allow their graves to be decorated, even for a few hours, with the flag they died for. And suppose that when you objected, as an American, to this un-American treatment you were told to sit down and shut up, or be branded a racist or even un-American yourself.

Now my friends I know that's a GREAT DEAL of supposing, but try and manage it, if only for a moment. Our experiences as Americans are greatly and painfully different from yours in some respects. And people ask why why we are angry?


[youtube][/youtube]

Suppose where there is smoke, there is usually fire. Speaking of fires, suppose you started a conflict that you couldn't finish to protect an institution built upon the backs of slave labor and suppose your punishment was to have everything you owned and cherished burnt to the ground. Suppose this end could have been avoided if you'd merely chosen to pick your own damn cotton...

I blame Eli Whitney and Bush.

also sodomy

[TwinTownBisonFan]

we shoulda burned Richmond too.

[Appaholic]

we shoulda burned Richmond too.

Once you get off the Blue Ridge, there aren't many places in the south that wouldn't have benefitted from a good burning.....

[GannonFan]

Suppose that you had been born and raised in a place whose history, culture, traditions, mindset, and values set it as much apart from the rest of the 'late united states' as Switzerland from France or Ireland from England. Suppose you loved this place, its people and your own place in it very deeply; suppose, in fact, that you were so much a part of it that it was difficult to tell where it stopped and you began. Suppose that this place you cherished had once found itself at odds with other members of the union it had helped to found; had attempted to peaceably and in good faith to leave that union in accordance with the constitution of that very same union; and had instead been invaded and forced to fight a horrific war against overwhelming odds, during which its cities were burned and looted, its countryside ravaged, and its citizens robbed, brutalized, and murdered. Suppose that having lost the war, your homeland was further crippled by a dozen years of corrupt and vindictive military occupation called, with supreme irony, "Reconstruction".

Suppose, my friends of good faith, that this place you love subsequently became the repository for all of America's frustrations, the object of its ridicule and cynical exploitation, and the whipping boy for its national racial guilt trip. Suppose you had to listen to a daily litany of how your homeland was a dark and backward place populated by incestuous mongoloids. Suppose you were ridiculed for your accent, and your unabashed love for God, place, and family.

Suppose you found your history turned upside down and your heroes vilified to appease the professionally offended. Suppose your children were expelled from school, ostracized and even beaten for displaying the symbol their family fought and died under. Suppose that some northern municipalities where your brave family were buried so far from home refused to allow their graves to be decorated, even for a few hours, with the flag they died for. And suppose that when you objected, as an American, to this un-American treatment you were told to sit down and shut up, or be branded a racist or even un-American yourself.

Now my friends I know that's a GREAT DEAL of supposing, but try and manage it, if only for a moment. Our experiences as Americans are greatly and painfully different from yours in some respects. And people ask why why we are angry?


[youtube][/youtube]

Suppose where there is smoke, there is usually fire. Speaking of fires, suppose you started a conflict that you couldn't finish to protect an institution built upon the backs of slave labor and suppose your punishment was to have everything you owned and cherished burnt to the ground. Suppose this end could have been avoided if you'd merely chosen to pick your own damn cotton...

Agree with this - pick a better, more diverse economy, and none of this happens. The South was doomed by their own narrowmindeness.

[citdog]

Suppose where there is smoke, there is usually fire. Speaking of fires, suppose you started a conflict that you couldn't finish to protect an institution built upon the backs of slave labor and suppose your punishment was to have everything you owned and cherished burnt to the ground. Suppose this end could have been avoided if you'd merely chosen to pick your own damn cotton...

Agree with this - pick a better, more diverse economy, and none of this happens. The South was doomed by their own narrowmindeness.

We would have left the union anyway. The government had become but a tool for commerce and centralized which is not what we signed up for. It's really a shame that one section is pinned to the other with a blood soaked bayonet.

[GannonFan]

Agree with this - pick a better, more diverse economy, and none of this happens. The South was doomed by their own narrowmindeness.

We would have left the union anyway. The government had become but a tool for commerce and centralized which is not what we signed up for. It's really a shame that one section is pinned to the other with a blood soaked bayonet.

Nonsense. Wasn't anything high minded or principled about it. The South sold itself down the river to cotton. Cotton needed slaves to pick it. Cotton needed new lands to move into as agricultural practices were poor back then. The South needed to take slavery into those new territories. Hence the war. Sure there were numerous other details that get thrown in there, but without slavery, it never comes down to an armed conflict. People chatted about secession before, but it was just idle banter. Threaten the lifeblood of the South (i.e. slavery) and secession became very convenient. Everything else is just window dressing.

[citdog]

We would have left the union anyway. The government had become but a tool for commerce and centralized which is not what we signed up for. It's really a shame that one section is pinned to the other with a blood soaked bayonet.

Nonsense. Wasn't anything high minded or principled about it. The South sold itself down the river to cotton. Cotton needed slaves to pick it. Cotton needed new lands to move into as agricultural practices were poor back then. The South needed to take slavery into those new territories. Hence the war. Sure there were numerous other details that get thrown in there, but without slavery, it never comes down to an armed conflict. People chatted about secession before, but it was just idle banter. Threaten the lifeblood of the South (i.e. slavery) and secession became very convenient. Everything else is just window dressing.

Being a Southerner myself and quite familiar with The Cause, I disagree with the esteemed fellow above who is also from a servant owning State. State Powers WAS the issue that led to the collision between the Sovereign States and their CREATION the national government. It matters not what that State Power WAS. It could have been widgets. It does not change the fact that under the Constitution and other founding documents all the Southern States had to do was withdraw their consent because we all know that "the power of the government is in the consent of the people" and that "any people, anywhere" etc etc

Nowhere in any of the founding documents is there any basis for the coercion of any State.

[Rob Iola]

Nonsense. Wasn't anything high minded or principled about it. The South sold itself down the river to cotton. Cotton needed slaves to pick it. Cotton needed new lands to move into as agricultural practices were poor back then. The South needed to take slavery into those new territories. Hence the war. Sure there were numerous other details that get thrown in there, but without slavery, it never comes down to an armed conflict. People chatted about secession before, but it was just idle banter. Threaten the lifeblood of the South (i.e. slavery) and secession became very convenient. Everything else is just window dressing.

Being a Southerner myself and quite familiar with The Cause, I disagree with the esteemed fellow above who is also from a servant owning State. State Powers WAS the issue that led to the collision between the Sovereign States and their CREATION the national government. It matters not what that State Power WAS. It could have been widgets. It does not change the fact that under the Constitution and other founding documents all the Southern States had to do was withdraw their consent because we all know that "the power of the government is in the consent of the people" and that "any people, anywhere" etc etc

Nowhere in any of the founding documents is there any basis for the coercion of any State.

So.... slavery's ok then?

[citdog]

Being a Southerner myself and quite familiar with The Cause, I disagree with the esteemed fellow above who is also from a servant owning State. State Powers WAS the issue that led to the collision between the Sovereign States and their CREATION the national government. It matters not what that State Power WAS. It could have been widgets. It does not change the fact that under the Constitution and other founding documents all the Southern States had to do was withdraw their consent because we all know that "the power of the government is in the consent of the people" and that "any people, anywhere" etc etc

Nowhere in any of the founding documents is there any basis for the coercion of any State.

So.... slavery's ok then?

Morally indefensible in any time but perfectly legal at that time and the Corwin Amendment, the real 13th, would have protected it for all time if independence from tyranny was not our true goal.

[GannonFan]

So.... slavery's ok then?

Morally indefensible in any time but perfectly legal at that time and the Corwin Amendment, the real 13th, would have protected it for all time if independence from tyranny was not our true goal.

For all time, that is, until such an ammendment could be overturned by a subsequent ammendement. The South knew that any ammendment could be reversed in the future and that slavery could always be taken away from them. If slavery didn't matter to the South, then why are all the articles of seccession virtually littered with references to protecting slavery and the institution? Seems odd to make such a stink over slavery and how important it was in all the documents declaring separation but to now, 150 years later, say it was just a smokescreen.

[93henfan]

Suppose that you had been born and raised in a place whose history, culture, traditions, mindset, and values set it as much apart from the rest of the 'late united states' as Switzerland from France or Ireland from England. Suppose you loved this place, its people and your own place in it very deeply; suppose, in fact, that you were so much a part of it that it was difficult to tell where it stopped and you began. Suppose that this place you cherished had once found itself at odds with other members of the union it had helped to found; had attempted to peaceably and in good faith to leave that union in accordance with the constitution of that very same union; and had instead been invaded and forced to fight a horrific war against overwhelming odds, during which its cities were burned and looted, its countryside ravaged, and its citizens robbed, brutalized, and murdered. Suppose that having lost the war, your homeland was further crippled by a dozen years of corrupt and vindictive military occupation called, with supreme irony, "Reconstruction".

Suppose, my friends of good faith, that this place you love subsequently became the repository for all of America's frustrations, the object of its ridicule and cynical exploitation, and the whipping boy for its national racial guilt trip. Suppose you had to listen to a daily litany of how your homeland was a dark and backward place populated by incestuous mongoloids. Suppose you were ridiculed for your accent, and your unabashed love for God, place, and family.

Suppose you found your history turned upside down and your heroes vilified to appease the professionally offended. Suppose your children were expelled from school, ostracized and even beaten for displaying the symbol their family fought and died under. Suppose that some northern municipalities where your brave family were buried so far from home refused to allow their graves to be decorated, even for a few hours, with the flag they died for. And suppose that when you objected, as an American, to this un-American treatment you were told to sit down and shut up, or be branded a racist or even un-American yourself.

Now my friends I know that's a GREAT DEAL of supposing, but try and manage it, if only for a moment. Our experiences as Americans are greatly and painfully different from yours in some respects. And people ask why why we are angry?


[youtube][/youtube]

I suppose I would get with the times and move on with my life.

Hell, you rednecks pining for old times are about as bad as blacks that think they are still owed something.

GTF over it, homeslice.

[citdog]

Morally indefensible in any time but perfectly legal at that time and the Corwin Amendment, the real 13th, would have protected it for all time if independence from tyranny was not our true goal.

For all time, that is, until such an ammendment could be overturned by a subsequent ammendement. The South knew that any ammendment could be reversed in the future and that slavery could always be taken away from them. If slavery didn't matter to the South, then why are all the articles of seccession virtually littered with references to protecting slavery and the institution? Seems odd to make such a stink over slavery and how important it was in all the documents declaring separation but to now, 150 years later, say it was just a smokescreen.

ok gannon I will say it one more time. The keeping of servants WAS the State Power. But it doesn't matter what it was. Any State can withdraw from the contract for any reason, anytime. Isn't that what VOLUNTARY means?

[citdog]

Suppose that you had been born and raised in a place whose history, culture, traditions, mindset, and values set it as much apart from the rest of the 'late united states' as Switzerland from France or Ireland from England. Suppose you loved this place, its people and your own place in it very deeply; suppose, in fact, that you were so much a part of it that it was difficult to tell where it stopped and you began. Suppose that this place you cherished had once found itself at odds with other members of the union it had helped to found; had attempted to peaceably and in good faith to leave that union in accordance with the constitution of that very same union; and had instead been invaded and forced to fight a horrific war against overwhelming odds, during which its cities were burned and looted, its countryside ravaged, and its citizens robbed, brutalized, and murdered. Suppose that having lost the war, your homeland was further crippled by a dozen years of corrupt and vindictive military occupation called, with supreme irony, "Reconstruction".

Suppose, my friends of good faith, that this place you love subsequently became the repository for all of America's frustrations, the object of its ridicule and cynical exploitation, and the whipping boy for its national racial guilt trip. Suppose you had to listen to a daily litany of how your homeland was a dark and backward place populated by incestuous mongoloids. Suppose you were ridiculed for your accent, and your unabashed love for God, place, and family.

Suppose you found your history turned upside down and your heroes vilified to appease the professionally offended. Suppose your children were expelled from school, ostracized and even beaten for displaying the symbol their family fought and died under. Suppose that some northern municipalities where your brave family were buried so far from home refused to allow their graves to be decorated, even for a few hours, with the flag they died for. And suppose that when you objected, as an American, to this un-American treatment you were told to sit down and shut up, or be branded a racist or even un-American yourself.

Now my friends I know that's a GREAT DEAL of supposing, but try and manage it, if only for a moment. Our experiences as Americans are greatly and painfully different from yours in some respects. And people ask why why we are angry?


[youtube][/youtube]

I suppose I would get with the times and move on with my life.

Hell, you rednecks pining for old times are about as bad as blacks that think they are still owed something.

GTF over it, homeslice.

All that I am owed is a government, flag, and nationality of my own.

[93henfan]

There's probably still some affordable land left in Central America.