Tman has some good points, but again, he (and you) failed to adequetly address Jon's statement about the R party being hijacked by the religious right. He simply states it's (special interests) a national problem, and it is to a certain extent, but it's effect specifically on the republican party has been remarkable.AZGrizFan wrote:Once again, the cs.com voice of reason has spoken.travelinman67 wrote: This isn't just about religion spoiling a party with litmus issues. The entire American political process has been manipulated by special interests who divide and conquer. Regardless of that group's interests, forcing an issue into an "all or nothing" test, by it's nature, eliminates reason from the debate. This has gone on since the dawn of politics, yet folks who have had the power to force issues into the arena to be debated openly with all sides being represented, formerly called "statesmen", have vanished. There are a few left in Washington, but attempts to represent and debate get shouted down by the NGO's representing special interests.
This is not a Donk or Conk issue. The "Christian" right is not the Dark Force. Nor are the Gays. This is simply a period of time when special interests control the process.
Ask yourself, "If society would acknowledge equal rights for gays, including the rights to marriage, and marital benefits in the workplace, elimination of all overtly codified prohibitions against homosexuality, but absent the provisions to allow for the constitutional recognition of gay rights via court mandated decrees applicable to education, AND the prohibition of tort damages in any former case of discrimination, would that be acceptable to me?"
Think about it. Based on everything you've said in the past, equal rights, marriage, benefits; you'd have to answer in the affirmative.
But that IS NOT what the leaders of the gay rights would be willing to accept. I'd stake my life on it.
Because the Gay rights movement, just as with most other movements that have emerged in the past 40 years since CRA, have also included mechanisms to guarantee the beneficiary of the new law the ability to:
1) Collect tort damages on past and future acts of discrimination.
2) Compel the education curricula and government agencies to take action to affirmatively recognize and promote the recently empowered class.
3) Require reparation by organizations that previously opposed equal rights, either financial, or by public apology and affirmation, to the new class, including mandatory adoption of doctrinal changes to codify the "past error", and state the organization's support of the new class.
Say it ain't so.
The above is why the Christians, and all other groups who oppose homosexuality for doctrinal, spiritual, or philisophical reasons will never agree to accept the "equal rights" concept. It's not just about "equal rights", it's about forcing others to say "uncle", with their wallet out, a smile on their face. It's called "humiliation".
A good negotiation has both sides walking out feeling like they've accomplished something.
A war has one side forcing the other to admit defeat in total submission.
Take the money off the table, and the lawyers out of the process, Jon, and this stops being a war, and becomes a constitutional amendment.
(...back to my original comment regarding the religious right...don't allow yourself to get sucked into that "hate" corner by the special interests. Otherwise, you'll fall into the same category as the Phelps of this world. Just another hateful loon, on the other side of the street.)
All hail the voice of reason. You too, D1B.
The fact is the Christian Right is a dark force and since Reagan has been the primary agent of hate and divisiveness in America. It's also a fact that christian right owns the republican party.
I believe even you thought it very possible that the rep party will split in two eventually, with the christians in lock step with industrialist on the hate and divisiveness platform and the moderates, social liberals, fiscal conservatives on the focus on efficiently running the country and stay out of our affairs platform.