Can we stop the "It's not Islam" crap?

[JohnStOnge]

I know there's a thread on the London thing. But I'm focusing on one aspect of it that's a symptom of a larger phenomenon. It's that crap of being in denial about Islam itself being a factor.

After the "hack him up" attack in London, British Prime Minister David Cameron said this:

This was not just an attack on Britain and on the British way of life. It was also a betrayal of Islam and of the Muslim communities who give so much to our country

And he said:

There is nothing in Islam that justifies this truly dreadful act.

Stop. Just stop.

What a load of nonsense. Look, I know I'm big on not inferring cause and effect on the basis of observational data. But I've also said that you do reach a point where you don't need an experiment to know something is a causal factor. Like if you see a dog get hit by an 18 wheeler you know getting hit by the 18 wheeler caused the dog to die.

And Islam is CLEARLY a causal factor in this stuff. It's not just violent attacks like the one yesterday either. You look at most countries in which Islam has a majority of the population and they're persecuting people of other faiths. People of other faith are either consigned to second or third class citizenship or they are out and out physically attacked. Or both.

We have a principle of freedom of religion and that's a good principle. But at the same time it's not good to deny that a particular religion is a problem. And Islam is a problem. You may think other religions are problems too. But if they are Islam is a lot bigger one. A LOT bigger. It's not close.

[∞∞∞]

It's not though. You need to look at the whole picture, including economic, educational, and social factors. For example, comparing European and American Muslims is like comparing apples to oranges. Muslims came to Europe post-WWII as unskilled and uneducated laborers. Like many black families here, generations became stuck in a brutal cycle of poverty and are more susceptible to radicalism (gangs, terrorism, etc.).

Compare that to US Muslims where the average one, immigrated or home born, is highly educated and upper-middle class, and you can see why comparing Muslims worldwide is an exercise in futility. Like any other thing in life, it's a number of factors you need to look at before generalizing. Each person is their own person with their own back story and needs to be judged so accordingly.

[AZGrizFan]

It's not though. You need to look at the whole picture, including economic, educational, and social factors. For example, comparing European and American Muslims is like comparing apples to oranges. Muslims came to Europe post-WWII as unskilled and uneducated laborers. Like many black families here, generations became stuck in a brutal cycle of poverty and are more susceptible to radicalism (gangs, terrorism, etc.).

Compare that to US Muslims where the average one, immigrated or born here, is highly educated and upper-middle class, and you can see why comparing Muslims worldwide is an exercise in futility. Like any other thing in life, it's a number of factors you need to look at before generalizing. Each person is their own person and needs to be judged so accordingly.

Not true. Just ask Douche1Bag. He's got it all figured out.

[JohnStOnge]

It's not though. You need to look at the whole picture, including economic, educational, and social factors.

I did think about the question of other factors. I just didn't write about it because people complain about how long my posts are and that one was already long. I have no doubt at all that if somebody were looking at the question of whether or not subscribing to Islam is a factor in the likelihood of somebody doing this kind of stuff and they took every other measurable factor they could think of and is measurable into account subscribing to Islam would remain as a factor. In other words, if they did any reasonably honest analysis, they would not make subscribing to Islam being a factor "go away" by "controlling" for other factors.

And by "this kind of stuff" I'm not just talking about violent attack. I'm talking about violent attack that has nothing to do with direct personal gain such as robbery or attacking someone because of personal jealousy or something. This London thing was a little in gray area because they just attacked with blades. But stuff like planting bombs near the finish line of the Boston Marathon to indiscriminately kill people or blowing up buses or attacking hotels or blowing up commercial airliners etc. is clearly in the zone of what I'm talking about.

To say Islam is not a causal factor in that in today's world is, as I said, being in denial.

[JohnStOnge]

Compare that to US Muslims where the average one, immigrated or home born, is highly educated and upper-middle class, and you can see why comparing Muslims worldwide is an exercise in futility.

Really? See http://abcnews.go.com/US/muslim-man-gui ... Z6zp5x_NFs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . And I think you know I can find a number of other stories like that. Plus didn't we just recently have a couple of Muslims who had become citizens try to blow up a bunch of people at the Boston Marathon? How about the guy who shot a bunch of military people Fort Hood Texas while shouting Islamic slogans? Again, I think you know I could find other stories. There are differences between Muslim communities in different nations and there are similarities. Doesn't change the fact that Islam is a factor in "this kind of stuff."

Like any other thing in life, it's a number of factors you need to look at before generalizing. Each person is their own person with their own back story and needs to be judged so accordingly.

I think you know me well enough to know that I always think of the variety of possible factors in any event. And I agree that you do have to judge each individual as an individual. What I'm talking about is this: If you were to randomly select a person who subscribes to Islam, the probability that the person you select has been involved or will be involved in "this kind of thing" is higher than the probability that a person randomly selected from the population of non Muslims would be. And it would be a LOT higher in relative risk terms. And I think you could make a model that takes every other factor that might contribute to doing "this kind of thing" you can think of into account and Islam would remain as a factor. In fact I think it would be the most important factor. And I think it's obvious.

[CID1990]

It's not though. You need to look at the whole picture, including economic, educational, and social factors. For example, comparing European and American Muslims is like comparing apples to oranges. Muslims came to Europe post-WWII as unskilled and uneducated laborers. Like many black families here, generations became stuck in a brutal cycle of poverty and are more susceptible to radicalism (gangs, terrorism, etc.).

Compare that to US Muslims where the average one, immigrated or home born, is highly educated and upper-middle class, and you can see why comparing Muslims worldwide is an exercise in futility. Like any other thing in life, it's a number of factors you need to look at before generalizing. Each person is their own person with their own back story and needs to be judged so accordingly.

Here's the problem.

Islam is not self policing. These days, Christianity is. Fundamentalist Christians are complete pariahs in the entire western world. Most Christians are moderate, and they are vocal to the point of cacophony in opposition to the Eric Rudolph enclave.

Contrast this with Islam at large. Mainstream Muslims speak up, but they do not speak out, or seriously challenge the radicals. They are full of caveats. "This is horrible. This is not Islam. BUT... the West is Islamophobic, the West is waging a war on Islam. Oh and by the way, Death To Israel." The supposed mouthpiece for what is supposed to be moderate Islam in America; CAIR, is a material supporter of Islamic violence in Israel.

The moderate Muslims need to take a chapter from the moderate Christians and start marginalizing these murder monkeys or else the predominately Muslim countries are going to remain global pariahs from the western standpoint, and the vicious circle will continue. This is not a cycle the Muslim world can win.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Bronco]

-
The president and our media has decided that we can't handle the truth

ABC, CBS, NBC Evening Shows Fail To Mention Islam In London Terror Attack Reporting…




Via Newsbusters:

What does a murderous jihadist terrorist have to do to get some recognition for his cause? You hack a British soldier to death in broad daylight on a London street while shouting “Allahu akbar” and then “swear by the almighty Allah” that you’ll never stop fighting, and the U.S. broadcast networks still can’t bring themselves to utter a word about Islam.

True, the ABC, CBS and NBC evening broadcasts called the attack “terrorism,” but for all the information they gave viewers, the attackers might have been Basque separatists or animal rights zealots.
On “Nightly News” NBC anchor Brian Williams said the attackers allowed “people to take video while they vent their message about religion and politics.” Correspondent Michelle Kosinski said one of the attackers “made a long political statement, weapons still in his blood-covered hands.”

CBS “Evening News with Scott Pelley” went a bit further, as reporter Charlie D’Agata mentioned that “Witnesses said that the men shouted ‘god is great’ in Arabic during the attacks.” Hmmm. Presbyterians maybe?

Over at ABC, on “World News with Diane Sawyer,” reporter Lama Hasan would only say British authorities were trying to find out including “whether or not one of [the attackers] is of African origin with ties to terrorist groups.” Of the one attacker’s video rant, Dian Sawyer said, “officials in the United States and the United Kingdom are studying the meaning of this tape.” Yes, it’s a real head-scratcher.

[psychoCAT]

Only a complete Muslim takeover of the NBC, CBS and ABC studios will ever get those jackoffs to finally admit it. Sheesh. Fuck Muhammad! I'll wear a t-shirt with his image on it in downtown Mecca, take it off and shit it in right in front of their smelling, sweaty, curry eating asses! Fuck them! If the Brits had any balls, they would bring these 2 pieces of shit out into the square and fucking firing squad their asses. Alas, Britain lost their balls when Churchill died.

[houndawg]

Dipshits like you are the reason people laugh at religion.

[kalm]

Dipshits like you are the reason people laugh at religion.

Meahwhile, buddhists are killing muslims in Myanmar. Google image search buddhists killing muslims and you'll see some truly fucked up things.

[GannonFan]

Europe also has the other thing that we don't have nearly as much of here - Europe is rabidly racist taken as a whole. Sure, there's plenty of racism in America, but when was the last time sports crowds in America taunted black players by making monkey sounds and throwing bananas on the field? That kind of stuff happens frequently in Italy, let alone in poorer countries like many in Eastern Europe. Sergio breaks out the "fried chicken" reference when making jokes about Tiger (seriously, with all the material Tiger has put out there with his philandering and Denny's waitresses Sergio has to go to the fried chicken? Was watermelon next? Sheesh). And when it comes to assimilating other cultures and races, it's almost non-existent - if you're of a particular color then you live in certain places and that's it. And that's assumig there are even people of different colors in many of these places. Europe is amazingly monochrome in much of the continent. For all the issues we have in this country with race, we are light years ahead of the blatant racism that pervades Europe today.

[D1B]

It's not though. You need to look at the whole picture, including economic, educational, and social factors. For example, comparing European and American Muslims is like comparing apples to oranges. Muslims came to Europe post-WWII as unskilled and uneducated laborers. Like many black families here, generations became stuck in a brutal cycle of poverty and are more susceptible to radicalism (gangs, terrorism, etc.).

Compare that to US Muslims where the average one, immigrated or born here, is highly educated and upper-middle class, and you can see why comparing Muslims worldwide is an exercise in futility. Like any other thing in life, it's a number of factors you need to look at before generalizing. Each person is their own person and needs to be judged so accordingly.

Not true. Just ask Douche1Bag. He's got it all figured out.

Still smarting from the weather and banking jabs, I see.

Keep this up and I'll sic houndawg on you. You'll need to contact a sail manufacturer to get your canvas flaps.

[AZGrizFan]

Not true. Just ask Douche1Bag. He's got it all figured out.

Still smarting from the weather and banking jabs, I see.

Keep this up and I'll sic houndawg on you. You'll need to contact a sail manufacturer to get your canvas flaps.

The canvas flaps thing is his schtick. Jesus H. Christ, you've fallen so far you can't even come up with your own material now?

What happened to the D of 5-7 years ago?

[D1B]

Still smarting from the weather and banking jabs, I see.

Keep this up and I'll sic houndawg on you. You'll need to contact a sail manufacturer to get your canvas flaps.

The canvas flaps thing is his schtick. Jesus H. Christ, you've fallen so far you can't even come up with your own material now?

What happened to the D of 5-7 years ago?

Ahhh, employing the Grizo Gambit.... Pretty weak, Z. Keep it up and you'll get a visit from this fellah...

[AZGrizFan]

The canvas flaps thing is his schtick. Jesus H. Christ, you've fallen so far you can't even come up with your own material now?

What happened to the D of 5-7 years ago?

Ahhh, employing the Grizo Gambit.... Pretty weak, Z. Keep it up and you'll get a visit from this fellah...

Says the guy who can't seem to get Houndawg's nuts out of his mouth.

[D1B]

Ahhh, employing the Grizo Gambit.... Pretty weak, Z. Keep it up and you'll get a visit from this fellah...

Says the guy who can't seem to get Houndawg's nuts out of his mouth.

Pathetic retort from Captain Canvas Flaps.

[Ivytalk]

Name me one Western society in which Muslims have been culturally assimilated.

I rest my case.

[kalm]

Name me one Western society in which Muslims have been culturally assimilated.

I rest my case.

Turkey!

But define Western society.

[Ivytalk]

Name me one Western society in which Muslims have been culturally assimilated.

I rest my case.

Turkey!

But define Western society.

Turkey? Just because of the happenstance that a teensy bit of it might be in Europe?

Offhand, I'd include the US, Canada, most of Europe (maybe not Russia), the ANZAC countries, Israel, and maybe South Africa in my geographical definition of Western society. Common cultural, religious, educational and political heritages. Not everyone will agree with this list. Now go for it, big guy.

[mrklean]

It's not though. You need to look at the whole picture, including economic, educational, and social factors. For example, comparing European and American Muslims is like comparing apples to oranges. Muslims came to Europe post-WWII as unskilled and uneducated laborers. Like many black families here, generations became stuck in a brutal cycle of poverty and are more susceptible to radicalism (gangs, terrorism, etc.).

Compare that to US Muslims where the average one, immigrated or home born, is highly educated and upper-middle class, and you can see why comparing Muslims worldwide is an exercise in futility. Like any other thing in life, it's a number of factors you need to look at before generalizing. Each person is their own person with their own back story and needs to be judged so accordingly.

Here's the problem.

Islam is not self policing. These days, Christianity is. Fundamentalist Christians are complete pariahs in the entire western world. Most Christians are moderate, and they are vocal to the point of cacophony in opposition to the Eric Rudolph enclave.

Contrast this with Islam at large. Mainstream Muslims speak up, but they do not speak out, or seriously challenge the radicals. They are full of caveats. "This is horrible. This is not Islam. BUT... the West is Islamophobic, the West is waging a war on Islam. Oh and by the way, Death To Israel." The supposed mouthpiece for what is supposed to be moderate Islam in America; CAIR, is a material supporter of Islamic violence in Israel.

The moderate Muslims need to take a chapter from the moderate Christians and start marginalizing these murder monkeys or else the predominately Muslim countries are going to remain global pariahs from the western standpoint, and the vicious circle will continue. This is not a cycle the Muslim world can win.


Sent from the center of the universe.

Dayum, hes 1000% right for a change

[houndawg]

It's not though. You need to look at the whole picture, including economic, educational, and social factors. For example, comparing European and American Muslims is like comparing apples to oranges. Muslims came to Europe post-WWII as unskilled and uneducated laborers. Like many black families here, generations became stuck in a brutal cycle of poverty and are more susceptible to radicalism (gangs, terrorism, etc.).

Compare that to US Muslims where the average one, immigrated or home born, is highly educated and upper-middle class, and you can see why comparing Muslims worldwide is an exercise in futility. Like any other thing in life, it's a number of factors you need to look at before generalizing. Each person is their own person with their own back story and needs to be judged so accordingly.

Here's the problem.

Islam is not self policing. These days, Christianity is. Fundamentalist Christians are complete pariahs in the entire western world. Most Christians are moderate, and they are vocal to the point of cacophony in opposition to the Eric Rudolph enclave.

Contrast this with Islam at large. Mainstream Muslims speak up, but they do not speak out, or seriously challenge the radicals. They are full of caveats. "This is horrible. This is not Islam. BUT... the West is Islamophobic, the West is waging a war on Islam. Oh and by the way, Death To Israel." The supposed mouthpiece for what is supposed to be moderate Islam in America; CAIR, is a material supporter of Islamic violence in Israel.

The moderate Muslims need to take a chapter from the moderate Christians and start marginalizing these murder monkeys or else the predominately Muslim countries are going to remain global pariahs from the western standpoint, and the vicious circle will continue. This is not a cycle the Muslim world can win.


Sent from the center of the universe.

That's not the problem - the problem is people subscribing to the cosmology of ancient goat-herders. How embarrassing...

[AZGrizFan]

Says the guy who can't seem to get Houndawg's nuts out of his mouth.

Pathetic retort from Captain Canvas Flaps.

Irony. I get it.

[expandspanos]

Plus didn't we just recently have a couple of Muslims who had become citizens try to blow up a bunch of people at the Boston Marathon? How about the guy who shot a bunch of military people Fort Hood Texas while shouting Islamic slogans?

Um, first off- where is the surveillance camera footage showing the following:

A. the Boston "suspect" (remember innocent until proven guilty?) brothers placing their bombs down on the street - (Video evidence we were told existed, but they now won't show it to the public.)

B. Where is the surveillance video from Ft. Hood proving the rumors that it was in fact the angry Muslim guy who did what he allegedly did? It's a military base afterall, should have plenty of cameras.

C. Speaking of Muslims being blamed for events that somehow never end up with surveillance footage- Where is the video proving Muslims flew Boeing jetliners at ground level in to the bottom floor of the Pentagon- the Pentagon has at least 80 cameras surrounding it, but none of them seem to show an airplane.. Not to mention the ground-effect forces would make it impossible to fly that low, that fast.

D. Where is the video or photo evidence proving an airplane crashed in Shanksville? I haven't seen any.

------------------

You talk about the Boston Bombing- as if we already know who did it 100%- an event where there were Craft contractors and shady characters hanging around with backpacks all over the place, a number of very sketchy people were identified as potential suspects, then the FBI et al came out and said "We've got the guys, it's these Muslims, case closed!

The reason they told us we know 100% these men did the bombings was they had video of them placing down their back-packs.. Which we were told we would "see soon."

But, what about the Tweets sent out by the Boston Globe saying there would be a controlled explosion across the street from the Library in the next few minutes? Across the street from the library was of course where one of the bombs went off..

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luyvA6BbdEo[/youtube]

So, there were bomb-sniffing dogs, the public was told they were having a bomb drill, and then the Boston Globe tweets: "There will be a controlled explosion opposite the library, within one minute as part of bomb squad activities"

Too "coincidental".

Then, you have the case of Bruce Mendelsohn, who is introduced to the public as a "military hero" or "works at MIT" and it turns out his job is actually in crisis communications, public relations and he has close ties to the media.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClAv8ObEOVA[/youtube]

This man claims he was "blown out of a couch" very far away from the puff-ball explosion, when there isn't even enough force to knock people standing right next to it out of the way..

Then, you find out Tyler Dodd lied about his military service, and having a Purple Heart, and he actually did nothing, and he's being held up as a hero of Boston- what exactly the fuck is going on here?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AK9jDi5oig[/youtube]
-----

Also, even the official version of the next "massacres" doesn't add up- You seem to have selective memory about recent events.. clouded by your hatred for Muslims.

Was it Muslims who allegedly shot up a movie theater in Aurora?

Was it Muslims who allegedly shot up the Gabrielle Giffords event in front of the Safeway?

Was it Muslims who shot up Columbine?

Was it Muslims who blew up OKC?

You have selective memory.

[LeadBolt]

Here's a link to a Wall Street journal article on this subject:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... %3Darticle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I wonder what would happen if Muslim leaders like Julie Siddiqi started a public and persistent campaign to discredit these Islamist advocates of mayhem and murder. Not just uttering the usual laments after another horrifying attack, but making a constant, high-profile effort to show the world that the preachers of hate are illegitimate. After the next zealot has killed the next victim of political Islam, claims about the "religion of peace" would ring truer."

And an interesting quote from the WSJ blog on the article:

"On February 4th, 2013, Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, addressed the Duma, (Russian Parliament), and gave a speech about the tensions with minorities in Russia:

"In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer Sharia Law, then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'. We had better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of most minorities. When this honorable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the national interest first, observing that the minorities are not Russians."

[LeadBolt]

Dipshits like you are the reason people laugh at religion.

Meahwhile, buddhists are killing muslims in Myanmar. Google image search buddhists killing muslims and you'll see some truly **** up things.

According to Reuters,potential reasons as to why Buddhists might be killing Muslims who are illegal immigrants in Myanmar:

"In March at least 44 people, most of them Muslims, died in the central city of Meikhtila after a rampage by Buddhist mobs incensed by the killing of a monk by Muslims, shortly after a violent row between a Buddhist couple and Muslim shop owners.

No one was reported killed in Tuesday's unrest in Lashio, which was sparked by a similar incident.

Aung Lwin, a Muslim man from a village near Lashio, said the trouble appeared to have begun after a quarrel between a Muslim man and a Buddhist woman who sold petrol. Several residents said the man doused the woman in fuel and set her on fire."

It is hard to see why those of the Islamic religion of peace are subjected to violence.