The Ukraine Crisis

[UNI88]

We’ve spent less than 10% of our annual defense budget to wipe out a huge chunk of their military without any of our troops on the ground.

FY 2023 defense budget: 773 billion
100 billion to Ukraine

Less than 10% of the Defense Budget if you're using some strange Palouse math.

So 13%? 10% if you round to the 0.

Russia has been exposed as a paper tiger.

[kalm]

Take it up with National Review.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/a ... se-budget/

Take it up with defense.gov (sorry I pulled a Chiz and forgot to post the link in prior post).
https://www.defense.gov/Spotlights/FY20 ... se-Budget/

The Nat Review article was before the big Omnibus that gave Ukraine another 40 something billion, making it 100 billion within 1 year. The Russian/Ukraine War doesn't line up with our fiscal year, so the 100 billion has occurred over 2 fiscal years, but that doesn't matter. Bottom line 100 billion to Ukraine in less than 1 year (was approved over about a 10 month period), compared to a FY 2023 773 billion defense budget = about 13% of 1 year of current defense budget.

So 13% of our annual budget to neuter Russia. Still a good deal.

[SeattleGriz]

Uh huh.

The US told Moscow in advance that President Joe Biden was planning to visit Kiev, National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan said on Monday. The American leader had previously stated he would visit Poland, but not Ukraine.

“We did notify the Russians that President Biden would be traveling to Kiev,” Sullivan said, adding that the message was sent “hours before” Biden departed Washington and was provided “for deconfliction purposes.” Sullivan did not indicate how Russian officials were contacted, or how they responded to the information.

Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who is deputy chairman of the Security Council, confirmed via his Telegram channel that Biden had received “safety guarantees” from Moscow for his visit. In the same post, Medvedev called Washington’s aid to Kiev a way for “NATO countries’ military industries to profit,” and referred to the US president as an “old man from across the ocean.”

[bobbythekidd]

They've been fighting in those eastern provinces for the past decade or so, just without flying their flag until they invaded formally last year. The places they're holding on to now have basically been ethnically cleansed - Ukrainians have been pushed out, killed, or sent to concentration camps in Russia - they aren't coming back.

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered until now.
1. The Russians move out all the pro Ukraine peoples in the eastern regions leaving only pro Russia civilians in place
2. When Ukrainian forces try to reoccupy, they are fighting for people who don't want to be liberated.
3. The Ukrainians are fighting in enemy territory despite being inside their own borders
4. The risks and rewards are not on par and Russia has some leverage to just ask for that territory and the war is over.

I gotta admit, that is a clever way of forcing talks to gain buffer territory. Sure the Russians had to do a bunch of war crimeing to make it happen, but it's still clever.

[kalm]

They've been fighting in those eastern provinces for the past decade or so, just without flying their flag until they invaded formally last year. The places they're holding on to now have basically been ethnically cleansed - Ukrainians have been pushed out, killed, or sent to concentration camps in Russia - they aren't coming back.

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered until now.
1. The Russians move out all the pro Ukraine peoples in the eastern regions leaving only pro Russia civilians in place
2. When Ukrainian forces try to reoccupy, they are fighting for people who don't want to be liberated.
3. The Ukrainians are fighting in enemy territory despite being inside their own borders
4. The risks and rewards are not on par and Russia has some leverage to just ask for that territory and the war is over.

I gotta admit, that is a clever way of forcing talks to gain buffer territory. Sure the Russians had to do a bunch of war crimeing to make it happen, but it's still clever.

According to my buddy who escaped Kharkiv 1 week in, only about a 1/3 of that area was pro-Russian at the time. That would be a quick turn around and leave some gaps with essential service workers.

[HI54UNI]

Local radio station is in contact with an Iowan that lives in Ukraine and is a farmer there. They usually talk to him 1-2 times a week. Interesting to hear his take on what is going on. In the last one I caught he was talking about how he just finished his harvest and how a lot of farmers are struggling. Many have already had foreclosure on their farms. The Ukraine government is not doing anything to stop these foreclosures. I find this interesting and wonder, who is ending up with these farms? Who will profit on owning/reselling that land at whatever point this is over?

[bobbythekidd]

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered until now.
1. The Russians move out all the pro Ukraine peoples in the eastern regions leaving only pro Russia civilians in place
2. When Ukrainian forces try to reoccupy, they are fighting for people who don't want to be liberated.
3. The Ukrainians are fighting in enemy territory despite being inside their own borders
4. The risks and rewards are not on par and Russia has some leverage to just ask for that territory and the war is over.

I gotta admit, that is a clever way of forcing talks to gain buffer territory. Sure the Russians had to do a bunch of war crimeing to make it happen, but it's still clever.

According to my buddy who escaped Kharkiv 1 week in, only about a 1/3 of that area was pro-Russian at the time. That would be a quick turn around and leave some gaps with essential service workers.

Yes. See point number 1

[Skjellyfetti]

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered until now.
1. The Russians move out all the pro Ukraine peoples in the eastern regions leaving only pro Russia civilians in place
2. When Ukrainian forces try to reoccupy, they are fighting for people who don't want to be liberated.
3. The Ukrainians are fighting in enemy territory despite being inside their own borders
4. The risks and rewards are not on par and Russia has some leverage to just ask for that territory and the war is over.

I gotta admit, that is a clever way of forcing talks to gain buffer territory. Sure the Russians had to do a bunch of war crimeing to make it happen, but it's still clever.

If you think that's clever, consider why the breadbasket of Ukraine is so full of Russian speakers to begin with.

Spoiler: show

Soviets starved out millions of Ukrainians and resettled Russians to replace them.

[UNI88]

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered until now.
1. The Russians move out all the pro Ukraine peoples in the eastern regions leaving only pro Russia civilians in place
2. When Ukrainian forces try to reoccupy, they are fighting for people who don't want to be liberated.
3. The Ukrainians are fighting in enemy territory despite being inside their own borders
4. The risks and rewards are not on par and Russia has some leverage to just ask for that territory and the war is over.

I gotta admit, that is a clever way of forcing talks to gain buffer territory. Sure the Russians had to do a bunch of war crimeing to make it happen, but it's still clever.

If you think that's clever, consider why the breadbasket of Ukraine is so full of Russian speakers to begin with.

Spoiler: show

Soviets starved out millions of Ukrainians and resettled Russians to replace them.

The Holodomor.

[SeattleGriz]

Local radio station is in contact with an Iowan that lives in Ukraine and is a farmer there. They usually talk to him 1-2 times a week. Interesting to hear his take on what is going on. In the last one I caught he was talking about how he just finished his harvest and how a lot of farmers are struggling. Many have already had foreclosure on their farms. The Ukraine government is not doing anything to stop these foreclosures. I find this interesting and wonder, who is ending up with these farms? Who will profit on owning/reselling that land at whatever point this is over?

Ukraine accepted an IMF loan and part of the agreement was that the land could purchased by others. At this point it's only 100 hectares, but after Jan 2024, it opens up to 10,000 hectares. Although no outside groups are supposed to be allowed to purchase land, you can bet outside money is going to be gobbling that up and the average Ukrainian screwed over.

Sounds like a great deal and hey, they only required Ukraine to do this because they care about the little guy.

As a condition for a US$8 billion loan package from the International Monetary Fund, Ukraine was forced to lift a 19-year moratorium on the sale of agricultural land in April 2020.

Amidst an ongoing economic crisis, the COVID-19 pandemic prevented street protests against the lifting of the. moratorium by Ukrainians who are overwhelmingly opposed to the law.

Opening the sale of land will benefit Western agribusiness interests and oligarchs who will now further consolidate ownership of land and intensify large scale, industrial agriculture in “Europe’s Breadbasket,” at the expense of Ukrainian farmers.

While conditionalities accompanying Western foreign assistance are common practice, the way Ukraine has been forced to put its land for sale has no precedent in modern history.

Oakland, CA/Kiev, Ukraine — On April 28, 2020, President Volodymyr Zelensky signed a bill into law authorizing the sale of farmland in Ukraine, lifting a moratorium that has been in place since 2001. This bill is part of a series of policy reforms that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) conditioned a US$8 billion loan package upon. Faced with a serious economic crisis, an ongoing civil war, and the rapidly escalating COVID-19 pandemic, Ukraine risked plunging into default without the package.

Lifting the moratorium had been a key demand of International Financial Institutions since the 2014 Euromaidan movement and the resulting Association Agreement signed with the European Union. Known as the “bread basket of Europe” for its rich, black soil, Ukraine has 32 million hectares of fertile land — equivalent to one-third of all arable land in the European Union—and is the world’s leading exporter of sunflower oil and seventh-largest exporter of wheat.

“The goal is clearly to favor the interests of private investors and Western agribusinesses. International Financial Institutions have a long history of conditioning their aid to reforms and structural adjustments in order to force the privatization and liberalization of economies around the world. However, the manner by which the IMF has leveraged Ukraine’s economic predicament to force the country to make its land available for sale has no precedent in modern history,” said Frederic Mousseau, Policy Director of the Oakland Institute.

The new law will create a land market in several stages. Starting in July 2021, individual Ukrainian citizens will be able to purchase up to 100 hectares. The second stage begins in January 2024 and will raise the limit to 10,000 hectares and permit sales to legal entities.

[GannonFan]

Negotiate what? Be a puppet state for Russia? It doesn't seem that Ukraine is anxious to be subordinate to Russia. Seems like they like being a sovereign nation.

Negotiate that Ukraine will stay neutral. Not allow the West to place offensive weapons close to the Russian border.

Do you not see all the "empire building" is to protect their country?

No one is attacking Russia. NATO has never been an offensive threat to Russia and never will be. Ukraine wasn't on the verge of invading Russia when Russia actually did invade Ukraine. The idea that Russia needs "buffer" states, and needs to control these states in every way, would be asinine if it also didn't involve real people living and dying for this nebulous concept.

[BDKJMU]

Part of Biden’s staged photo op with Zalensky.

What a strong and fearless leader.

Is that a big red dot for Joe to stand on in the bottom tweet? Holy shit.

Biden stepping on the red dot must have been the que for ‘Start the air raid sirens!”

Just wait till the 2024 campaign. He’ll be saying ‘I was in Kiev while it was under a Russian missile attack, with the air raid sirens going off. Seriously. Not a joke.’

[UNI88]

What a strong and fearless leader.

Is that a big red dot for Joe to stand on in the bottom tweet? Holy shit.

Biden stepping on the red dot must have been the que for ‘Start the air raid sirens!”

Just wait till the 2024 campaign. He’ll be saying ‘I was in Kiev while it was under a Russian missile attack, with the air raid sirens going off. Seriously. Not a joke.’

Was it a bone spurs moment or a soldiers who died serving their country are losers moment?

[BDKJMU]

Biden stepping on the red dot must have been the que for ‘Start the air raid sirens!”

Just wait till the 2024 campaign. He’ll be saying ‘I was in Kiev while it was under a Russian missile attack, with the air raid sirens going off. Seriously. Not a joke.’

Was it a bone spurs moment or a soldiers who died serving their country are losers moment?

Are you talking about the 5 draft deferments Biden got during Nam?

[UNI88]

Was it a bone spurs moment or a soldiers who died serving their country are losers moment?

Are you talking about the 5 draft deferments Biden got during Nam?

That would be Biden's bone spurs moment so Kiev could be his soldiers who died are losers moment.

[BDKJMU]

Are you talking about the 5 draft deferments Biden got during Nam?

That would be Biden's bone spurs moment so Kiev could be his soldiers who died are losers moment.

Are you talking about the Fake New claim that Trump called dead soldiers losers moment?

[GannonFan]

That would be Biden's bone spurs moment so Kiev could be his soldiers who died are losers moment.

Are you talking about the Fake New claim that Trump called dead soldiers losers moment?

I think he called POW's that.

[UNI88]

Are you talking about the Fake New claim that Trump called dead soldiers losers moment?

I think he called POW's that.

That's it, specifically John McCain in 2015.

To BDK, any criticism of trump has to be 100% accurate or it's invalid while any criticism of a Democrat just has to hit the red side of the barn to count.

[BDKJMU]

I think he called POW's that.

That's it, specifically John McCain in 2015.

To BDK, any criticism of trump has to be 100% accurate or it's invalid while any criticism of a Democrat just has to hit the red side of the barn to count.

In your earlier post you said ‘soldiers’ which meams you weren’ referring to McCain. You were referring to the ‘Trump called dead soldiers losers at a cemetary in France in 2018’ story from the Atlantic that they broke in Sept 2020. Anytime someone claims ‘Trump called dead American soldiers losers (which you’ve done a couple times since then) it orginates with the Atlantic story, which was talked about on here in Sept 2020.

4 signs the Atlantic story is Fake News:
1. A 2 year old allegation 2 months before an election. The "October Surprise" or in this case the Sept Surprise.
2. Anonymous sources.
3. Owner of the Atlantic has given 600k to the Biden campaign.
4. Minutes after the story was posted on the Atlantic website, the Biden campaign released a campaign ad parroting the Atlantic story claims.

https://www.championshipsubdivision.com ... 6#p1332336
And it was mentioned on other posts on that thread:
5.MULTIPLE NAMED people who were actually with Trump on the trip said it never happened.

[UNI88]

That's it, specifically John McCain in 2015.

To BDK, any criticism of trump has to be 100% accurate or it's invalid while any criticism of a Democrat just has to hit the red side of the barn to count.

In your earlier post you said ‘soldiers’ which meams you weren’ referring to McCain. You were referring to the ‘Trump called dead soldiers losers at a cemetary in France in 2018’ story from the Atlantic that they broke in Sept 2020. Anytime someone claims ‘Trump called dead American soldiers losers (which you’ve done a couple times since then) it orginates with the Atlantic story, which was talked about on here in Sept 2020.

4 signs the Atlantic story is Fake News:
1. A 2 year old allegation 2 months before an election. The "October Surprise" or in this case the Sept Surprise.
2. Anonymous sources.
3. Owner of the Atlantic has given 600k to the Biden campaign.
4. Minutes after the story was posted on the Atlantic website, the Biden campaign released a campaign ad parroting the Atlantic story claims.

https://www.championshipsubdivision.com ... 6#p1332336
And it was mentioned on other posts on that thread:
5.MULTIPLE NAMED people who were actually with Trump on the trip said it never happened.

How do you know what I meant by the term 'soldiers'? Can you read my mind? I used soldier in the generic sense and while it wasn't the term I wanted it was what I came up with in the moment and wasn't going to take a bunch of time trying to find a better word. Don't like it switch it out and use POW, veteran, etc.

You dismiss any criticism of trump and other MAGAts that isn't 100% on point while being a whole lot more freewheeling with criticism of Biden and Democrats. Be consistent.

trump, a coward who avoided serving doesn't respect veterans, especially those that were captured or killed.

[BDKJMU]

In your earlier post you said ‘soldiers’ which meams you weren’ referring to McCain. You were referring to the ‘Trump called dead soldiers losers at a cemetary in France in 2018’ story from the Atlantic that they broke in Sept 2020. Anytime someone claims ‘Trump called dead American soldiers losers (which you’ve done a couple times since then) it orginates with the Atlantic story, which was talked about on here in Sept 2020.

https://www.championshipsubdivision.com ... 6#p1332336
And it was mentioned on other posts on that thread:
5.MULTIPLE NAMED people who were actually with Trump on the trip said it never happened.

How do you know what I meant by the term 'soldiers'? Can you read my mind? I used soldier in the generic sense and while it wasn't the term I wanted it was what I came up with in the moment and wasn't going to take a bunch of time trying to find a better word. Don't like it switch it out and use POW, veteran, etc.

Because you said

soldiers who died serving their country are losers moment?

No I can’t read your mind. And since I can’t read your mind I’m going to take you meant what you said, “soldiers who died serving their country” which is totally different from POW.

And the ‘soldiers who died serving their country are losers’ allegation against Trump came from the certainly questionable & disputed Atlantic piece. Its not from anywhere else.

‘Trump said (US) solders who died serving their country are losers.’
‘Trump referred to neo-Nazis as fine people’.
etc..
Like Goebbels said (he wasn’t the first): If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.

[UNI88]

How do you know what I meant by the term 'soldiers'? Can you read my mind? I used soldier in the generic sense and while it wasn't the term I wanted it was what I came up with in the moment and wasn't going to take a bunch of time trying to find a better word. Don't like it switch it out and use POW, veteran, etc.

Because you said

soldiers who died serving their country are losers moment?

No I can’t read your mind. And since I can’t read your mind I’m going to take you meant what you said, “soldiers who died serving their country” which is totally different from POW.

And the ‘soldiers who died serving their country are losers’ allegation against Trump came from the certainly questionable & disputed Atlantic piece. Its not from anywhere else.

‘Trump said (US) solders who died serving their country are losers.’
‘Trump referred to neo-Nazis as fine people’.
etc..
Like Goebbels said (he wasn’t the first): If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.

Sorry, I triggered you. I'll try to be more aware of your fragile sensitivity to criticism of trump.

Back to what I meant to say, if Biden's draft deferments were his bone spurs moment, was Kiev his POWs are losers moment?

Regarding the Goebbels statement, is that why trump keeps spewing his election was stolen lies? So people will believe it? Has he come to believe it himself? My apologies if you find those questions overwhelming and need a safe space. I can see about sending you a fuzzy blanket and teddy bear if it will help.

[houndawg]

Negotiate what? Be a puppet state for Russia? It doesn't seem that Ukraine is anxious to be subordinate to Russia. Seems like they like being a sovereign nation.

Negotiate that Ukraine will stay neutral. Not allow the West to place offensive weapons close to the Russian border.

Do you not see all the "empire building" is to protect their country?

That was done when Ukraine surrenderd their nukes, quite some time ago. Russia reneged. Now they're going to pay for Putin's blunder.

[houndawg]

I just don't see them leaving Ukraine in its entirety. They're still sitting on Crimea and that's been 8 years now. They've been fighting in those eastern provinces for the past decade or so, just without flying their flag until they invaded formally last year. The places they're holding on to now have basically been ethnically cleansed - Ukrainians have been pushed out, killed, or sent to concentration camps in Russia - they aren't coming back. To get them out of Ukraine you're going to have to push them out of these areas, and I just don't see all of what was Ukraine being freed in that way in a reasonable time. It's a shame Ukraine wasn't part of NATO before this because Russia clearly wouldn't have invaded - they're simply not capable of fighting a conventional war against a major power.But we'll see, I doubt the Russian people rise up and do something about this - they've been beaten down for so long they just don't have it in them.

Russia is proving it is NATO that is not ready. Russia's been fighting a war of attrition on Ukraine. The US and the UK are low on inventory. Russia has exposed them with industrial warfare.

Dude, war is the largest revenue stream of the largest economy on the planet and bidniz is only gettin' better, and at the expense of Russia's dwindling market share . Meanwhile Russia has to buy back artillery rounds, at a steep premium, that it sold to North Korea years ago; and has to put them in the hands of convicts with nothing to lose. The collapse of the Soviet Union is history to you but those of us that remember it are getting some strong deja vu right now. Putin and Prigozhin are like Two Trains Runnin'..

[houndawg]

Take it up with defense.gov (sorry I pulled a Chiz and forgot to post the link in prior post).
https://www.defense.gov/Spotlights/FY20 ... se-Budget/

The Nat Review article was before the big Omnibus that gave Ukraine another 40 something billion, making it 100 billion within 1 year. The Russian/Ukraine War doesn't line up with our fiscal year, so the 100 billion has occurred over 2 fiscal years, but that doesn't matter. Bottom line 100 billion to Ukraine in less than 1 year (was approved over about a 10 month period), compared to a FY 2023 773 billion defense budget = about 13% of 1 year of current defense budget.

So 13% of our annual budget to neuter Russia. Still a good deal.

Peanuts.

The Pentagon can't account for about $2 trillion, they won't even notice it