The Ukraine Crisis

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

Things may not be going well in Bakhmut…

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by BDKJMU »

Interesting. Sacrifice 50k prisoners. Most will die or be captured in these human wave attacks. Benefits you because prisoners you no longer have to spend $$ to keep in prison, and weaken the enemy at the same time while not sacricing your regular troops.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:35 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:38 pm

Did Fedir comply with Article 51 of the UN Charter?

After recognizing the independence of the LPR/DNR Russia all three could claim a right of collective self-defense in analog to Article 51 of the UN Charter.

Don't be upset Putin pulled the same move the US did when they bombed the shit out of Serbia to "protect" Kosovo.
If we're using your (and Putin's) logic, he doesn't have to because Putin, Russia, Donetsk and Luhansk did not comply with Article 51.

From the United Nations Charter:
Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
Donetsk and Luhansk were and are not members of the UN. They are only recognized by Russia, Syria, and North Korea.

What NATO (not just the US) did in Serbia to protect Kosovo was also illegal.
The NATO intervention was, the Commission concludes, illegal but legitimate. It was illegal because it did not receive approval from the UN Security Council but it was legitimate because all diplomatic avenues had been exhausted and there was no other way to s :( top the killings and atrocities in Kosovo. The Commission has however criticized the way the intervention was conducted in several aspects.
Diplomatic avenues were not exhausted over Donetsk and Luhansk. Killings and atrocities in Donetsk and Luhansk were no where near what was happening in Kosovo. It was hypocritical for Russia to use Kosovo as justification when it still hasn't recognized the country.
No. Terrible effort. :(

UN said there was no atrocity. You've been duped... again.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:13 pm
UNI88 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:35 pm
If we're using your (and Putin's) logic, he doesn't have to because Putin, Russia, Donetsk and Luhansk did not comply with Article 51.

From the United Nations Charter:

Donetsk and Luhansk were and are not members of the UN. They are only recognized by Russia, Syria, and North Korea.

What NATO (not just the US) did in Serbia to protect Kosovo was also illegal.

Diplomatic avenues were not exhausted over Donetsk and Luhansk. Killings and atrocities in Donetsk and Luhansk were no where near what was happening in Kosovo. It was hypocritical for Russia to use Kosovo as justification when it still hasn't recognized the country.
No. Terrible effort. :(

UN said there was no atrocity in Donetsk and Luhansk. I've been duped... again.
'
FYP or provide a linky to an official UN declaration that there were no atrocities in Kosovo.

What the Serbs did to Bosnian Muslims is well documented, it isn't a reach to believe that atrocities were committed against Kosovars.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by GannonFan »

SeattleGriz wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:48 am
UNI88 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:16 am

Putin is significantly more responsible for the Ukrainian and Russian casualties and that Ukraine will have been bombed/shelled back to the stone age than Biden. The Ukrainians were going to fight back regardless of their weaponry so I'm not sure how arming them is unscrupulous.

Putin and the Russians ignored international law to invade a sovereign nation and when sanctioned cut off gas to European nations. Biden is unscrupulous but he's not in Putin's class
That's quite the rewriting of history. Let me help you with the facts.

1) On Feb 21st, The Donetsk News Agency reported unprecedented artillery attacks on the Donbas republic by Ukrainian forces, which is backed up by the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine.
The OSCE Special Observer Mission at the ceasefire line in southeast-Ukraine reported of Monday, February 21 2022.

It was the worst day ever.

In Donetsk region, the SMM recorded 703 ceasefire violations, including 332 explosions. In the previous 24 hours, it recorded 579 ceasefire violations in the region.
In Luhansk region, the Mission recorded 1,224 ceasefire violations, including 1,149 explosions. In the previous 24 hours, it recorded 333 ceasefire violations in the region
2) Around 6 o'clock that night the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic had asked the president of Russia Vladimir Putin to recognize the republics as independent states.
On behalf of our people we ask you to recognize the DPR as an independent, democratic, social state under the rule of law," the DPR Head Denis Pushilin said.
"I ask you to recognise the sovereignty and independence of the Lugansk People's Republic", the LPR Head Leonid Pasechnik said.

They both asked to consider the possibility of signing an agreement of friendship and cooperation between Russia and the LPR, including the cooperation in the sphere of defence.
3) Putin then held a Security Council meeting and after that meeting, had a phone call with Scholz and Macron to inform them of the results.

4) During a speech that night, Putin said:
In this regard, I consider it necessary to take a long overdue decision and to immediately recognise the independence and sovereignty of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Lugansk People's Republic. I would like to ask the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation to support this decision and then ratify the Treaty of Friendship and Mutual Assistance with both republics. These two documents will be prepared and signed shortly.
5) After the speech Putin signed documents recognizing the independence of the Donetsk and Luhansk republics. The treaties of Friendship, Cooperation and Mutual Assistance included mutual defense agreements.

Russia was asked for help, as Ukraine was not following the agreed upon Minsk II agreements and had intensified their attacks, not to mention had 120,000 troops amassed in the area. Russia pulled the US going to protect Kosovo from Serbia move.
Of course, this also willfully ignores the fact that Russia already had a significant military presence in these Ukranian areas for several years in advance of the full-scale invasion they launched last year. Pretty sure that was a blatant violation of Minsk II as well.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:43 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:13 pm

No. Terrible effort. :(

UN said there was no atrocity in Donetsk and Luhansk. I've been duped... again.
'
FYP or provide a linky to an official UN declaration that there were no atrocities in Kosovo.

What the Serbs did to Bosnian Muslims is well documented, it isn't a reach to believe that atrocities were committed against Kosovars.
Here you go. UN court says no genocide. It is recognized that nasty fighting had occurred between Serbia, and at the time labelled a terrorist group, the KLA.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1530781.stm
A United Nations court has ruled that Serbian troops did not carry out genocide against ethnic Albanians during Slobodan Milosevic's campaign of aggression in Kosovo from 1998 to 1999.
So there you have it. Bill Clinton didn't get approval from Congress, didn't get approval from the UN and simply led the charge of NATO into a sovereign country it had no business being in and bombed the shit out of it. All to supposedly protect the Kosovars.

Putin did it better.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

GannonFan wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:46 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:48 am

That's quite the rewriting of history. Let me help you with the facts.

1) On Feb 21st, The Donetsk News Agency reported unprecedented artillery attacks on the Donbas republic by Ukrainian forces, which is backed up by the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine.



2) Around 6 o'clock that night the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic had asked the president of Russia Vladimir Putin to recognize the republics as independent states.



3) Putin then held a Security Council meeting and after that meeting, had a phone call with Scholz and Macron to inform them of the results.

4) During a speech that night, Putin said:



5) After the speech Putin signed documents recognizing the independence of the Donetsk and Luhansk republics. The treaties of Friendship, Cooperation and Mutual Assistance included mutual defense agreements.

Russia was asked for help, as Ukraine was not following the agreed upon Minsk II agreements and had intensified their attacks, not to mention had 120,000 troops amassed in the area. Russia pulled the US going to protect Kosovo from Serbia move.
Of course, this also willfully ignores the fact that Russia already had a significant military presence in these Ukranian areas for several years in advance of the full-scale invasion they launched last year. Pretty sure that was a blatant violation of Minsk II as well.
You mean the Minsk II agreement Angela Merkel referred to as simply to buy time to build up Ukraine so it could fight Russia? Meaning it was never about peace.

Also, Russia has not declared war and thus cannot use the majority of it's military. So your claim of "full scale invasion" is hyperbole.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by GannonFan »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:24 am
GannonFan wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:46 am

Of course, this also willfully ignores the fact that Russia already had a significant military presence in these Ukranian areas for several years in advance of the full-scale invasion they launched last year. Pretty sure that was a blatant violation of Minsk II as well.
You mean the Minsk II agreement Angela Merkel referred to as simply to buy time to build up Ukraine so it could fight Russia? Meaning it was never about peace.

Also, Russia has not declared war and thus cannot use the majority of it's military. So your claim of "full scale invasion" is hyperbole.
Of course it wasn't, Russia was never going to pull out of eastern Ukraine and for the past 8 years they didn't. They've been involved militarily in that area of Ukraine, in violation of international law, for basically the past decade.

And stop being silly, this is a full-scale invasion. The only thing the Russians aren't using are nukes. They're using everything else. This is the Russian military, it's fairly plodding by modern standards. So what looks like restraint to a biased and suspect observer like you is just the state of the Russian military today. The Russian strategy is lots of people to throw into the mix and hopefully overwhelming numbers will eventually win the day. It's just who they are.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:24 am
GannonFan wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:46 am

Of course, this also willfully ignores the fact that Russia already had a significant military presence in these Ukranian areas for several years in advance of the full-scale invasion they launched last year. Pretty sure that was a blatant violation of Minsk II as well.
You mean the Minsk II agreement Angela Merkel referred to as simply to buy time to build up Ukraine so it could fight Russia? Meaning it was never about peace.

Also, Russia has not declared war and thus cannot use the majority of it's military. So your claim of "full scale invasion" is hyperbole.
So Russian wars of aggression: 17

NATO: 1
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:14 am
UNI88 wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:43 pm
FYP or provide a linky to an official UN declaration that there were no atrocities in Kosovo.

What the Serbs did to Bosnian Muslims is well documented, it isn't a reach to believe that atrocities were committed against Kosovars.
Here you go. UN court says no genocide. It is recognized that nasty fighting had occurred between Serbia, and at the time labelled a terrorist group, the KLA.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1530781.stm
A United Nations court has ruled that Serbian troops did not carry out genocide against ethnic Albanians during Slobodan Milosevic's campaign of aggression in Kosovo from 1998 to 1999.
So there you have it. Bill Clinton didn't get approval from Congress, didn't get approval from the UN and simply led the charge of NATO into a sovereign country it had no business being in and bombed the shit out of it. All to supposedly protect the Kosovars.

Putin did it better.
You're moving the goal post. You said no atrocities not no genocide. Tell me how the Drenica massacres either weren't atrocities or didn't happen.

Putin is a better war criminal than Clinton, no arguments there.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:24 am
GannonFan wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:46 am

Of course, this also willfully ignores the fact that Russia already had a significant military presence in these Ukranian areas for several years in advance of the full-scale invasion they launched last year. Pretty sure that was a blatant violation of Minsk II as well.
You mean the Minsk II agreement Angela Merkel referred to as simply to buy time to build up Ukraine so it could fight Russia? Meaning it was never about peace.

Also, Russia has not declared war and thus cannot use the majority of it's military. So your claim of "full scale invasion" is hyperbole.
..because Ukraine keeps kicking the shit out of them. And we're going to give them whatever they need to grind Russia's third-world excuse for a military into dust.... beautiful in its simplicity...
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:10 pm
Are they really trying to compare the American presence in Syria to the Russian presence in Ukraine?

How many US personnel are in Syria? 900 or so?

How many Russian personnel are in Ukraine? Hundreds of thousands?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:01 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:10 pm
Are they really trying to compare the American presence in Syria to the Russian presence in Ukraine?

How many US personnel are in Syria? 900 or so?

How many Russian personnel are in Ukraine? Hundreds of thousands?
The US military was never invited. They just went where they wanted in a sovereign nation and now control the oil fields. They estimate the US has stolen over $100B in oil from Syria. Do you know what they are doing to that country. To the innocent civilians?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:13 pm
UNI88 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:01 pm

Are they really trying to compare the American presence in Syria to the Russian presence in Ukraine?

How many US personnel are in Syria? 900 or so?

How many Russian personnel are in Ukraine? Hundreds of thousands?
The US military was never invited. They just went where they wanted in a sovereign nation and now control the oil fields. They estimate the US has stolen over $100B in oil from Syria. Do you know what they are doing to that country. To the innocent civilians?
900 soldiers have taken over and held the oil fields in Syria?

Syria started to boil over with the Arab Spring. It has and has had lots of competing interests: Assad, ISIS, the Kurds, Turkey, Russia, etc. I would guess that Russia is responsible for the deaths of more innocent civilians in Syria than the US.

With Russian assistance, Assad is and has been committing more atrocities against Syrians than Ukraine was against Ukrainians, ethnic Russian or not.

How much further can you stick your foot in your mouth with bad comparisons to try and justify an illegal invasion?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Winterborn »

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:40 pm
BDKJMU wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:24 pm
Take it up with defense.gov (sorry I pulled a Chiz and forgot to post the link in prior post).
https://www.defense.gov/Spotlights/FY20 ... se-Budget/

The Nat Review article was before the big Omnibus that gave Ukraine another 40 something billion, making it 100 billion within 1 year. The Russian/Ukraine War doesn't line up with our fiscal year, so the 100 billion has occurred over 2 fiscal years, but that doesn't matter. Bottom line 100 billion to Ukraine in less than 1 year (was approved over about a 10 month period), compared to a FY 2023 773 billion defense budget = about 13% of 1 year of current defense budget.
So 13% of our annual budget to neuter Russia. Still a good deal.
Better make it 50%, after all the ends justify the means. :coffee:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:31 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:13 pm

The US military was never invited. They just went where they wanted in a sovereign nation and now control the oil fields. They estimate the US has stolen over $100B in oil from Syria. Do you know what they are doing to that country. To the innocent civilians?
900 soldiers have taken over and held the oil fields in Syria?

Syria started to boil over with the Arab Spring. It has and has had lots of competing interests: Assad, ISIS, the Kurds, Turkey, Russia, etc. I would guess that Russia is responsible for the deaths of more innocent civilians in Syria than the US.

With Russian assistance, Assad is and has been committing more atrocities against Syrians than Ukraine was against Ukrainians, ethnic Russian or not.

How much further can you stick your foot in your mouth with bad comparisons to try and justify an illegal invasion?
You keep making these claims of atrocities, but you have no idea. Nobody outside that area knows.

What is the goal of the US troops? What do you expect to happen in Syria? Think they'll be this beacon of democracy once the put all the rubble back together and get the sanctions lifted?

I'm not justifying the Ukraine situation. I'm saying Russia did what America does, but did it better.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by GannonFan »

SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:33 am

I'm not justifying the Ukraine situation. I'm saying Russia did what America does, but did it better.
First of all you've been justifying the Ukraine situation for this entire thread over the past year or so so that first statement is as false of a lie as you can make. Second, you have never been able to show an example of the US invading a sovereign nation, against their will, and then seizing and holding onto the land as if it was their own. Also while simultaneously ethnically cleansing those areas by either killing or removing the current inhabitants and replacing them with inhabitants aligned with Russia and their goals of territorial conquest. Still waiting and apparently I'll be waiting for a long time. :coffee:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:01 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:33 am

I'm not justifying the Ukraine situation. I'm saying Russia did what America does, but did it better.
First of all you've been justifying the Ukraine situation for this entire thread over the past year or so so that first statement is as false of a lie as you can make. Second, you have never been able to show an example of the US invading a sovereign nation, against their will, and then seizing and holding onto the land as if it was their own. Also while simultaneously ethnically cleansing those areas by either killing or removing the current inhabitants and replacing them with inhabitants aligned with Russia and their goals of territorial conquest. Still waiting and apparently I'll be waiting for a long time. :coffee:
I’m with you on Ukraine and SeaGriz but technically, the US did all of these things to native Americans. We also have a long track record of manipulating other countries for resources at the expense of their citizenry. But we're kinder and gentler.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:10 am
GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:01 am

First of all you've been justifying the Ukraine situation for this entire thread over the past year or so so that first statement is as false of a lie as you can make. Second, you have never been able to show an example of the US invading a sovereign nation, against their will, and then seizing and holding onto the land as if it was their own. Also while simultaneously ethnically cleansing those areas by either killing or removing the current inhabitants and replacing them with inhabitants aligned with Russia and their goals of territorial conquest. Still waiting and apparently I'll be waiting for a long time. :coffee:
I’m with you on Ukraine and SeaGriz but technically, the US did all of these things to native Americans. We also have a long track record of manipulating other countries for resources at the expense of their citizenry. But we're kinder and gentler.
I was going to put in the clarifier of sometime in the past 100 years. Yes, we, and many other countries, did exactly what Russia is doing today. The difference is, we did those things 100-300 years ago, or further. The world has moved on, in this modern age nations don't play "the great game" anymore. Except for Russia, who still apparently believes this is 1917 or earlier.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:47 am
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:10 am

I’m with you on Ukraine and SeaGriz but technically, the US did all of these things to native Americans. We also have a long track record of manipulating other countries for resources at the expense of their citizenry. But we're kinder and gentler.
I was going to put in the clarifier of sometime in the past 100 years. Yes, we, and many other countries, did exactly what Russia is doing today. The difference is, we did those things 100-300 years ago, or further. The world has moved on, in this modern age nations don't play "the great game" anymore. Except for Russia, who still apparently believes this is 1917 or earlier.
If Putin is Tsar Vladimir, who is SG?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:01 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:33 am

I'm not justifying the Ukraine situation. I'm saying Russia did what America does, but did it better.
First of all you've been justifying the Ukraine situation for this entire thread over the past year or so so that first statement is as false of a lie as you can make. Second, you have never been able to show an example of the US invading a sovereign nation, against their will, and then seizing and holding onto the land as if it was their own. Also while simultaneously ethnically cleansing those areas by either killing or removing the current inhabitants and replacing them with inhabitants aligned with Russia and their goals of territorial conquest. Still waiting and apparently I'll be waiting for a long time. :coffee:
While he is full of shit as a xmas turkey, as is his custom, you gotta admit that the above is an accurate description of the founding of our own fair nation, including the ethnic cleansing - just a brief aside, now back to your regular programming..
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:46 am
GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:47 am

I was going to put in the clarifier of sometime in the past 100 years. Yes, we, and many other countries, did exactly what Russia is doing today. The difference is, we did those things 100-300 years ago, or further. The world has moved on, in this modern age nations don't play "the great game" anymore. Except for Russia, who still apparently believes this is 1917 or earlier.
If Putin is Tsar Vladimir, who is SG?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by GannonFan »

houndawg wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:05 pm
GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:01 am

First of all you've been justifying the Ukraine situation for this entire thread over the past year or so so that first statement is as false of a lie as you can make. Second, you have never been able to show an example of the US invading a sovereign nation, against their will, and then seizing and holding onto the land as if it was their own. Also while simultaneously ethnically cleansing those areas by either killing or removing the current inhabitants and replacing them with inhabitants aligned with Russia and their goals of territorial conquest. Still waiting and apparently I'll be waiting for a long time. :coffee:
While he is full of shit as a xmas turkey, as is his custom, you gotta admit that the above is an accurate description of the founding of our own fair nation, including the ethnic cleansing - just a brief aside, now back to your regular programming..
No doubt, that was the case with really most modern nations that exist today. But we've grown past that mentality in the last century, or at least we apparently had until Russia decided to turn back the clock. No one is ignoring American history, just trying to acknowledge that wars of conquest by the USA are a part of a distant past.
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