The Ukraine Crisis

[SDHornet]

Well normally I don't buy into the "conks do this" and "libs do that" bull shit but he has explained Obama (and liberals under his administration) playbook to a fucking "t" with his statement. There has been nothing but bobbing and weaving with every fucking scandal or debacle under this administration. Zero accountability, zero responsibility taken on anything. It has long gotten old.

And then people wonder why none of the global leaders take him seriously.

Cluck was just trolling...which is fine, and why it got a laugh out of me. There has to be a certain degree of truth involved in order for comedy to work. Cluck is a master at this.

However, if you read his post and were truly nodding along with it without recognizing the gross generalizations and fact that some partisan conks act exactly the same, then it's time to check yourself...

Don't get me wrong both sides are largely filled with idiots, but Jesus this administration is taking the cake.

[CID1990]

And if you truly think Obama is a liberal, you're about as smart as those who thought Bush or Reagan were conservative.

Obama is a liberal. He's just a weak, amateur one is all.

[houndawg]

He either doesn't know enough liberals or hasn't paid attention to his conk friends.

I'll be the first to admit the problematic nature of liberal nuance but if you truly think his post doesn't also apply to conservatives, you are either hyper partisan or lack skills of observation.

Well normally I don't buy into the "conks do this" and "libs do that" bull **** but he has explained Obama (and liberals under his administration) playbook to a **** "t" with his statement. There has been nothing but bobbing and weaving with every **** scandal or debacle under this administration. Zero accountability, zero responsibility taken on anything. It has long gotten old.

And then people wonder why none of the global leaders take him seriously.

Right out of the gate with a lie...

[houndawg]

Hmmmm....might have to start watching RT, and not just for the journalistic independence.

Where did they get her? I'm not as impressed with her looks, but she speaks as though she was trained in our Midwest, 'Merican accent/non-accent facilities. Then, after she says she really doesn't know much about Ukrainian history, she says she is against anything that will lead to a World War...............................well, duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

Still, good link...we need stuff like that to expose our "free press" as nothing but lap dogs for the wealthy.

You're about 40 years late, son.

[houndawg]

Yeah, US/Iraq is a good comparison to Russia/Ukraine After all, Ukraine's leader & current regime started an 8 year war with one of its neighbors, used WMDs on its own people, invaded & occupied another small neighbor, threatened to invade a 3rd neighbor, thereby taking over around 1/2 of the then known world oil reserves, has/is seeking WMDs, supported certain terrorist groups, and killed around around 600k of his own people over 24 years in power....

Maybe shouldn't have gone into Iraq 03', and definitely shouldn't get involved militarily with Ukraine/Russia, but to compare the US led invasion of Iraq in 03' to Russia's invasion of Ukraine is downright silly...

You forgot the part where the US supplied Saddam with weapons and intel while encouraging him to invade Iran, and then turning our backs while he used poison gas on his neighbor, and his own people, until we decided that he wasn't going along with our idea of how the world's oil market should be run for our benefit. And then there are the old related stories in the Middle East (and other parts of the world) about helping supply freedom fighters with arms, unless those freedom fighters happen to be fighting for freedom against one of our oil/mineral allies, in which case we send the arms supplies, and technical assistance (how to waterboard people, how to wrap wires around people's balls in order to get them to talk, and other helpful bits of assistance) to the ruthless unfreedom fighting governments that do our bidding. Of course, there is also the whole American settling of the West thing, but who's really comparing the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between how different nations interpret other nations not respecting another nation's sovereignty when it come to acting in their own self interests?

Right?

You're saying this kind of shit went on before January, 2009?

[ASUG8]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZJosrn7SPA[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRxbFcAGfvM[/youtube]

You can't make this shit up. Romney called it.

[grizzaholic]

What would brilliant SDHornet do in this situation?

You never state your opinion about anything ever. You just laugh at other people's opinions and call them dumb. Or quote someone else and say "This."

What is wrong with that? I don't state my opinions much, I laugh at most people here, I will call you out if you post something dumb, and I offer very little to most conversations.

[grizzaholic]

What would brilliant SDHornet do in this situation?

You never state your opinion about anything ever. You just laugh at other people's opinions and call them dumb. Or quote someone else and say "This."

What is wrong with that? I don't state my opinions much, I laugh at most people here, I will call you out if you post something dumb, and I offer very little to most conversations.

This↑

[Ibanez]

."Russia's Black Sea Fleet has told Ukrainian forces in Crimea to surrender by 5 a.m. on Tuesday or face a military assault, Interfax news agency quoted a source in the Ukrainian Defence Ministry as saying. The ultimatum, Interfax said, was issued by Alexander Vitko, the fleet's commander.

"If they do not surrender before 5 a.m. tomorrow, a real assault will be started against units and divisions of the armed forces across Crimea," the agency quoted the ministry source as saying.

According to the Kyiv Post, the ultimatum was broadcast from a Russian ship via a loudspeaker offshore, but "the words were muffled

"I think he said the Sherrif's near!"

I hope this gem didn't go un noticed.

[YoUDeeMan]

Cluck was just trolling...which is fine, and why it got a laugh out of me. There has to be a certain degree of truth involved in order for comedy to work. Cluck is a master at this.

Thank you.

However, I'm focusing on lifting the aura around Obushma right now...some folks needs to be edumacted about the wolf/sheep relationship that continues to exist in our government. People continue to respond to unpleasant truths about Obama with either, "Yeah, but Bush did it!" (as though Bush doing it justifies some stupid actions), or, "Yeah, but so what, he's OUR guy, so f*ck you!"

Seriously, some people have never left high school...or simply turned into to political Crips and Bloods. It must be hard wired into humans that they will support an idiot, as long as he is their idiot. Damned pack mentality.

It probably has something to do with most people's low level of self-esteem. Wives stay with abusive husbands because deep down inside they are scared to be alone and don't believe they deserve better (or they've met too many houndpuppies and have given up hope on finding any man that will satisfy them) and people keep electing poor representatives because they fear the next guy will be worse. That mentality is fascinating on so many levels, and you can see why egomaniacs like Charles Manson, Obama, the presidents of most HBCUs or on-line colleges can be so successful pandering to the lowest common denominator.

[kalm]

Cluck was just trolling...which is fine, and why it got a laugh out of me. There has to be a certain degree of truth involved in order for comedy to work. Cluck is a master at this.

Thank you.

However, I'm focusing on lifting the aura around Obushma right now...some folks needs to be edumacted about the wolf/sheep relationship that continues to exist in our government. People continue to respond to unpleasant truths about Obama with either, "Yeah, but Bush did it!" (as though Bush doing it justifies some stupid actions), or, "Yeah, but so what, he's OUR guy, so f*ck you!"

Seriously, some people have never left high school...or simply turned into to political Crips and Bloods. It must be hard wired into humans that they will support an idiot, as long as he is their idiot. Damned pack mentality.

It probably has something to do with most people's low level of self-esteem. Wives stay with abusive husbands because deep down inside they are scared to be alone and don't believe they deserve better (or they've met too many houndpuppies and have given up hope on finding any man that will satisfy them) and people keep electing poor representatives because they fear the next guy will be worse. That mentality is fascinating on so many levels, and you can see why egomaniacs like Charles Manson, Obama, the presidents of most HBCUs or on-line colleges can be so successful pandering to the lowest common denominator.

You can lay the blame for much of this at the feet of the two parties.

[kalm]

Then again perhaps this isn't some part of a grand strategy and Putin is winging it a bit.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ct/284227/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[YoUDeeMan]

Thank you.

However, I'm focusing on lifting the aura around Obushma right now...some folks needs to be edumacted about the wolf/sheep relationship that continues to exist in our government. People continue to respond to unpleasant truths about Obama with either, "Yeah, but Bush did it!" (as though Bush doing it justifies some stupid actions), or, "Yeah, but so what, he's OUR guy, so f*ck you!"

Seriously, some people have never left high school...or simply turned into to political Crips and Bloods. It must be hard wired into humans that they will support an idiot, as long as he is their idiot. Damned pack mentality.

It probably has something to do with most people's low level of self-esteem. Wives stay with abusive husbands because deep down inside they are scared to be alone and don't believe they deserve better (or they've met too many houndpuppies and have given up hope on finding any man that will satisfy them) and people keep electing poor representatives because they fear the next guy will be worse. That mentality is fascinating on so many levels, and you can see why egomaniacs like Charles Manson, Obama, the presidents of most HBCUs or on-line colleges can be so successful pandering to the lowest common denominator.

You can lay the blame for much of this at the feet of the two parties.

I prefer to lay the blame at the fools who follow the two party system. The system wouldn't exist if people took their heads out of their azzes, stopped watching crappy TV, and actually used their time to educate themselves about their environment, the world, and their local politics.

[Ibanez]

You can lay the blame for much of this at the feet of the two parties.

I prefer to lay the blame at the fools who follow the two party system. The system wouldn't exist if people took their heads out of their azzes, stopped watching crappy TV, and actually used their time to educate themselves about their environment, the world, and their local politics.

That sounds like a utopia. YOU ARE A LIBERAL! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[GannonFan]

Then again perhaps this isn't some part of a grand strategy and Putin is winging it a bit.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ct/284227/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I certainly agree with the sentiment in that piece. I know guys on these boards like Cappy almost worship at the Putin-altar, but he's got a bad poker hand in the Russia of today and there's little he can do about it. I think his master strategy was to get Ukraine's government chocked full of Russian sympathetic allies, which he did for a time, but that master plan blew up on him with the Maidera. So Crimea is his stab at salvaging anything from that failure. And unlike the Soviet era that he and Cappy love to reminisce about, today's Russia is fatally dependent on the west and just can't act on its own in a vacuum. Even if Putin was the most interesting man in the world, he's holding a hand with a pair of twos - it's not a hand you win with.

[BDKJMU]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZJosrn7SPA[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRxbFcAGfvM[/youtube]

You can't make this **** up. Romney called it.

Mind boggling that not only Obama thought Russia was our closest ally, but the majority of donks at the DNC convention thought so too, as evidenced by their laughing/clapping in agreement..

[ASUG8]

Then again perhaps this isn't some part of a grand strategy and Putin is winging it a bit.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ct/284227/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I certainly agree with the sentiment in that piece. I know guys on these boards like Cappy almost worship at the Putin-altar, but he's got a bad poker hand in the Russia of today and there's little he can do about it. I think his master strategy was to get Ukraine's government chocked full of Russian sympathetic allies, which he did for a time, but that master plan blew up on him with the Maidera. So Crimea is his stab at salvaging anything from that failure. And unlike the Soviet era that he and Cappy love to reminisce about, today's Russia is fatally dependent on the west and just can't act on its own in a vacuum. Even if Putin was the most interesting man in the world, he's holding a hand with a pair of twos - it's not a hand you win with.

I guess that depends on who you're playing and how effective your bluff is. Clearly Obama's Syrian red line has demonstrated a certain tell with this administration's ability to play or blink.

[YoUDeeMan]

Even if Putin was the most interesting man in the world, he's holding a hand with a pair of twos - it's not a hand you win with.

Putin is clearly playing against a man without a pair.
















































Thank you...don't forget to tip your waiters.

[GannonFan]

I certainly agree with the sentiment in that piece. I know guys on these boards like Cappy almost worship at the Putin-altar, but he's got a bad poker hand in the Russia of today and there's little he can do about it. I think his master strategy was to get Ukraine's government chocked full of Russian sympathetic allies, which he did for a time, but that master plan blew up on him with the Maidera. So Crimea is his stab at salvaging anything from that failure. And unlike the Soviet era that he and Cappy love to reminisce about, today's Russia is fatally dependent on the west and just can't act on its own in a vacuum. Even if Putin was the most interesting man in the world, he's holding a hand with a pair of twos - it's not a hand you win with.

I guess that depends on who you're playing and how effective your bluff is. Clearly Obama's Syrian red line has demonstrated a certain tell with this administration's ability to play or blink.

But where is Putin going with this? In one day he saw the Russian stock market take a massive nose dive as soon as Russian troops hit the ground. He backs off the rhetoric a little bit and his stance on Crimea and things calm down. He's not stupid, he can see that he risks economic disaster if he stays the course and now he just needs to find a way to step back while saving face. Again, Russia needs the West, they just do. They are dirt poor and buried if they don't and even Putin may not last long if they go back to the Soviet-era bread lines. I mean, Cappy would probably love to move there if they do, but most people won't.

[ASUG8]

I guess that depends on who you're playing and how effective your bluff is. Clearly Obama's Syrian red line has demonstrated a certain tell with this administration's ability to play or blink.

But where is Putin going with this? In one day he saw the Russian stock market take a massive nose dive as soon as Russian troops hit the ground. He backs off the rhetoric a little bit and his stance on Crimea and things calm down. He's not stupid, he can see that he risks economic disaster if he stays the course and now he just needs to find a way to step back while saving face. Again, Russia needs the West, they just do. They are dirt poor and buried if they don't and even Putin may not last long if they go back to the Soviet-era bread lines. I mean, Cappy would probably love to move there if they do, but most people won't.

I have no idea where Putin is going with this, nor do I have any idea what Obama/Kerry have concocted to try to negate it. Putin may be trying to reassemble some semblance of the former USSR although it seems he doesn't have the financial means to exact a prolonged series of invasions and occupations of neighboring countries. I do find it very hypocritical for us to threaten sanctions against the Russians given our history as world police.

[SDHornet]

Well normally I don't buy into the "conks do this" and "libs do that" bull **** but he has explained Obama (and liberals under his administration) playbook to a **** "t" with his statement. There has been nothing but bobbing and weaving with every **** scandal or debacle under this administration. Zero accountability, zero responsibility taken on anything. It has long gotten old.

And then people wonder why none of the global leaders take him seriously.

Right out of the gate with a lie...

Yeah cause I never called out any of the conk ridiculousness in the past.

[SDHornet]

But where is Putin going with this? In one day he saw the Russian stock market take a massive nose dive as soon as Russian troops hit the ground. He backs off the rhetoric a little bit and his stance on Crimea and things calm down. He's not stupid, he can see that he risks economic disaster if he stays the course and now he just needs to find a way to step back while saving face. Again, Russia needs the West, they just do. They are dirt poor and buried if they don't and even Putin may not last long if they go back to the Soviet-era bread lines. I mean, Cappy would probably love to move there if they do, but most people won't.

I have no idea where Putin is going with this, nor do I have any idea what Obama/Kerry have concocted to try to negate it. Putin may be trying to reassemble some semblance of the former USSR although it seems he doesn't have the financial means to exact a prolonged series of invasions and occupations of neighboring countries. I do find it very hypocritical for us to threaten sanctions against the Russians given our history as world police.

The thing now is how much more of Ukraine does Putin want, and when does he want to take it? There is nothing stopping him from doing so as the EU is hesitant to impose any sanctions for this recent aggression. Putin reaffirmed the lack of will of the EU (and the US) to do anything about it, and now knows that marching 16k troops (or whatever it actually was) into other areas of Ukraine will be met with zero resistance. Does he push it to 20k troops next time? Less?

As far as the Russian economic issue, I heard that so long as oil is at or below $90 a barrel Russia is losing money on its oil sales. Maybe the best way to combat this aggression would be to provide an influx of oil into the market as a response to Putin's power move.

[AZGrizFan]

Then again perhaps this isn't some part of a grand strategy and Putin is winging it a bit.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ct/284227/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I certainly agree with the sentiment in that piece. I know guys on these boards like Cappy almost worship at the Putin-altar, but he's got a bad poker hand in the Russia of today and there's little he can do about it. I think his master strategy was to get Ukraine's government chocked full of Russian sympathetic allies, which he did for a time, but that master plan blew up on him with the Maidera. So Crimea is his stab at salvaging anything from that failure. And unlike the Soviet era that he and Cappy love to reminisce about, today's Russia is fatally dependent on the west and just can't act on its own in a vacuum. Even if Putin was the most interesting man in the world, he's holding a hand with a pair of twos - it's not a hand you win with.

Which he's NOT, obviously.

I win that game with a 7-deuce offsuit.

[kalm]

I have no idea where Putin is going with this, nor do I have any idea what Obama/Kerry have concocted to try to negate it. Putin may be trying to reassemble some semblance of the former USSR although it seems he doesn't have the financial means to exact a prolonged series of invasions and occupations of neighboring countries. I do find it very hypocritical for us to threaten sanctions against the Russians given our history as world police.

The thing now is how much more of Ukraine does Putin want, and when does he want to take it? There is nothing stopping him from doing so as the EU is hesitant to impose any sanctions for this recent aggression. Putin reaffirmed the lack of will of the EU (and the US) to do anything about it, and now knows that marching 16k troops (or whatever it actually was) into other areas of Ukraine will be met with zero resistance. Does he push it to 20k troops next time? Less?

As far as the Russian economic issue, I heard that so long as oil is at or below $90 a barrel Russia is losing money on its oil sales. Maybe the best way to combat this aggression would be to provide an influx of oil into the market as a response to Putin's power move.

Europe is hesitant because they are invested in Russia. France has a current deal to sell warships to them.

But Ganny is right, Russia also needs the west. We know it, Putin knows we know it. Sanctions can be leveled at any time and they are a meaningful threat. Threats of military intervention are not.

[YoUDeeMan]

But where is Putin going with this? In one day he saw the Russian stock market take a massive nose dive as soon as Russian troops hit the ground. He backs off the rhetoric a little bit and his stance on Crimea and things calm down. He's not stupid, he can see that he risks economic disaster if he stays the course and now he just needs to find a way to step back while saving face. Again, Russia needs the West, they just do. They are dirt poor and buried if they don't and even Putin may not last long if they go back to the Soviet-era bread lines. I mean, Cappy would probably love to move there if they do, but most people won't.

The market?

The market will eventually get back to where is was no matter what Putin did.

As far as Putin backing off, Crimea will be Russian in one way or another, most likely effectively separated from Ukraine through a proxy government. No way Putin gives up control of that region anytime soon. I'll take side bets on that if anyone is interested. That port is too valuable for it to be under anyone else's influence.

And I would not be surprised if the two other Eastern sections also separate from the Ukraine.

In the long run, our reliance on economic sanctions will eventually backfire. China is watching, and they are growing their middle class for a reason...they have over 1B people, a market that dwarfs the US. In short time, they will be in a position to laugh at any sanctions we try to impose, their companies, and banks, will gladly step in when the US tries to pull the sanctions card on anyone.

There is a reason so many US companies are trying to get into China...despite obvious issues with piracy of every conceivable item. US growth is relatively flat, but there is a rainbow of money to be made (and lost) in China and the surrounding area. Business knows no boundaries.