The Ukraine Crisis

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

houndawg wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:36 am
Pwns wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:48 am But don't bring this concern up or you'll be accused of being a Kremlin mouthpiece.

Its a legit concern but the top priority right now is rubbing Putin's nose in his mess until he's too humiliated to be taken seriously by anybody as a Head of State , we can sort the other stuff later.
How exactly is Putin's face being rubbed into anything?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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still going to plan :lol:



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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:12 pm
houndawg wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:36 am
Its a legit concern but the top priority right now is rubbing Putin's nose in his mess until he's too humiliated to be taken seriously by anybody as a Head of State , we can sort the other stuff later.
How exactly is Putin's face being rubbed into anything?
His invasion of Ukraine has been an abject failure. He was expected to take the country in days or weeks and it's dragged on for months. Expectations have been scaled back and still aren't being met. The longer the war lasts the worse he looks.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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UNI88 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:43 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:12 pm

How exactly is Putin's face being rubbed into anything?
His invasion of Ukraine has been an abject failure. He was expected to take the country in days or weeks and it's dragged on for months. Expectations have been scaled back and still aren't being met. The longer the war lasts the worse he looks.
And where did you get this information? That's what I'm driving at. I keep hearing how stuff should have gone, but see no proof that was actually the plan. Sounds like narrative as opposed to actual knowledge. Not ragging on you, but all the so called experts in the media who put this stuff out there.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by GannonFan »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:43 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:12 pm

How exactly is Putin's face being rubbed into anything?
His invasion of Ukraine has been an abject failure. He was expected to take the country in days or weeks and it's dragged on for months. Expectations have been scaled back and still aren't being met. The longer the war lasts the worse he looks.
Far be it from me to come to SG's defense, especially on this topic where it appears SG could actually be either a Russian bot or a paid Russian internet influencer.

However, how are we calling what Russia is doing in the Ukraine as "abject failure"? There's no doubt that Russia's military has been shown to be not terribly effective - they have suffered tremendous casualties, they have shown egregious errors in tactics and strategy, and they have struggled against a vastly outgunned opponent. But at the end of the day, they have occupied pretty much all of the Donbas region. As it stands right now, those two puppet Russian governments they set up in those regions look like they're going to be around for awhile. Just like Crimea years ago, Russia looks like they were able to take Ukrainian territory and will likely still have it years from now. And who knows, in 8 years from now he could be back it again, looking to take another sliver of Ukrainian territory. I agree, it's horribly wasteful and tremendously inefficient, but this is Russia we're talking about, that's practically modus operandi for them. As for how he looks on the world's stage, he's still friends with the countries he was friends with before this - China, Iran, North Korea, and potentially African nations. But until there's real unrest inside Russia that coalesces into a real movement to unseat him, Putin hasn't lost a thing other than tens of thousands of soldiers he apparently didn't care that much about anyway. Dictators are like that. :coffee:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:45 am
UNI88 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:43 am
His invasion of Ukraine has been an abject failure. He was expected to take the country in days or weeks and it's dragged on for months. Expectations have been scaled back and still aren't being met. The longer the war lasts the worse he looks.
And where did you get this information? That's what I'm driving at. I keep hearing how stuff should have gone, but see no proof that was actually the plan. Sounds like narrative as opposed to actual knowledge. Not ragging on you, but all the so called experts in the media who put this stuff out there.
I got it from Marc Elias ... ;)

Those were the expectations that were reported when the invasion started. I trust my memory more than I trust some whack-a-doodle at Conservative Treehouse, OAN, HuffPo, Vox, etc. Are you going to question me if I say the sky is blue?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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UNI88 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:55 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:45 am

And where did you get this information? That's what I'm driving at. I keep hearing how stuff should have gone, but see no proof that was actually the plan. Sounds like narrative as opposed to actual knowledge. Not ragging on you, but all the so called experts in the media who put this stuff out there.
I got it from Marc Elias ... ;)

Those were the expectations that were reported when the invasion started. I trust my memory more than I trust some whack-a-doodle at Conservative Treehouse, OAN, HuffPo, Vox, etc. Are you going to question me if I say the sky is blue?
I trust those that don't make outlandish claims, have a track record of their claims coming true and understand the military. Western media doesn't fall in any of those categories.

Doug McGregor has been pretty solid in that role. He even admits he has no clue what Putin's plans were. Nobody but Putin and his top generals know.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:17 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:55 am
I got it from Marc Elias ... ;)

Those were the expectations that were reported when the invasion started. I trust my memory more than I trust some whack-a-doodle at Conservative Treehouse, OAN, HuffPo, Vox, etc. Are you going to question me if I say the sky is blue?
I trust those that don't make outlandish claims, have a track record of their claims coming true and understand the military. Western media doesn't fall in any of those categories.

Doug McGregor has been pretty solid in that role.
What were Putin's expectations? How does everything that has happened fit into his master plan?

Why did he waste time and resources "appearing" to be attempting to take Kiev when all he wanted was parts of eastern and southern Ukraine?

How is a long, drawn-out war that gives the west time to further arm Ukraine to Putin's advantage?

Are the stories of frustration and sinking morale among Russian troops false? Are the stories of the Russian generals that have been killed false?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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UNI88 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:23 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:17 pm

I trust those that don't make outlandish claims, have a track record of their claims coming true and understand the military. Western media doesn't fall in any of those categories.

Doug McGregor has been pretty solid in that role.
What were Putin's expectations? How does everything that has happened fit into his master plan?

Why did he waste time and resources "appearing" to be attempting to take Kiev when all he wanted was parts of eastern and southern Ukraine?

How is a long, drawn-out war that gives the west time to further arm Ukraine to Putin's advantage?

Are the stories of frustration and sinking morale among Russian troops false? Are the stories of the Russian generals that have been killed false?
Appearing to take Kiev seemed like a feint to freeze Ukrainian forces. I will say that what I have heard is Putin miscalculated in believing he could send forces in and the ethnic Russians were going to help. Apparently the ethnic Russians said that if Russia's forces weren't going to stay, there would be retribution on them, so they didn't help. That changed the war to what we see now. Ukrainians entrenched and Russia slowly advancing as the simply destroy their positions with artillery.

In regards to Ukraine gaining any sort of upper hand due to a long drawn out war, that has not happened and won't happen. Ukrainian forces have been decimated.

Yes, stories of frustration and dead generals are false. Russia is stomping Ukraine's ass.

Remember we have a hat bet!! I keep hearing Ukraine will be a rump state though and also hearing Russia is rotating troops and getting ready for a big offensive.

This guy's been pretty spot on and pretty much what I said.

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:38 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:23 pm

What were Putin's expectations? How does everything that has happened fit into his master plan?

Why did he waste time and resources "appearing" to be attempting to take Kiev when all he wanted was parts of eastern and southern Ukraine?

How is a long, drawn-out war that gives the west time to further arm Ukraine to Putin's advantage?

Are the stories of frustration and sinking morale among Russian troops false? Are the stories of the Russian generals that have been killed false?
Appearing to take Kiev seemed like a feint to freeze Ukrainian forces. I will say that what I have heard is Putin miscalculated in believing he could send forces in and the ethnic Russians were going to help. Apparently the ethnic Russians said that if Russia's forces weren't going to stay, there would be retribution on them, so they didn't help. That changed the war to what we see now. Ukrainians entrenched and Russia slowly advancing as the simply destroy their positions with artillery.

In regards to Ukraine gaining any sort of upper hand due to a long drawn out war, that has not happened and won't happen. Ukrainian forces have been decimated.

Yes, stories of frustration and dead generals are false. Russia is stomping Ukraine's ass.

Remember we have a hat bet!! I keep hearing Ukraine will be a rump state though and also hearing Russia is rotating troops and getting ready for a big offensive.

This guy's been pretty spot on and pretty much what I said.

I don't buy it. You think he's spot on because he's saying what you want to hear. Step out of the echo chamber and really listen. Russia might not be losing but they aren't stomping Ukraine's ass either. If they had been the war would be over already. The weaknesses of the Russian military have been exposed and the grind is wearing on both Ukraine and Russia. Russia might eventually grind Ukraine into a memory but it will take time and they'll pay dearly to do it.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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UNI88 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:50 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:38 pm

Appearing to take Kiev seemed like a feint to freeze Ukrainian forces. I will say that what I have heard is Putin miscalculated in believing he could send forces in and the ethnic Russians were going to help. Apparently the ethnic Russians said that if Russia's forces weren't going to stay, there would be retribution on them, so they didn't help. That changed the war to what we see now. Ukrainians entrenched and Russia slowly advancing as the simply destroy their positions with artillery.

In regards to Ukraine gaining any sort of upper hand due to a long drawn out war, that has not happened and won't happen. Ukrainian forces have been decimated.

Yes, stories of frustration and dead generals are false. Russia is stomping Ukraine's ass.

Remember we have a hat bet!! I keep hearing Ukraine will be a rump state though and also hearing Russia is rotating troops and getting ready for a big offensive.

This guy's been pretty spot on and pretty much what I said.

I don't buy it. You think he's spot on because he's saying what you want to hear. Step out of the echo chamber and really listen. Russia might not be losing but they aren't stomping Ukraine's ass either. If they had been the war would be over already. The weaknesses of the Russian military have been exposed and the grind is wearing on both Ukraine and Russia. Russia might eventually grind Ukraine into a memory but it will take time and they'll pay dearly to do it.
I would call Russia's ability to launch artillery from a greater distance than Ukraine, while staying out of harms way, a major ass kicking.

Can you list me all the effective offensive or counter offensives Ukraine has pulled off? There aren't any.

Russia stomping Ukraine hardly confirms my bias. If you remember, I thought we should have negotiated and prevented all these deaths.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:44 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:50 pm
I don't buy it. You think he's spot on because he's saying what you want to hear. Step out of the echo chamber and really listen. Russia might not be losing but they aren't stomping Ukraine's ass either. If they had been the war would be over already. The weaknesses of the Russian military have been exposed and the grind is wearing on both Ukraine and Russia. Russia might eventually grind Ukraine into a memory but it will take time and they'll pay dearly to do it.
I would call Russia's ability to launch artillery from a greater distance than Ukraine, while staying out of harms way, a major ass kicking.

Can you list me all the effective offensive or counter offensives Ukraine has pulled off? There aren't any.

Russia stomping Ukraine hardly confirms my bias. If you remember, I thought we should have negotiated and prevented all these deaths.
Has the advantage that Russia's artillery been eroded by new weaponry? Is artillery the only aspect of this war that matters? Does Ukraine have advantages in other areas (drones for example)? In this fight, Ukraine is Rocky and Russia is Ivan Drago. Ukraine has taken some wicked shots but they keep getting back up and Russia can't seem to finish them off. The longer they stick around the worse it is for Russia and Putin.

If Russia were "stomping Ukraine" they would be in Kiev by now. They aren't and they haven't lived up to expectations unless those expectations have been spun by Putin apologists.

There is truth to the argument that negotiating to save lives would have emboldened Putin and he would have invaded somewhere else sooner or later.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:44 pm I would call Russia's ability to launch artillery from a greater distance than Ukraine, while staying out of harms way, a major ass kicking.
That was true at the beginning of the war but, it is no longer true. A great example of how brilliant a move it was to lose the initiative with your Kyiv "feint." :lol:
SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:44 pmCan you list me all the effective offensive or counter offensives Ukraine has pulled off? There aren't any.
Kharkiv. They pushed Russia back across the border.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:12 pm
houndawg wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:36 am

Its a legit concern but the top priority right now is rubbing Putin's nose in his mess until he's too humiliated to be taken seriously by anybody as a Head of State , we can sort the other stuff later.
How exactly is Putin's face being rubbed into anything?
He's almost six months into his weekend jaunt to change regimes in Ukraine. His military has been exposed as little more than third-world but larger. We're going to take billions in weapons sales away from him.

We could bleed him for years if he could last that long. (He can't)
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:44 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:50 pm

I don't buy it. You think he's spot on because he's saying what you want to hear. Step out of the echo chamber and really listen. Russia might not be losing but they aren't stomping Ukraine's ass either. If they had been the war would be over already. The weaknesses of the Russian military have been exposed and the grind is wearing on both Ukraine and Russia. Russia might eventually grind Ukraine into a memory but it will take time and they'll pay dearly to do it.
I would call Russia's ability to launch artillery from a greater distance than Ukraine, while staying out of harms way, a major ass kicking.

Can you list me all the effective offensive or counter offensives Ukraine has pulled off? There aren't any.

Russia stomping Ukraine hardly confirms my bias. If you remember, I thought we should have negotiated and prevented all these deaths.
I would too if that were the status quo, but it ain't.

NATO's generals gotta be licking their chops over how short a time it would take NATO troops to kick the living shit out of the Russians.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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Hmmm...
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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houndawg wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:09 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:44 pm

I would call Russia's ability to launch artillery from a greater distance than Ukraine, while staying out of harms way, a major ass kicking.

Can you list me all the effective offensive or counter offensives Ukraine has pulled off? There aren't any.

Russia stomping Ukraine hardly confirms my bias. If you remember, I thought we should have negotiated and prevented all these deaths.
I would too if that were the status quo, but it ain't.

NATO's generals gotta be licking their chops over how short a time it would take NATO troops to kick the living shit out of the Russians.
:lol: NATO armed and trained Ukraine for eight years. Yeah, NATO's just itching to take on Russia.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

SeattleGriz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:58 am
houndawg wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:09 pm

I would too if that were the status quo, but it ain't.

NATO's generals gotta be licking their chops over how short a time it would take NATO troops to kick the living shit out of the Russians.
:lol: NATO armed and trained Ukraine for eight years. Yeah, NATO's just itching to take on Russia.
Let you reader finish the article before you hyper-ventilate - NATO isn't itching to take on Russia, but NATO's generals know now that if it comes to that NATO will make short work of the Russians. A few hours to take control of the skies and after that its just target practice
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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houndawg wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:13 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:58 am

:lol: NATO armed and trained Ukraine for eight years. Yeah, NATO's just itching to take on Russia.
Let you reader finish the article before you hyper-ventilate - NATO isn't itching to take on Russia, but NATO's generals know now that if it comes to that NATO will make short work of the Russians. A few hours to take control of the skies and after that its just target practice
:lol: :lol: :lol:

We couldn’t even “make short work” of the Taliban. :coffee:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Skjellyfetti »

So, this tweet has turned into a meme in Ukraine and Russia :lol:

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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Ouchy

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by BDKJMU »

Skjellyfetti wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:55 pm Ouchy

Actually 70k casualties for the Russians isn’t that high for 6 months. That’s less than 1 week of casualties for them in WWII..
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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BDKJMU wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:53 pm
Skjellyfetti wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:55 pm Ouchy

Actually 70k casualties for the Russians isn’t that high for 6 months. That’s less than 1 week of casualties for them in WWII..
It's still pretty high. In 1941 they were fighting for their very existence. Here in 2022, they're fighting to subjugate another sovereign nation and steal their land and resources, all the while stroking the ego of an aging dictator. 70k casualties for that self-inflicted power trip is a bit excessive. But I'm sure SG will be on here soon to give us the heavily edited Russian interpretation of this. :rofl:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:49 am
BDKJMU wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:53 pm
Actually 70k casualties for the Russians isn’t that high for 6 months. That’s less than 1 week of casualties for them in WWII..
It's still pretty high. In 1941 they were fighting for their very existence. Here in 2022, they're fighting to subjugate another sovereign nation and steal their land and resources, all the while stroking the ego of an aging dictator. 70k casualties for that self-inflicted power trip is a bit excessive. But I'm sure SG will be on here soon to give us the heavily edited Russian interpretation of this. :rofl:
11-12k killed and 15k - 20k wounded according to former Colonel Doug McGregor. He also says it's impossible to know, which surprisingly you never hear from western media.

He says it's Ukraine that has 60-70k dead.

We'll all see soon enough who's been suckered by their sources. NYT or former Colonel.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:01 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:49 am

It's still pretty high. In 1941 they were fighting for their very existence. Here in 2022, they're fighting to subjugate another sovereign nation and steal their land and resources, all the while stroking the ego of an aging dictator. 70k casualties for that self-inflicted power trip is a bit excessive. But I'm sure SG will be on here soon to give us the heavily edited Russian interpretation of this. :rofl:
11-12k killed and 15k - 20k wounded according to former Colonel Doug McGregor. He also says it's impossible to know, which surprisingly you never hear from western media.

He says it's Ukraine that has 60-70k dead.

We'll all see soon enough who's been suckered by their sources. NYT or former Colonel.
McGregor sounds like a neutral source.

:rofl:
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