The Ukraine Crisis

[Caribbean Hen]

I agree that the "long-term plan" is difficult at the moment. I think it hinges on a few things that we don't know. And, this is mostly just my speculation.

1. The US election in November. This is the most crucial one.

• Trump wins - I think it's game over for Ukraine.

• Biden wins and Democrats don't control the House - I think a NATO backed armistice line is a very likely possibility.

• Biden wins and Democrats control Congress - aid resumes for at least 2 years and Ukraine has another chance at a counteroffensive.

2. How much longer Putin lives. This is really a wild card. He may outlive Keith Richards for all we know. But, Putin has no heir apparent. He has been too paranoid to give anyone that status. When he dies - Russia is going to descend into chaos. It's really hard to imagine the next President of Russia coming to power in any way but a brutal power struggle. IMO this is going to be ugly when it happens and the logistics and coherence of the army is going to fall apart. Depending on how much Russia takes and digs in before this happens - Ukraine would have a chance to seize a lot of it back.

Nice Keith Richards reference

So why is Putin still alive? How many support him out of fear?

He doesn’t look like he’s dying from natural caused anytime soon but he has cerebral palsy according to word on the street

Hillary’s mafia could probably get it done

[SeattleGriz]

This has been great. Got the stooges sputtering because they can't answer basic questions.

At least half the world and all of Europe are “stooges” …he said while he plants his Russian flag on the wrong side of history.

You are a broken record. I plant my flag on the side of less deaths. As you have no skin in the game, nor have ever served, you plant yours on sending Ukrainian to their death. Your decision here is as uninformed as your medical fascism was on COVID.

Do us all a favor. Put down your stupid Twitter feed and actually educate yourself on the topics.

[UNI88]

At least half the world and all of Europe are “stooges” …he said while he plants his Russian flag on the wrong side of history.

You are a broken record. I plant my flag on the side of less deaths. As you have no skin in the game, nor have ever served, you plant yours on sending Ukrainian to their death. Your decision here is as uninformed as your medical fascism was on COVID.

Do us all a favor. Put down your stupid Twitter feed and actually educate yourself on the topics.

CH has a point but I think he and SG oversimplify things in their rush to suck up to trump through putin. They assume that:

• There will be peace if we stop sending aid to Ukraine. What if Ukraine refuses to accept any agreement that doesn't return their territory? What if russia sees the drop in aid as an opportunity to take more of Ukraine and pushes the invasion harder? Ending US aid does not automatically result in the end of hostilities and fewer lives lost. It could very well have the opposite effect.
• There will be peace and it will last. This is putin's 2nd invasion of Ukraine. We can't be sure that he won't use peace as an opportunity to rebuild his armed forces and prepare for a future invasion to take more or all of Ukraine. The "we'll hold him accountable if he does" argument rings hollow because he's already done it and they don't want to hold him accountable. Why should I believe they'll have the stomach to hold him accountable if he does it again?

If I'm Ukraine the only peace I would consider is one that includes NATO membership. Will putin agree to that?

Here's your chance to provide a real explanation (i.e. not some flippant MAQA yahoo echo chamber talking points) of how ending aid will result in less deaths.

[SeattleGriz]

You are a broken record. I plant my flag on the side of less deaths. As you have no skin in the game, nor have ever served, you plant yours on sending Ukrainian to their death. Your decision here is as uninformed as your medical fascism was on COVID.

Do us all a favor. Put down your stupid Twitter feed and actually educate yourself on the topics.

CH has a point but I think he and SG oversimplify things in their rush to suck up to trump through putin. They assume that:

• There will be peace if we stop sending aid to Ukraine. What if Ukraine refuses to accept any agreement that doesn't return their territory? What if russia sees the drop in aid as an opportunity to take more of Ukraine and pushes the invasion harder? Ending US aid does not automatically result in the end of hostilities and fewer lives lost. It could very well have the opposite effect.
• There will be peace and it will last. This is putin's 2nd invasion of Ukraine. We can't be sure that he won't use peace as an opportunity to rebuild his armed forces and prepare for a future invasion to take more or all of Ukraine. The "we'll hold him accountable if he does" argument rings hollow because he's already done it and they don't want to hold him accountable. Why should I believe they'll have the stomach to hold him accountable if he does it again?

Here's your chance to provide a real explanation (i.e. not some flippant MAQA yahoo echo chamber talking points) of how ending aid will result in less deaths.

Bro. I'm done replying to you.

You want answers to everything and then back down and provide none when it's your turn.

[UNI88]

Here's your chance to provide a real explanation (i.e. not some flippant MAQA yahoo echo chamber talking points) of how ending aid will result in less deaths.

Bro. I'm done replying to you. Please stop putting me on the spot.

I've got nothing so I'm going to ignore the points you make and keep spouting flippant bullsh!t about saving lives by ending US aid.

FYP

[kalm]

At least half the world and all of Europe are “stooges” …he said while he plants his Russian flag on the wrong side of history.

You are a broken record. I plant my flag on the side of less deaths. As you have no skin in the game, nor have ever served, you plant yours on sending Ukrainian to their death. Your decision here is as uninformed as your medical fascism was on COVID.

Do us all a favor. Put down your stupid Twitter feed and actually educate yourself on the topics.

You were saying something about a broken record?

War correspondent, Phil Ittner is another good source. As was my friend who got out of Karkhiv with his Ukrainian wife and kid after the bombs started dropping. I talked to him from his apartment balcony and could hear jets and explosions in the background.

If you’re for saving lives you would have denounced the invasion and Putin from the start.

Can I now be placed on your “not talking to you anymore” list too?

[Caribbean Hen]

At least half the world and all of Europe are “stooges” …he said while he plants his Russian flag on the wrong side of history.

You are a broken record. I plant my flag on the side of less deaths. As you have no skin in the game, nor have ever served, you plant yours on sending Ukrainian to their death. Your decision here is as uninformed as your medical fascism was on COVID.

Do us all a favor. Put down your stupid Twitter feed and actually educate yourself on the topics.

Yes Yes Yes

Kalm has no original ideas though so don’t count on it

[Caribbean Hen]

I agree there are no easy or convenient outcomes on the near horizon.

“We” needs to continue including all of NATO.

Many conflicts settle into long term stalemates (from the Koreas to the ME. I’m just not personally ready for ready us to write “Dear Ukraine. We tried, but it’s just taking too long and getting expensive.”

Those conflicts also settled into long term with US boots on the ground. I think there needs to be legitimate talk about bringing what's left of Ukraine and giving them NATO protection. Maybe that means we have them give up Crimea and what they don't have in the east of Ukraine right now, but that would at least draw a very firm line of how far Putin can take this. Staying the path we're on now and it could be years down the road and all of Ukraine falls. Bring Ukraine into NATO, draw the line of where NATO protection exists, put NATO boots on the ground there and yes, it's a smaller Ukraine than when this happened, but I don't see Putin daring to hit NATO. Yes, that means NATO is there for a very long time, but that's better, IMO, than some uncertain do we fund them or not that we're in now. Question is can Biden do this now or would he wait until after the election.

Hmmm one of these things sounds just like the other…

“There are no solutions, only trade offs”

Thomas Sowell

If we could have just realized that gem of a quote 25 years ago with our approach with Putin, I don’t think we would be looking at this mess today.

A bit off the subject, but that quote plays into the divorce rate…. You gotta close your battles … so many can’t give a little

I’m just not convinced this Ukraine land grab by Putin is worth how much it’s eventually gonna cost in years, money and deaths.

The only way to beat this guy is with brut force. You let Putin have a little with a firm red line and if he crosses that red line … unfortunately WW3 and play to win, you have a real reason to destroy him.

[SeattleGriz]

You are a broken record. I plant my flag on the side of less deaths. As you have no skin in the game, nor have ever served, you plant yours on sending Ukrainian to their death. Your decision here is as uninformed as your medical fascism was on COVID.

Do us all a favor. Put down your stupid Twitter feed and actually educate yourself on the topics.

You were saying something about a broken record?

War correspondent, Phil Ittner is another good source. As was my friend who got out of Karkhiv with his Ukrainian wife and kid after the bombs started dropping. I talked to him from his apartment balcony and could hear jets and explosions in the background.

If you’re for saving lives you would have denounced the invasion and Putin from the start.

Can I now be placed on your “not talking to you anymore” list too?

Should have protested long before, but honestly wasn't paying attention back in 2014.

Oh my Lord. Just stop with the "I've got a friend from karkhiv" routine. It's as bad as I've got a girlfriend, but she's Canadian so you wouldn't know her.

I can easily put you on "the list".

[SeattleGriz]

Bro. I'm done replying to you. Please stop putting me on the spot.

I've got nothing so I'm going to ignore the points you make and keep spouting flippant bullsh!t about saving lives by ending US aid.

FYP

[kalm]

You were saying something about a broken record?

War correspondent, Phil Ittner is another good source. As was my friend who got out of Karkhiv with his Ukrainian wife and kid after the bombs started dropping. I talked to him from his apartment balcony and could hear jets and explosions in the background.

If you’re for saving lives you would have denounced the invasion and Putin from the start.

Can I now be placed on your “not talking to you anymore” list too?

Should have protested long before, but honestly wasn't paying attention back in 2014.

Oh my Lord. Just stop with the "I've got a friend from karkhiv" routine. It's as bad as I've got a girlfriend, but she's Canadian so you wouldn't know her.

I can easily put you on "the list".

He was an assistant at EWU, played for my dad, who I used to help plan their annual golf tournament with. The Spokesman Review wrote a piece on he and his family’s train escape ride to Poland.

I’m sorry you don’t use reliable sources.

And you’re a doo-doo head.

List me.

[UNI88]

FYP

I am frequently

Acknowledgment is the first step.

[SeattleGriz]

Should have protested long before, but honestly wasn't paying attention back in 2014.

Oh my Lord. Just stop with the "I've got a friend from karkhiv" routine. It's as bad as I've got a girlfriend, but she's Canadian so you wouldn't know her.

I can easily put you on "the list".

He was an assistant at EWU, played for my dad, who I used to help plan their annual golf tournament with. The Spokesman Review wrote a piece on he and his family’s train escape ride to Poland.

I’m sorry you don’t use reliable sources.

And you’re a doo-doo head.

List me.

So what. Listen to you. You live in America and are constantly misrepresenting everything. You've been wrong about pretty much everything since I've been on this board.


If Klam picks it, go the opposite way is good advice. Yer bud from Kyiv... puhleaze.

[SDHornet]

I agree that the "long-term plan" is difficult at the moment. I think it hinges on a few things that we don't know. And, this is mostly just my speculation.

1. The US election in November. This is the most crucial one.

• Trump wins - I think it's game over for Ukraine.

• Biden wins and Democrats don't control the House - I think a NATO backed armistice line is a very likely possibility.

• Biden wins and Democrats control Congress - aid resumes for at least 2 years and Ukraine has another chance at a counteroffensive.

2. How much longer Putin lives. This is really a wild card. He may outlive Keith Richards for all we know. But, Putin has no heir apparent. He has been too paranoid to give anyone that status. When he dies - Russia is going to descend into chaos. It's really hard to imagine the next President of Russia coming to power in any way but a brutal power struggle. IMO this is going to be ugly when it happens and the logistics and coherence of the army is going to fall apart. Depending on how much Russia takes and digs in before this happens - Ukraine would have a chance to seize a lot of it back.

With who, NATO troops? Or will Zelensky press gang enough Ukrainian abroad to scrounge up a 3rd army?


This war needs to be ended. Ukraine had no chance of winning before it even went hot, but now after losing some major battles (Bhakmut and Adivka sp?) and having a lot of their material and troops sapped during those loses, not sure where any hope of Ukraine turning the tide comes from.

Also lol at the info that came out on the CIA's involvement and Nuland jumping ship after having a major role in this whole quagmire. Pure evil. Never forget, this only went hot because a Dem was voted into office. All this death is on Biden's voters hands.

[SDHornet]

Not crying victim at all, it is what it is.

No, you're playing the victim. Nobody cares what superstitions you believe, just because we laugh at them doesn't mean you don't have have every right to believe them if you so choose. Of course if you were someone I cared about I'd be embarrassed for you and try to help you out with some of the weaker points of your cosmology but I would never consider taking away your right to believe a recycled Egyptian sun-god myth. Thats one of the differences between me and evangelical christians.

Nah, any Christian thinking being a Christian is all about smooth sailing hasn't done any reading.

[houndawg]

No, you're playing the victim. Nobody cares what superstitions you believe, just because we laugh at them doesn't mean you don't have have every right to believe them if you so choose. Of course if you were someone I cared about I'd be embarrassed for you and try to help you out with some of the weaker points of your cosmology but I would never consider taking away your right to believe a recycled Egyptian sun-god myth. Thats one of the differences between me and evangelical christians.

Nah, any Christian thinking being a Christian is all about smooth sailing hasn't done any reading.

I've never seen one of those.

From the outside it appears to be much more about playing the victim because your religion isn't accorded a special status among superstitions.

Like how that crowd is constantly whining that the United States are a "christian nation" in spite of what Congress specificly said says about the subject. Ever the downtrodden victims preaching their victimhood from their tax-free churches.

[kalm]

Nah, any Christian thinking being a Christian is all about smooth sailing hasn't done any reading.

I've never seen one of those.

From the outside it appears to be much more about playing the victim because your religion isn't accorded a special status among superstitions.

Like how that crowd is constantly whining that the United States are a "christian nation" in spite of what Congress specificly said says about the subject. Ever the downtrodden victims preaching their victimhood from their tax-free churches.

There are some great Christian’s out there. Tremendous human beings.

They are not represented by the current GOP leadership or MAGA.

[houndawg]

I've never seen one of those.

From the outside it appears to be much more about playing the victim because your religion isn't accorded a special status among superstitions.

Like how that crowd is constantly whining that the United States are a "christian nation" in spite of what Congress specificly said says about the subject. Ever the downtrodden victims preaching their victimhood from their tax-free churches.

There are some great Christian’s out there. Tremendous human beings.

They are not represented by the current GOP leadership or MAGA.

And I know a few of them - they can be distinguished by their acceptance of others and their lack of preachiness - they lead by example and I'm not talking about that fraction of them. I'm talking about the more common kind that oh, for example, wouldn't open their church to people when a disaster left them homeless

[Caribbean Hen]

I agree that the "long-term plan" is difficult at the moment. I think it hinges on a few things that we don't know. And, this is mostly just my speculation.

1. The US election in November. This is the most crucial one.

• Trump wins - I think it's game over for Ukraine.

• Biden wins and Democrats don't control the House - I think a NATO backed armistice line is a very likely possibility.

• Biden wins and Democrats control Congress - aid resumes for at least 2 years and Ukraine has another chance at a counteroffensive.

2. How much longer Putin lives. This is really a wild card. He may outlive Keith Richards for all we know. But, Putin has no heir apparent. He has been too paranoid to give anyone that status. When he dies - Russia is going to descend into chaos. It's really hard to imagine the next President of Russia coming to power in any way but a brutal power struggle. IMO this is going to be ugly when it happens and the logistics and coherence of the army is going to fall apart. Depending on how much Russia takes and digs in before this happens - Ukraine would have a chance to seize a lot of it back.

With who, NATO troops? Or will Zelensky press gang enough Ukrainian abroad to scrounge up a 3rd army?


This war needs to be ended. Ukraine had no chance of winning before it even went hot, but now after losing some major battles (Bhakmut and Adivka sp?) and having a lot of their material and troops sapped during those loses, not sure where any hope of Ukraine turning the tide comes from.

Also lol at the info that came out on the CIA's involvement and Nuland jumping ship after having a major role in this whole quagmire. Pure evil. Never forget, this only went hot because a Dem was voted into office. All this death is on Biden's voters hands.

This

Our national clown has a long history of being wrong and sure seems like we have a losing strategy on Ukraine … maybe the plan is just pass it on to the next guy

Something so important but the majority of our 4th estate bought media never addresses it …

[kalm]

With who, NATO troops? Or will Zelensky press gang enough Ukrainian abroad to scrounge up a 3rd army?


This war needs to be ended. Ukraine had no chance of winning before it even went hot, but now after losing some major battles (Bhakmut and Adivka sp?) and having a lot of their material and troops sapped during those loses, not sure where any hope of Ukraine turning the tide comes from.

Also lol at the info that came out on the CIA's involvement and Nuland jumping ship after having a major role in this whole quagmire. Pure evil. Never forget, this only went hot because a Dem was voted into office. All this death is on Biden's voters hands.

This

Our national clown has a long history of being wrong and sure seems like we have a losing strategy on Ukraine … maybe the plan is just pass it on to the next guy

Something so important but the majority of our 4th estate bought media never addresses it …

Defending democracy against a nuclear armed and belligerent tyrant is not a losing strategy for us. And it’s an existential strategy for the Ukrainians if not much of Europe.

[UNI88]

I agree that the "long-term plan" is difficult at the moment. I think it hinges on a few things that we don't know. And, this is mostly just my speculation.

1. The US election in November. This is the most crucial one.

• Trump wins - I think it's game over for Ukraine.

• Biden wins and Democrats don't control the House - I think a NATO backed armistice line is a very likely possibility.

• Biden wins and Democrats control Congress - aid resumes for at least 2 years and Ukraine has another chance at a counteroffensive.

2. How much longer Putin lives. This is really a wild card. He may outlive Keith Richards for all we know. But, Putin has no heir apparent. He has been too paranoid to give anyone that status. When he dies - Russia is going to descend into chaos. It's really hard to imagine the next President of Russia coming to power in any way but a brutal power struggle. IMO this is going to be ugly when it happens and the logistics and coherence of the army is going to fall apart. Depending on how much Russia takes and digs in before this happens - Ukraine would have a chance to seize a lot of it back.

With who, NATO troops? Or will Zelensky press gang enough Ukrainian abroad to scrounge up a 3rd army?

This war needs to be ended. Ukraine had no chance of winning before it even went hot, but now after losing some major battles (Bhakmut and Adivka sp?) and having a lot of their material and troops sapped during those loses, not sure where any hope of Ukraine turning the tide comes from.

Also lol at the info that came out on the CIA's involvement and Nuland jumping ship after having a major role in this whole quagmire. Pure evil. Never forget, this only went hot because a Dem was voted into office. All this death is on Biden's voters hands.

Are you suggesting we force Ukraine to negotiate a peace? I don't think they're going to sue for peace just because the US withdraws aid.

Ukraine rebuffs Pope Francis calling for talks with Russia

Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba, writing on the X messaging platform, said that the strong person in any dispute "stands on the side of good rather than attempting to put them on the same footing and call it 'negotiations'".

"Our flag is a yellow and blue one," Kuleba wrote in English, referring to the Ukrainian national flag. "This is the flag by which we live, die, and prevail. We shall never raise any other flags."

You can blather on with rumors and innuendo about Zelensky not wanting to give up his grift but I think he and most Ukrainians are in this until the end because they're fighting for the existence of Ukraine and the Ukrainian people.

Weary but determined, women join Ukraine's fight against Russia in historic numbers

“You know why you are fighting,” she added. “Our destination, it’s too important for us.”

That destination is a Ukrainian victory, and it’s facing mounting odds.

[houndawg]

At least half the world and all of Europe are “stooges” …he said while he plants his Russian flag on the wrong side of history.

You are a broken record. I plant my flag on the side of less deaths. As you have no skin in the game, nor have ever served, you plant yours on sending Ukrainian to their death. Your decision here is as uninformed as your medical fascism was on COVID.

Do us all a favor. Put down your stupid Twitter feed and actually educate yourself on the topics.

you're so amazingly full of shit


The killing doesn't stop just because you surrender to the Russians, SG. (Speaking of educating yourself).

[houndawg]

Here's your chance to provide a real explanation (i.e. not some flippant MAQA yahoo echo chamber talking points) of how ending aid will result in less deaths.

Bro. I'm done replying to you.

You want answers to everything and then back down and provide none when it's your turn.

They say it helps if you cry.

[houndawg]

I agree that the "long-term plan" is difficult at the moment. I think it hinges on a few things that we don't know. And, this is mostly just my speculation.

1. The US election in November. This is the most crucial one.

• Trump wins - I think it's game over for Ukraine.

• Biden wins and Democrats don't control the House - I think a NATO backed armistice line is a very likely possibility.

• Biden wins and Democrats control Congress - aid resumes for at least 2 years and Ukraine has another chance at a counteroffensive.

2. How much longer Putin lives. This is really a wild card. He may outlive Keith Richards for all we know. But, Putin has no heir apparent. He has been too paranoid to give anyone that status. When he dies - Russia is going to descend into chaos. It's really hard to imagine the next President of Russia coming to power in any way but a brutal power struggle. IMO this is going to be ugly when it happens and the logistics and coherence of the army is going to fall apart. Depending on how much Russia takes and digs in before this happens - Ukraine would have a chance to seize a lot of it back.

Nice Keith Richards reference

So why is Putin still alive? How many support him out of fear?

He doesn’t look like he’s dying from natural caused anytime soon but he has cerebral palsy according to word on the street

Hillary’s mafia could probably get it done

He came up through the KGB so he's a tough target for assassins, he knows the drill; 100% of his support is based on fear, obviously.

[Caribbean Hen]

This

Our national clown has a long history of being wrong and sure seems like we have a losing strategy on Ukraine … maybe the plan is just pass it on to the next guy

Something so important but the majority of our 4th estate bought media never addresses it …

I love this war

FYP