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SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:04 pm

bobbythekidd wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:59 pm
Then I must be reading this thread a few pages in, incorrectly. What's the narrative that is the problem?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but for starters I feel the US really pushed the boundary with Putin and he has reacted to that. I've quoted a fair amount of articles in which the US promised, "not one inch further" towards Russia with troops and NATO, but didn't keep that promise. Your word is your word. I also advocated for discussions to diffuse, but we obviously didn't go that route.

In addition, the whole Putin was going to do this or that is all without basis. Very similar to what you said the other day when nobody on this board, or in the media was in on the Russian operational plan. Not specifically Russia, but you understand what I mean.

Lastly, the fact that Russia is absolutely clobbering Ukraine via an artillery war. Some think Russia is losing.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:40 am

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:04 pm

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but for starters I feel the US really pushed the boundary with Putin and he has reacted to that. I've quoted a fair amount of articles in which the US promised, "not one inch further" towards Russia with troops and NATO, but didn't keep that promise. Your word is your word. I also advocated for discussions to diffuse, but we obviously didn't go that route.

In addition, the whole Putin was going to do this or that is all without basis. Very similar to what you said the other day when nobody on this board, or in the media was in on the Russian operational plan. Not specifically Russia, but you understand what I mean.

Lastly, the fact that Russia is absolutely clobbering Ukraine via an artillery war. Some think Russia is losing.

And once again, the US isn't pushing NATO anywhere near as much as individual sovereign nations that aren't the US or Russia are making their own decisions on how to protect their countries from assault and annihilation. The Baltic countries weren't wined and dined by the US to join NATO, they did it on their own volition because they didn't want the threat of subjugation from a hostile neighbor hanging over their heads. Same has been the case for literally everyone else in NATO.

What pisses Russia off and why they have launched this completely unprovoked attack on Ukraine (like they did 8 years ago when they stole Crimea) is that they want to have control over satellite countries near them - they want to pick the government and the leaders and the other levers of power in those countries and when they can't, because those countries decided on their own what type of country they want and how they want to live, they get angry. There's a lot of graft and other perks you get from pulling the reins in another country. There's no offensive threat from NATO. There's no danger to Russia or Russia's sovereignty that other countries near them could opt to join a defensive alliance that prevents Russia (or at least deters them) from invading them. There's no ambiguity here, Russia is clearly the aggressor and clearly in the wrong.

A months-long examination by The Washington Post of the intelligence war in Ukraine draws on a trove of sensitive materials including intercepted communications involving Russian intelligence operatives, as well as in-depth interviews with senior Ukrainian, U.S. and European officials. Here are some key findings:

1. A clandestine branch of Russia’s security service was deeply involved in the Kremlin’s failed war plan, assuring officials in Moscow that Ukraine’s government would fall quickly and deploying operatives to install a puppet regime.

The FSB branch, known internally as the Department of Operational Information, has for years carried out clandestine operations to penetrate Ukraine’s institutions, pay off pro-Russian politicians and prevent the country from leaving Moscow’s orbit. Despite its intense focus on Ukraine, Western intelligence officials said, the FSB either failed to grasp how fiercely Ukraine would resist, or did understand but couldn’t convey such inconvenient information to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

2. FSB officers were so confident they would seize the levers of power in Kyiv that they spent the final days before the war arranging accommodations in the capital.

Communications intercepted by Ukrainian security services show FSB officers asking colleagues for details about apartments and other locations they might use as safe houses, residences or bases of operation. Days before Russian forces crossed into Ukraine, officials said, FSB informants were told to vacate the capital but leave behind keys to their residences for arriving Russian operatives.

3. The FSB’s Ukraine department underwent a major expansion in the period leading up to the invasion, according to Ukrainian and Western security officials.

The department surged in size from about 30 officers in 2019 to as many as 160 on the eve of the Ukraine invasion, officials said. FSB teams were assigned regions of Ukraine and networks of sleeper agents inside the country. In retrospect, Ukrainian officials see the buildup as an early warning that Russia was laying the groundwork for an attack.

4. The FSB worked closely with prominent collaborators and lined up at least two pro-Russian governments-in-waiting.

The FSB’s main allies included former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych, who fled to Russia in 2014, and Viktor Medvedchuk, an oligarch who became co-leader of Ukraine’s main pro-Russian party after forging a close relationship with Putin. Yanukovych was at the center of a group that assembled in Belarus in early March, possibly positioned to swoop in and reclaim power. A second group involving former members of Yanukovych’s party gathered in territory in southern Ukraine that was seized early in the war by Russian forces.

5. Despite repeated failures, FSB leaders remain in their positions and the agency has regrouped, putting officers on three-month rotations in regions occupied by Russian forces.

U.S. and other officials said they have seen no evidence that Putin has cleaned house at the top of Russia’s spy agencies or held senior officials to account for costly misjudgments. Instead, FSB Director Alexander Bortnikov and the leader of its Ukraine directorate, Sergey Beseda, remain in their positions, overseeing aspects of the war effort.

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:06 am Sounds like when Michigan played App State. Way over confident.

U.S. and other officials said they have seen no evidence that Putin has cleaned house at the top of Russia’s spy agencies or held senior officials to account for costly misjudgments. Instead, FSB Director Alexander Bortnikov and the leader of its Ukraine directorate, Sergey Beseda, remain in their positions, overseeing aspects of the war effort.

bobbythekidd wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:52 pm Admittedly i should have been following this more closely, but why are some rooting for Russia in this?

Silenoz wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:31 am

bobbythekidd wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:52 pm Admittedly i should have been following this more closely, but why are some rooting for Russia in this?

Because it's going to "own the libs" in some tortured, roundabout way. And because it's too late to reverse course so they have to double down.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:39 am

Silenoz wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:31 am

Because it's going to "own the libs" in some tortured, roundabout way. And because it's too late to reverse course so they have to double down.

It has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever seen on this site. I'm still convinced some of these posters are either Russian bots or being paid in rubles to post some of these things. Crazy times.

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:47 am

GannonFan wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:39 am
It has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever seen on this site. I'm still convinced some of these posters are either Russian bots or being paid in rubles to post some of these things. Crazy times.

я не робот, Я слепо следую за tрампом

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:47 am

GannonFan wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:39 am

It has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever seen on this site. I'm still convinced some of these posters are either Russian bots or being paid in rubles to post some of these things. Crazy times.

я не робот

UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:51 am

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:47 am

я не робот, Я слепо следую за tрампом

Truth!

bobbythekidd wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:59 pm

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:55 pm

None are rooting for Russia, some just aren't buying the narrative the media is putting out.

Then I must be reading this thread a few pages in, incorrectly. What's the narrative that is the problem?

kalm wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 4:35 am Dugin is like the Limabaugh or Tucker of Russia. Putin remains a master strategist. I don’t believe Trump has ever denounced Russia’s aggression.

Baldy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 4:42 pm This may have been posted before, but this seems interestingly odd.

The Grayzone is a left-wing[1] to far-left[11] news website and blog[15] founded and edited by American journalist Max Blumenthal.[12] The website, initially founded as The Grayzone Project,[16] was affiliated with AlterNet before becoming independent in early 2018.[2] The website's news content is generally considered to be fringe.[2][17][18][19] It is known for misleading reporting[20] and sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes,[2][13][21] in addition to its denial of the Uyghur genocide.[25] The Grayzone has spread conspiracy theories about Venezuela, Xinjiang, Syria, and other regions.[26][27]

The Grayzone has been criticized for defending authoritarian regimes.[12][2][27][28] Bruce Bawer, writing in Commentary, described The Grayzone as "a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel and Palestine".[28] Nerma Jelacic, writing in the Index on Censorship, described The Grayzone as "a Kremlin-connected online outlet that pushes pro-Russian conspiracy theories and genocide denial."[41] The Grayzone had previously claimed Jelacic's employer collaborated with ISIS and Jabhat al-Nusra affiliates.[41]

Writing in socialist magazine New Politics, Lebanese Marxist academic Gilbert Achcar described The Grayzone as "pro-Putin, pro-Assad 'left-wing' propaganda combined with gutter journalism", stating that the website has "the habit of demonizing all left-wing critics of Putin and the likes of Assad by describing them as 'agents of imperialism' or some equivalent".[42]

Skjellyfetti wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:33 pm Hadn't heard of The Grayzone before. Sounds like a Liberal Treehouse.

The Grayzone is a left-wing[1] to far-left[11] news website and blog[15] founded and edited by American journalist Max Blumenthal.[12] The website, initially founded as The Grayzone Project,[16] was affiliated with AlterNet before becoming independent in early 2018.[2] The website's news content is generally considered to be fringe.[2][17][18][19] It is known for misleading reporting[20] and sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes,[2][13][21] in addition to its denial of the Uyghur genocide.[25] The Grayzone has spread conspiracy theories about Venezuela, Xinjiang, Syria, and other regions.[26][27]

The Grayzone has been criticized for defending authoritarian regimes.[12][2][27][28] Bruce Bawer, writing in Commentary, described The Grayzone as "a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel and Palestine".[28] Nerma Jelacic, writing in the Index on Censorship, described The Grayzone as "a Kremlin-connected online outlet that pushes pro-Russian conspiracy theories and genocide denial."[41] The Grayzone had previously claimed Jelacic's employer collaborated with ISIS and Jabhat al-Nusra affiliates.[41]

Writing in socialist magazine New Politics, Lebanese Marxist academic Gilbert Achcar described The Grayzone as "pro-Putin, pro-Assad 'left-wing' propaganda combined with gutter journalism", stating that the website has "the habit of demonizing all left-wing critics of Putin and the likes of Assad by describing them as 'agents of imperialism' or some equivalent".[42]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grayzone

Baldy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 4:42 pm This may have been posted before, but this seems interestingly odd.

Skjellyfetti wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:33 pm Hadn't heard of The Grayzone before. Sounds like a Liberal Treehouse.

The Grayzone is a left-wing[1] to far-left[11] news website and blog[15] founded and edited by American journalist Max Blumenthal.[12] The website, initially founded as The Grayzone Project,[16] was affiliated with AlterNet before becoming independent in early 2018.[2] The website's news content is generally considered to be fringe.[2][17][18][19] It is known for misleading reporting[20] and sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes,[2][13][21] in addition to its denial of the Uyghur genocide.[25] The Grayzone has spread conspiracy theories about Venezuela, Xinjiang, Syria, and other regions.[26][27]

The Grayzone has been criticized for defending authoritarian regimes.[12][2][27][28] Bruce Bawer, writing in Commentary, described The Grayzone as "a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel and Palestine".[28] Nerma Jelacic, writing in the Index on Censorship, described The Grayzone as "a Kremlin-connected online outlet that pushes pro-Russian conspiracy theories and genocide denial."[41] The Grayzone had previously claimed Jelacic's employer collaborated with ISIS and Jabhat al-Nusra affiliates.[41]

Writing in socialist magazine New Politics, Lebanese Marxist academic Gilbert Achcar described The Grayzone as "pro-Putin, pro-Assad 'left-wing' propaganda combined with gutter journalism", stating that the website has "the habit of demonizing all left-wing critics of Putin and the likes of Assad by describing them as 'agents of imperialism' or some equivalent".[42]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grayzone