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BDKJMU wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 3:38 pm

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:52 pm Ding dong, CIDs boss is dead. Piece of shit neocons responsible for the destruction of Ukraine steps down like a rat off a sinking ship.

Yep.

What percentage of Ukrainians do you think would support this tweet?

kalm wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 3:43 pm

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 3:38 pm
Yep.

What percentage of Ukrainians do you think would support this tweet?

I'm betting that the vast majority of Ukrainians blame putin for the death and destruction.

Jelly has better connections there than BDKKKaren or SeattleGolum. What's his perspective?

Skjellyfetti wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:32 am Even Putin in his 2.5 hour monologue with Tucker didn't claim that as the reason for the invasion.

Wasn't the reason, was the justification.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:29 am

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:33 pm

No, he was asked by the Donbass for protection, but you keep with that narrative. It was either that, or Ukraine, which had massed at the border, was going to invade the Donbass and kill more of their brethren.

Russia and Russian supported units have been in Ukraine, and the Donbass, for at least as long as 2014, if not longer, but you keep with that narrative that they're just there for "protection".

Did you see the NY Times article on the CIA in Ukraine? Don't act like this is a one way street.

When you say, "Russian troops", please quantify. How many and where? Nothing exhaustive. Ballpark figures you trust.

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:15 pm

Skjellyfetti wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:32 am Even Putin in his 2.5 hour monologue with Tucker didn't claim that as the reason for the invasion.

Wasn't the reason, was the justification.

NATO treated Putin and his concerns with little regard and now he’s got a huge chip on his shoulder that looks like a nuclear warhead…. He won’t lose his war in Ukraine

Joey Rotten obviously wants this war… what a mess the whole thing is and all because of ego and emotions

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:15 pm

Skjellyfetti wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:32 am Even Putin in his 2.5 hour monologue with Tucker didn't claim that as the reason for the invasion.

Wasn't the reason, was the justification.

It boggles the mind that you posted "Wasn't the reason, was the justification."

From Merriam Webster:

justification (noun)
jus·​ti·​fi·​ca·​tion
Synonyms of justification
1
a: the act or an instance of justifying something : VINDICATION
arguments offered in justification of their choice
b: an acceptable reason for doing something : something that justifies an act or way of behaving
could provide no justification for his decision
2: the act, process, or state of being justified by God (see JUSTIFY sense 2a)
3: the process or result of justifying lines of text (see JUSTIFY sense 3a)
software that provides automatic justification of text

Reason is part of the definition of justification. Justification is a synonym for reason.

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:10 pm

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:15 pm

Wasn't the reason, was the justification.

NATO treated Putin and his concerns with little regard and now he’s got a huge chip on his shoulder that looks like a nuclear warhead…. He won’t lose his war in Ukraine

Joey Rotten obviously wants this war… what a mess the whole thing is and all because of ego and emotions

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:27 am

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:52 pm Ding dong, CIDs boss is dead. Piece of shit neocons responsible for the destruction of Ukraine steps down like a rat off a sinking ship.

The guy who works at Boeing probably shouldn't be taking these kinds of shots at someone.

ouch... gonna need some ice for that burn....

Congratulations to Sweden for joining NATO.

Without Putin stepping on his dick, NATO was headed towards irrelevancy. Now, it's stronger and more unified than it has been in decades. Takes shrewd diplomacy to reverse hundreds of years of Swedish neutrality.

Skjellyfetti wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:18 pm Congratulations to Sweden for joining NATO.

Without Putin stepping on his dick, NATO was headed towards irrelevancy. Now, it's stronger and more unified than it has been in decades. Takes shrewd diplomacy to reverse hundreds of years of Swedish neutrality.

What about Finland?

Yes I know … google is my friend

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:37 pm

Skjellyfetti wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:18 pm Congratulations to Sweden for joining NATO.

Without Putin stepping on his dick, NATO was headed towards irrelevancy. Now, it's stronger and more unified than it has been in decades. Takes shrewd diplomacy to reverse hundreds of years of Swedish neutrality.

What about Finland?

Yes I know … google is my friend

They joined in April 2023.

putin is a master strategist.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:47 pm

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:37 pm

What about Finland?

Yes I know … google is my friend

They joined in April 2023.

putin is a master strategist.

So when are we going to beat him and end this stupid war?

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:33 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:47 pm

They joined in April 2023.

putin is a master strategist.

So when are we going to beat him and end this stupid war?

This has been great. Got the stooges sputtering because they can't answer basic questions.

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 5:45 am

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:33 pm

So when are we going to beat him and end this stupid war?

This has been great. Got the stooges sputtering because they keep asking stupid questions.

Yep.

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 5:45 am

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:33 pm

So when are we going to beat him and end this stupid war?

This has been great. Got the stooges sputtering because they can't answer basic questions.

At least half the world and all of Europe are “stooges” …he said while he plants his Russian flag on the wrong side of history.

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 5:45 am

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:33 pm

So when are we going to beat him and end this stupid war?

This has been great. Got the stooges sputtering because they can't answer basic questions.

Exactly

These guys are all talk and no answers …

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:23 am

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 5:45 am

This has been great. Got the stooges sputtering because they can't answer basic questions.

Exactly

These guys are all talk and no answers …

Continue to help UKR reject Russian advances and secure their sovereignty until Russia finally gives up. Either send additional aid and/or weapons to UKR or start using frozen Russian assets (economically risky but do U.S. war).

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:33 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:47 pm

They joined in April 2023.

putin is a master strategist.

So when are we going to beat him and end this stupid war?

When Trump gives that creepy little sock puppet in the Speaker's chair the OK?

kalm wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:32 am

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:23 am

Exactly

These guys are all talk and no answers …

Continue to help UKR reject Russian advances and secure their sovereignty until Russia finally gives up. Either send additional aid and/or weapons to UKR or start using frozen Russian assets (economically risky but do U.S. war).

Can you post the Well we’re waiting gif for me ..

Seriously, what you’re really saying results in a stalemate and Putin can continue with your approach as long as it takes. He’s just not going to give up. The ugly truth is to break the tie, somebody needs to up their game and it will be ugly. A shame a resolution couldn’t have been agreed too and nobody is even even trying

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:16 am

kalm wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:32 am

Continue to help UKR reject Russian advances and secure their sovereignty until Russia finally gives up. Either send additional aid and/or weapons to UKR or start using frozen Russian assets (economically risky but do U.S. war).

Can you post the Well we’re waiting gif for me ..

Seriously, what you’re really saying results in a stalemate and Putin can continue with your approach as long as it takes. He’s just not going to give up. The ugly truth is to break the tie, somebody needs to up their game and it will be ugly. A shame a resolution couldn’t have been agreed too and nobody is even even trying

CH has a little bit of a point here, and that point being how long does this go on? A year? 5 years? 10 years?

In two years, we've given Ukraine about $75B in aid, spread out over everything from actual hardware to financing. That's only a relatively small amount of our annual outlays (maybe 0.3%). It is big considering our annual military budget (about 9% of our annual budget there), so we do need to consider this versus funding our own military.

So it's a question of where all this is leading. Can we continue this for another 3-5 years? I don't see a military solution coming anytime soon here. And I agree, letting Putin have any of Ukraine is not a viable solution either (see how we let him have Crimea 8 years ago without really pushing back). I don't have the answers, but we need to find one.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:28 am

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:16 am


Can you post the Well we’re waiting gif for me ..

Seriously, what you’re really saying results in a stalemate and Putin can continue with your approach as long as it takes. He’s just not going to give up. The ugly truth is to break the tie, somebody needs to up their game and it will be ugly. A shame a resolution couldn’t have been agreed too and nobody is even even trying

CH has a little bit of a point here, and that point being how long does this go on? A year? 5 years? 10 years?

In two years, we've given Ukraine about $75B in aid, spread out over everything from actual hardware to financing. That's only a relatively small amount of our annual outlays (maybe 0.3%). It is big considering our annual military budget (about 9% of our annual budget there), so we do need to consider this versus funding our own military.

So it's a question of where all this is leading. Can we continue this for another 3-5 years? I don't see a military solution coming anytime soon here. And I agree, letting Putin have any of Ukraine is not a viable solution either (see how we let him have Crimea 8 years ago without really pushing back). I don't have the answers, but we need to find one.

“There are no solutions, only trade offs”

Thomas Sowell

If we could have just realized that gem of a quote 25 years ago with our approach with Putin, I don’t think we would be looking at this mess today.

A bit off the subject, but that quote plays into the divorce rate…. You gotta close your battles … so many can’t give a little

I’m just not convinced this Ukraine land grab by Putin is worth how much it’s eventually gonna cost in years, money and deaths.

The only way to beat this guy is with brut force. You let Putin have a little with a firm red line and if he crosses that red line … unfortunately WW3 and play to win, you have a real reason to destroy him.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:28 am

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:16 am


Can you post the Well we’re waiting gif for me ..

Seriously, what you’re really saying results in a stalemate and Putin can continue with your approach as long as it takes. He’s just not going to give up. The ugly truth is to break the tie, somebody needs to up their game and it will be ugly. A shame a resolution couldn’t have been agreed too and nobody is even even trying

CH has a little bit of a point here, and that point being how long does this go on? A year? 5 years? 10 years?

In two years, we've given Ukraine about $75B in aid, spread out over everything from actual hardware to financing. That's only a relatively small amount of our annual outlays (maybe 0.3%). It is big considering our annual military budget (about 9% of our annual budget there), so we do need to consider this versus funding our own military.

So it's a question of where all this is leading. Can we continue this for another 3-5 years? I don't see a military solution coming anytime soon here. And I agree, letting Putin have any of Ukraine is not a viable solution either (see how we let him have Crimea 8 years ago without really pushing back). I don't have the answers, but we need to find one.

I agree there are no easy or convenient outcomes on the near horizon.

“We” needs to continue including all of NATO.

Many conflicts settle into long term stalemates (from the Koreas to the ME. I’m just not personally ready for ready us to write “Dear Ukraine. We tried, but it’s just taking too long and getting expensive.”

kalm wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 9:19 am

GannonFan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:28 am

CH has a little bit of a point here, and that point being how long does this go on? A year? 5 years? 10 years?

In two years, we've given Ukraine about $75B in aid, spread out over everything from actual hardware to financing. That's only a relatively small amount of our annual outlays (maybe 0.3%). It is big considering our annual military budget (about 9% of our annual budget there), so we do need to consider this versus funding our own military.

So it's a question of where all this is leading. Can we continue this for another 3-5 years? I don't see a military solution coming anytime soon here. And I agree, letting Putin have any of Ukraine is not a viable solution either (see how we let him have Crimea 8 years ago without really pushing back). I don't have the answers, but we need to find one.

I agree there are no easy or convenient outcomes on the near horizon.

“We” needs to continue including all of NATO.

Many conflicts settle into long term stalemates (from the Koreas to the ME. I’m just not personally ready for ready us to write “Dear Ukraine. We tried, but it’s just taking too long and getting expensive.”

Those conflicts also settled into long term with US boots on the ground. I think there needs to be legitimate talk about bringing what's left of Ukraine and giving them NATO protection. Maybe that means we have them give up Crimea and what they don't have in the east of Ukraine right now, but that would at least draw a very firm line of how far Putin can take this. Staying the path we're on now and it could be years down the road and all of Ukraine falls. Bring Ukraine into NATO, draw the line of where NATO protection exists, put NATO boots on the ground there and yes, it's a smaller Ukraine than when this happened, but I don't see Putin daring to hit NATO. Yes, that means NATO is there for a very long time, but that's better, IMO, than some uncertain do we fund them or not that we're in now. Question is can Biden do this now or would he wait until after the election.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:28 am

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:16 am
Can you post the Well we’re waiting gif for me ..

Seriously, what you’re really saying results in a stalemate and Putin can continue with your approach as long as it takes. He’s just not going to give up. The ugly truth is to break the tie, somebody needs to up their game and it will be ugly. A shame a resolution couldn’t have been agreed too and nobody is even even trying

CH has a little bit of a point here, and that point being how long does this go on? A year? 5 years? 10 years?

In two years, we've given Ukraine about $75B in aid, spread out over everything from actual hardware to financing. That's only a relatively small amount of our annual outlays (maybe 0.3%). It is big considering our annual military budget (about 9% of our annual budget there), so we do need to consider this versus funding our own military.

So it's a question of where all this is leading. Can we continue this for another 3-5 years? I don't see a military solution coming anytime soon here. And I agree, letting Putin have any of Ukraine is not a viable solution either (see how we let him have Crimea 8 years ago without really pushing back). I don't have the answers, but we need to find one.

CH has a point but I think he and SG oversimplify things in their rush to suck up to trump through putin. They oversimplify things and assume that:

• There will be peace if we stop sending aid to Ukraine. What if Ukraine refuses to accept any agreement that doesn't return their territory? What if russia sees the drop in aid as an opportunity to take more of Ukraine and pushes the invasion harder? Ending US aid does not automatically result in the end of hostilities and fewer lives lost. It could very well have the opposite effect.
• There will be peace and it will last. This is putin's 2nd invasion of Ukraine. We can't be sure that he won't use peace as an opportunity to rebuild his armed forces and prepare for a future invasion to take more or all of Ukraine. The "we'll hold him accountable if he does" argument rings hollow because he's already done it and they don't want to hold him accountable. Why should I believe they'll have the stomach to hold him accountable if he does it again?

Ganny is right is that we need to be considering the end game and evaluating our options and their ramifications. What is the long-term plan?

I agree that the "long-term plan" is difficult at the moment. I think it hinges on a few things that we don't know. And, this is mostly just my speculation.

1. The US election in November. This is the most crucial one.

• Trump wins - I think it's game over for Ukraine.

• Biden wins and Democrats don't control the House - I think a NATO backed armistice line is a very likely possibility.

• Biden wins and Democrats control Congress - aid resumes for at least 2 years and Ukraine has another chance at a counteroffensive.

2. How much longer Putin lives. This is really a wild card. He may outlive Keith Richards for all we know. But, Putin has no heir apparent. He has been too paranoid to give anyone that status. When he dies - Russia is going to descend into chaos. It's really hard to imagine the next President of Russia coming to power in any way but a brutal power struggle. IMO this is going to be ugly when it happens and the logistics and coherence of the army is going to fall apart. Depending on how much Russia takes and digs in before this happens - Ukraine would have a chance to seize a lot of it back.