Page 1 of 3

Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:16 am
by JoltinJoe
This is from the my third grader's common core homework.
When authors write to inform, they use facts, reasons, and truths.
I guess the common core drafters have never read anything from D1B. :lol:

Seriously, though, here are some questions from his math homework last night.
"Holly's teacher says the school library has 1000 books. Holly thinks that the library may have 40 more books. What is the greatest number of books the library could have?"
Tom thinks the library may have 40 fewer books than 1000. What is the smallest number of books that the library could have?
:coffee:

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:08 am
by Ibanez
JoltinJoe wrote:This is from the my third grader's common core homework.
When authors write to inform, they use facts, reasons, and truths.
I guess the common core drafters have never read anything from D1B. :lol:

Seriously, though, here are some questions from his math homework last night.
"Holly's teacher says the school library has 1000 books. Holly thinks that the library may have 40 more books. What is the greatest number of books the library could have?"
Tom thinks the library may have 40 fewer books than 1000. What is the smallest number of books that the library could have?
:coffee:
I've just now heard of Common Core. Isn't there some controversy surrounding this?

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:09 am
by Vidav
There isn't enough information to properly answer either of those questions. . .

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:15 am
by JoltinJoe
Vidav wrote:There isn't enough information to properly answer either of those questions. . .
Image

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:17 am
by JoltinJoe
BTW, he's guessing that the answers the Common Core kings are seeking are 1,040 and 960. :?

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:24 am
by Pwns
The problem with US education, in one cartoon...


Image

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:31 am
by Ibanez
JoltinJoe wrote:BTW, he's guessing that the answers the Common Core kings are seeking are 1,040 and 960. :?
What's the correct answer if it isn't that obvious?

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:46 am
by JoltinJoe
Ibanez wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:BTW, he's guessing that the answers the Common Core kings are seeking are 1,040 and 960. :?
What's the correct answer if it isn't that obvious?
Oh, those are the "correct" answers, but you really don't have enough information to reach those numbers. In order to reach those "answers," you have to make the assumption that Holly and Tom's estimates correctly represent the respective high end or low end of the possible number of books.

The questions are flawed. Vidav is correct that you do not have enough information to actually answer the questions.

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:03 am
by Ibanez
JoltinJoe wrote:
Ibanez wrote: What's the correct answer if it isn't that obvious?
Oh, those are the "correct" answers, but you really don't have enough information to reach those numbers. In order to reach those "answers," you have to make the assumption that Holly and Tom's estimates correctly represent the respective high end or low end of the possible number of books.

The questions are flawed. Vidav is correct that you do not have enough information to actually answer the questions.
Holly's teacher says the school library has 1000 books. Holly thinks that the library may have 40 more books.
So given the question, we know there is at least 1000 books (or is the teacher a liar?) if Holly thinks there is 40 more books, then she believes the library holds 1000 books. Assumptions aside, are you bound by the constraints given you? Are students really expected to make assumptions about the accuracy of hypothetical questions?

That's frustrating as hell. Why not ask, "1000 - X = 960" or something more clear. Are they trying to get students to explain how they came about the answer?

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:10 am
by CID1990
I don't understand why the questions have to be worded that way. They force you into assumptions, which is a bad idea outside of theoretical physics.

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:12 am
by JoltinJoe
Ibanez wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:This is from the my third grader's common core homework.



I guess the common core drafters have never read anything from D1B. :lol:

Seriously, though, here are some questions from his math homework last night.





:coffee:
I've just now heard of Common Core. Isn't there some controversy surrounding this?
A lot of controversy.

First, many parents do not like that the Common Core standards are geared to provide "answers" to standardized testing. They believe (and not incorrectly) that there is a difference between "test preparation" and real learning, and that the whole educational process has been transformed into test preparation.

Second, many parents do not like that the Common Core standards have become the entirety of public school curricula throughout the states. They believe Common Core should be one aspect of a more rounded curriculum.

Third, many parents are upset that the Common Core standards are uniform to an extreme, so that they do not allow teachers to deviate for the benefit of any one of their students. (Although the guidance counselor at our middle school told me, somewhat confidentially, that they do not intend to place weight on the standardized test scores in assessing a student's eligibility for advanced placement classes, which would really violate Common Core policy. They will assess eligibility by their own observations of a student's preparedness for advanced classes).

Fourth, the math common core standard methods are ridiculous. When I learned math, we were taught to define and express our answer in the most precise and efficient terms. Common core demands, however, that a student's answer demonstrates their mental process in reaching an answer; therefore, the "correct" answer is the only answer which shows they understand the underlying concepts.

This requires longer and more inefficient expressions of an answer. By way of an example, my third grader essentially had a word problem which asked him (in a roundabout way) to determine the product of "9" and "7." So he wrote his answer as "9x7=63"). He was marked wrong. :? The correct answer: "9+9+9+9+9+9+9=63," because his answer needed to show that he understood that the product of 9x7 represents the sum of adding "9" seven times. :rofl:

Now, in my day, the teacher would have told you that your answer was needlessly complex, and the correct answer was more efficiently represented by the expression "9x7=63." But Common Core fears you might have guessed at this answer -- you MUST show mastery of the concepts in your answer, or it is deemed wrong, even if you are right. In my day, a teacher would have accepted that the answer "9x7=63" most likely shows understanding of the concepts and, if the student guessed, well, that's the way the world works some times!

Parents fear, thus, there is a disconnect between Common Core standards and real world standards. If you were in a job which required, among other things, expression of a mathematical equations, your boss would fire you for expressing "9x7" as "9+9+9+9+9+9+9."

Fifth, the language arts questions are often vague, or unclear, or include incorrect information. A recent reading assignment for my third grader stated that Neil Armstrong flew on Apollo 13, and another said that "John" Monroe was the fifth president of the United States.

So, in my estimation, that's the CC controversy in a nutshell.

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:15 am
by JoltinJoe
Ibanez wrote: That's frustrating as hell. Why not ask, "1000 - X = 960" or something more clear. Are they trying to get students to explain how they came about the answer?
Yes, see what I wrote above while you were also writing. But, there are a lot of problems with that. As CID observes, the questions force the children to make assumptions, which really should not be a part of a straight-forward third-grade math assignment. At the third grade level, teachers should seek to teach children simply how to perform mathematical functions, and that's all.

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:24 am
by Ibanez
CID1990 wrote:I don't understand why the questions have to be worded that way. They force you into assumptions, which is a bad idea outside of theoretical physics.
Agreed.

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:24 am
by Ivytalk
Common Core is the apotheosis of inexactitude, for those soft-minded "educators" who believe that there's no certainty in anything ... even math. :coffee:

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:25 am
by Ibanez
JoltinJoe wrote:
Ibanez wrote: That's frustrating as hell. Why not ask, "1000 - X = 960" or something more clear. Are they trying to get students to explain how they came about the answer?
Yes, see what I wrote above while you were also writing. But, there are a lot of problems with that. As CID observes, the questions force the children to make assumptions, which really should not be a part of a straight-forward third-grade math assignment. At the third grade level, teachers should seek to teach children simply how to perform mathematical functions, and that's all.
The three of us said the same thing in 3 different posts. :lol: Having a 3rd grade make assumptions when he/she should focus on understanding the principles is asinine.

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:29 am
by JoltinJoe
Ibanez wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
Yes, see what I wrote above while you were also writing. But, there are a lot of problems with that. As CID observes, the questions force the children to make assumptions, which really should not be a part of a straight-forward third-grade math assignment. At the third grade level, teachers should seek to teach children simply how to perform mathematical functions, and that's all.
The three of us said the same thing in 3 different posts. :lol: Having a 3rd grade make assumptions when he/she should focus on understanding the principles is asinine.
:lol:

Yes, except having been "schooled" now in Common Core so I can review my kids' homework, my explanation was longer and far less efficient than what you and CID said!

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:30 am
by Ibanez
JoltinJoe wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
I've just now heard of Common Core. Isn't there some controversy surrounding this?
A lot of controversy.

First, many parents do not like that the Common Core standards are geared to provide "answers" to standardized testing. They believe (and not incorrectly) that there is a difference between "test preparation" and real learning, and that the whole educational process has been transformed into test preparation.

Second, many parents do not like that the Common Core standards have become the entirety of public school curricula throughout the states. They believe Common Core should be one aspect of a more rounded curriculum.

Third, many parents are upset that the Common Core standards are uniform to an extreme, so that they do not allow teachers to deviate for the benefit of any one of their students. (Although the guidance counselor at our middle school told me, somewhat confidentially, that they do not intend to place weight on the standardized test scores in assessing a student's eligibility for advanced placement classes, which would really violate Common Core policy. They will assess eligibility by their own observations of a student's preparedness for advanced classes).

Fourth, the math common core standard methods are ridiculous. When I learned math, we were taught to define and express our answer in the most precise and efficient terms. Common core demands, however, that a student's answer demonstrates their mental process in reaching an answer; therefore, the "correct" answer is the only answer which shows they understand the underlying concepts.

This requires longer and more inefficient expressions of an answer. By way of an example, my third grader essentially had a word problem which asked him (in a roundabout way) to determine the product of "9" and "7." So he wrote his answer as "9x7=63"). He was marked wrong. :? The correct answer: "9+9+9+9+9+9+9=63," because his answer needed to show that he understood that the product of 9x7 represents the sum of adding "9" seven times. :rofl:

Now, in my day, the teacher would have told you that your answer was needlessly complex, and the correct answer was more efficiently represented by the expression "9x7=63." But Common Core fears you might have guessed at this answer -- you MUST show mastery of the concepts in your answer, or it is deemed wrong, even if you are right. In my day, a teacher would have accepted that the answer "9x7=63" most likely shows understanding of the concepts and, if the student guessed, well, that's the way the world works some times!

Parents fear, thus, there is a disconnect between Common Core standards and real world standards. If you were in a job which required, among other things, expression of a mathematical equations, your boss would fire you for expressing "9x7" as "9+9+9+9+9+9+9."

Fifth, the language arts questions are often vague, or unclear, or include incorrect information. A recent reading assignment for my third grader stated that Neil Armstrong flew on Apollo 13, and another said that "John" Monroe was the fifth president of the United States.

So, in my estimation, that's the CC controversy in a nutshell.
I understand the intent but, to your point, in the real world your boss or client will want the answer and NOT an explanation of how you got that answer (unless you must defend it).

"What's the current price, Johnson?"

"$44/share. Up 5% from last week."

"Good! Carry on."

You all probably have read my posts about my delusional, racists, ass backwards, hard core democrat nieghbor who is a teacher yet her 10 yr old can barely read and solve simple math problems. She was railing against Common Core last week and she expressed the same issues you just outlined (although, she did blame Obama and the GOP for all of our woes. :roll: )

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:30 am
by Ibanez
JoltinJoe wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
The three of us said the same thing in 3 different posts. :lol: Having a 3rd grade make assumptions when he/she should focus on understanding the principles is asinine.
:lol:

Yes, except having been "schooled" now in Common Core so I can review my kids' homework, my explanation was longer and far less efficient than what you and CID said!
You took the JSO approach. :lol:

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:31 am
by Ibanez
CID1990 wrote:I don't understand why the questions have to be worded that way. They force you into assumptions, which is a bad idea outside of theoretical physics.
How are your children taught? Is it a local school or a US sponsored school?

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:17 am
by CAA Flagship
Fortunately I have not seen this.
What I have seen are questions that ask for the student to express the product of 9 and 7 as many ways as possible which would include:
9+9+9+9+9+9+9=63
7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7=63
9x7=63
7x9=63

Of course, if you wanted to be a smart ass, you could do something like:
(3^2)(4+3)=63
or
Roger Maris x Mickey Mantle = 63 :lol:

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:20 am
by 89Hen
JoltinJoe wrote:BTW, he's guessing that the answers the Common Core kings are seeking are 1,040 and 960. :?
I was thinking infinity and zero.

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:25 am
by YoUDeeMan
JoltinJoe wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
I've just now heard of Common Core. Isn't there some controversy surrounding this?
A lot of controversy.

First, many parents do not like that the Common Core standards are geared to provide "answers" to standardized testing. They believe (and not incorrectly) that there is a difference between "test preparation" and real learning, and that the whole educational process has been transformed into test preparation.

Second, many parents do not like that the Common Core standards have become the entirety of public school curricula throughout the states. They believe Common Core should be one aspect of a more rounded curriculum.

Third, many parents are upset that the Common Core standards are uniform to an extreme, so that they do not allow teachers to deviate for the benefit of any one of their students. (Although the guidance counselor at our middle school told me, somewhat confidentially, that they do not intend to place weight on the standardized test scores in assessing a student's eligibility for advanced placement classes, which would really violate Common Core policy. They will assess eligibility by their own observations of a student's preparedness for advanced classes).

Fourth, the math common core standard methods are ridiculous. When I learned math, we were taught to define and express our answer in the most precise and efficient terms. Common core demands, however, that a student's answer demonstrates their mental process in reaching an answer; therefore, the "correct" answer is the only answer which shows they understand the underlying concepts.

This requires longer and more inefficient expressions of an answer. By way of an example, my third grader essentially had a word problem which asked him (in a roundabout way) to determine the product of "9" and "7." So he wrote his answer as "9x7=63"). He was marked wrong. :? The correct answer: "9+9+9+9+9+9+9=63," because his answer needed to show that he understood that the product of 9x7 represents the sum of adding "9" seven times. :rofl:

Now, in my day, the teacher would have told you that your answer was needlessly complex, and the correct answer was more efficiently represented by the expression "9x7=63." But Common Core fears you might have guessed at this answer -- you MUST show mastery of the concepts in your answer, or it is deemed wrong, even if you are right. In my day, a teacher would have accepted that the answer "9x7=63" most likely shows understanding of the concepts and, if the student guessed, well, that's the way the world works some times!

Parents fear, thus, there is a disconnect between Common Core standards and real world standards. If you were in a job which required, among other things, expression of a mathematical equations, your boss would fire you for expressing "9x7" as "9+9+9+9+9+9+9."

Fifth, the language arts questions are often vague, or unclear, or include incorrect information. A recent reading assignment for my third grader stated that Neil Armstrong flew on Apollo 13, and another said that "John" Monroe was the fifth president of the United States.

So, in my estimation, that's the CC controversy in a nutshell.
Joe,

We have found our core common ground. :mrgreen:

Common Core is a disaster...and you can bet some folks with connections to Congress are making BIG money from this crap that was shoved down everyone's throats. If you want to teach to the lowest common denominator, Common Core is the way to go.

I've seen more errors on the homework questions...it is embarrassing. Who wrote that stuff? :suspicious:

Luckily, the teachers in my son's school are providing other options. My son's math teacher told the kids he had to hand out the recommended book, but don't bother using it. :lol:

The good thing is that some states are fighting back. Hopefully, Common Core will be disassembled in the near future.

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:42 am
by ALPHAGRIZ1
JoltinJoe wrote:This is from the my third grader's common core homework.
When authors write to inform, they use facts, reasons, and truths.
I guess the common core drafters have never read anything from D1B. :lol:

Seriously, though, here are some questions from his math homework last night.
"Holly's teacher says the school library has 1000 books. Holly thinks that the library may have 40 more books. What is the greatest number of books the library could have?"
Tom thinks the library may have 40 fewer books than 1000. What is the smallest number of books that the library could have?
:coffee:
What if nobody believes Holly because she's a lying whore? Heck just last week in the lunch room she said Tom had a 6" whopper but DBack corrected her and said it was well over 7.

Even Tom is calling her a liar and a whore but Tom estimates she's only done half of the 5th grade class not 3/4 like everyone else. (Tom is in that half) #knowhatimsayin

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:39 am
by Vidav
I am very happy my kids aren't doing this shit.

Re: Common Core

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:04 am
by ALPHAGRIZ1
Why do you want them to be uncommon?

Hater ;)