Thank you coal!

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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by ∞∞∞ »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:14 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:09 pm There it is, typical...condescend the people, not the ones taking advantage of people.

Doesn't matter what I say, won't change your mind, but I'll simply point out America will continue its march towards socialist policies because of the lack of respect towards its workers. It's only natural that they're going to use government to protect themselves.
Nice complete job of ignoring the two logical fallacies in your “argument” (and I use that word VERY loosely).
It's fine man, think whatever you want of my arguments.

It doesn't change the fact the real-world result has been a march towards socialist policies. If you want to win people over with your ideas, you're doing a helluva awful job at it. But hey, keep telling people they're lazy and their problems are their own doing...
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by AZGrizFan »

∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:19 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:14 pm

Nice complete job of ignoring the two logical fallacies in your “argument” (and I use that word VERY loosely).
It's fine man, think whatever you want of my arguments.

It doesn't change the fact the real-world result has been a march towards socialist policies. If you want to win people over with your ideas, you're doing a helluva awful job at it. But hey, keep telling people they're lazy and their problems are their own doing...
Ill take that as a tap out. Because deep down, you know I’m right and you don’t have a logical argument to even begin to make against it (which you ALSO do a lot around here....routinely ignore when called on something)...

But yes, it’s so much easier to take something you haven’t earned by using the government to leverage wealth redistribution. Really builds self worth. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Whatever floats your boat.
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Tap out? Is this a fight or argument? I'm not trying to convince you of anything. This is the internet, rarely does that work.

I can tell who grew up with the internet and who didn't when people think they've won an argument, like this is a competition. :lol:
Last edited by ∞∞∞ on Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by AZGrizFan »

∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:30 pm Tap out? Is this a fight or argument? I'm not trying to convince you of anything. This is the internet, rarely does that work.
Of course you’re not. That’s why you state everything as fact. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Thank you coal!

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AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:49 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:44 pm

There's no time left. We've lost too many years to the continuous use of fossil fuels instead of investing into renewables decades ago.

We're already at a dire point and a good leader should know that.
We aren’t anywhere near “dire”. There are DECADES of oil left. 7.14 TRILLION cubic feet of proven reserves of natural gas. 65-100 YEARS of coal left 1.15 TRILLION short tons....

GTFO of here with that “dire” bullshit. The “sky is falling” approach rarely works, except on the galactically STUPID.
Exactly. Its more than decades. Its HUNDREDS of years of fossil fuel left. Absolutely ZERO reason not to continue to use it for many decades more. :nod:
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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:50 pm No one gives a sh*t how much fossil fuel is left; climate change has become a life and death situation yesterday. The sky is falling because it literally is...people are dying all over the world, more extreme climate events, mass extinctions, infrastructure continually damaged, etc.

Time to get off of fossil fuels now.
:dunce: :dunce: :dunce: Total alarmist bullshit.. :lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by ∞∞∞ »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:32 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:30 pm Tap out? Is this a fight or argument? I'm not trying to convince you of anything. This is the internet, rarely does that work.
Of course you’re not. That’s why you state everything as fact. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hey man, when you're old and America is unrecognizable from your youth, don't say I didn't warn you. When the system treats people well, the people will stick with the system. When it doesn't, humanity's natural instinct to band together takes over.

And to your prior point, self-worth is a relative term.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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What green new deal misses is as much as what it advocates.

An intermediate step of substituting natural gas for coal and re-invigorating nuclear energy is the step that would greatly improve the environment without even more economic disruption.

Also, global air pollution is generated 85+% off shore, primarily China and India whose use of fossil fuels is not nearly as efficient as it is in say the USA and Germany.

The much ballyhooed Paris accords punish countries that have already invested in lessening pollution and let those where the largest gains can be made most quickly and economically off the hook.

Trump took us out of these bogus accords and still managed to surpass the USA’s goals by the end of his term.

The Green New Deal and Paris Accords are about things other than improving the environment.


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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:45 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:32 pm

Of course you’re not. That’s why you state everything as fact. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hey man, when you're old and America is unrecognizable from your youth, don't say I didn't warn you. When the system treats people well, the people will stick with the system. When it doesn't, humanity's natural instinct to band together takes over.

And to your prior point, self-worth is a relative term.
America is already unrecognizable from my youth. In some good ways, in some bad ways. Nobody expects it to stay stagnant. The point you keep missing is that they system has RARELY treated people well (hence my history lesson on Rockefeller, Carnige, the Copper Kings, etc). Nor is government overrreach a new thing (read a book or two on Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, etc.). But desiring and developing a system where the majority who add nothing to the equation can dictate to the minority who do, is NOT a recipe for success. That’s been proven time and time again (again, it’s history, something you’ve proven to not have a great grasp of).

I know, it just hasn’t been done RIGHT, amirite?

And with that, I am going to extract myself from this fruitless conversation. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by HI54UNI »

SDHornet wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:13 pm
HI54UNI wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:39 am What a crazy week it was. We operate in the Southwest Power Pool (SPP) energy market. SPP covers 14 states from North Dakota to the Texas panhandle. On a typical day prices for energy would be maybe 2-2.5 cents per kWh. On a hot day or cold day that might jump up to an average of 5-6 cents per kWh. On a typical day we sell about 1.0-1.2 million kWh to our members. So on a normal day it costs us $25,000 +/- to meet our needs. On a hot or cold day we could be looking at $72,000 for one day. We have ownership in various generation facilities that we sell to the market and get credit back. Basically the two offset each other every day.

On Saturday, February 13 the market started going crazy. Average prices each day and our cost at 1.2 million kWh per day:

13th - $0.137/kWh $164,712
14th - $0.294/kWh $352,932
15th - $2.994/kWh $3,593,538
16th - $2.756/kWh $3,307,092
17th - $2.219/kWh $2,663,352
18th - $3.633/kWh $4,360,130
19th - $1.114/kWh $1,336,393

So instead of spending between $175,000 - $500,000 like we normally might during this period we spent $15,778,000 to supply our members with power. Fortunately we have sufficient generation to offset this cost in the market. But there are a lot of utilities that don't have sufficient generation and rely on the market that are going to take a huge financial hit from this. This is also what happened to the customers of Griddy - they were essentially playing in the market and got burnt badly.

In addition to our regular baseload generation SPP called on all of our emergency backup diesel generation to run as well. We did our part to support the SPP grid. We had members run well over 100 hours during this period for plants that really aren't designed to be pushed that hard. For much of this crisis we were generating over 200% of our needs - in other words we were covering all of our electrical load from our members plus somebody else's by pushing surplus back onto the grid. There were times where we were covering 270%. On Tuesday morning SPP had to implement rolling blackouts over the 14 state territory. We weren't hit with any blackouts because we were actually generating 215% of our load at the time the blackouts were implemented. Disconnecting us would have actually made things worse.

One of our backup plants burns 2500 gallons of fuel an hour. They had to have a tanker truck delivering fuel every 3 hours. 42 semi loads delivered during this period. Over $600,000 in diesel fuel for just that one plant. I haven't even had time to add up all the others yet. I'm guessing the fuel bill will be over $2 million. Fortunately we will get reimbursed from the market for this.

A lot of regulators, politicians, and utilities are in CYA mode right now to try and avoid blame. There are going to be investigations and a lot of hand wringing over this. I recieved one call from the chair of our state regulatory commission and 3 calls from another state commissioner. Fortunately with how we performed we look pretty good. But had some of our stuff not worked it could have been ugly real fast. Sad thing is nothing will really change to make things better. Usually the regulators have good intentions but tend to make things worse.

I'm already starting to see talk of bailouts for utilities that didn't have adequate generation in place or limiting the amount of "profit" that some generators were able to make. Pisses me off that we have made investments at a cost to our rate payers to avoid this problem and now somebody that made poor decisions is going to get a bailout.
Was figuring you'd have an explanation as to how you were impacted. Thanks for this, very informative.

2.5k of diesel will supply our backup generator systems at one of our large pump stations (50+MGD) for about 3 days. Amazing that you guys burn through that in an hour. :shock:

And on your past paragraph, yeah, socialism sucks. :coffee:
I'm sure this generator is much larger than what you have. This unit cranks out 23 MW at full load. It was completely powering a city of over 8,000 people plus actually pushing some back on to the grid. The majority of our units burn about 125 gallons of fuel per hour and produce about 1.8 MW. That's enough to power a town of about 800 people. All total we have about 125 MW from 37 different units ranging in size from 0.4 MW to 23 MW.
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:06 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:45 pm

Hey man, when you're old and America is unrecognizable from your youth, don't say I didn't warn you. When the system treats people well, the people will stick with the system. When it doesn't, humanity's natural instinct to band together takes over.

And to your prior point, self-worth is a relative term.
America is already unrecognizable from my youth. In some good ways, in some bad ways. Nobody expects it to stay stagnant. The point you keep missing is that they system has RARELY treated people well (hence my history lesson on Rockefeller, Carnige, the Copper Kings, etc). Nor is government overrreach a new thing (read a book or two on Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, etc.). But desiring and developing a system where the majority who add nothing to the equation can dictate to the minority who do, is NOT a recipe for success. That’s been proven time and time again (again, it’s history, something you’ve proven to not have a great grasp of).

I know, it just hasn’t been done RIGHT, amirite?

And with that, I am going to extract myself from this fruitless conversation. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:
That’s probably be a good idea because this you’re basically arguing in support of a stumbling oligarchy. The Butte copper kings would be impressed. :lol:
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by kalm »

∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:45 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:32 pm

Of course you’re not. That’s why you state everything as fact. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hey man, when you're old and America is unrecognizable from your youth, don't say I didn't warn you. When the system treats people well, the people will stick with the system. When it doesn't, humanity's natural instinct to band together takes over.

And to your prior point, self-worth is a relative term.
Your arguments are like reading a Teddy Roosevelt speech on the Square Deal or Monopolies.

Great work here, kid! :notworthy:
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by kalm »

LeadBolt wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:00 pm What green new deal misses is as much as what it advocates.

An intermediate step of substituting natural gas for coal and re-invigorating nuclear energy is the step that would greatly improve the environment without even more economic disruption.

Also, global air pollution is generated 85+% off shore, primarily China and India whose use of fossil fuels is not nearly as efficient as it is in say the USA and Germany.

The much ballyhooed Paris accords punish countries that have already invested in lessening pollution and let those where the largest gains can be made most quickly and economically off the hook.

Trump took us out of these bogus accords and still managed to surpass the USA’s goals by the end of his term.

The Green New Deal and Paris Accords are about things other than improving the environment.


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The progressives are showing the Dem establishment how to negotiate (something the Republicans own them on). If a GND gets passed, it will have been negotiated down to more moderate reforms. We will end up with a measured transition away from fossil fuel dominance of direct and indirect subsidies. The degrees depend on the severity of threat, which, if you live in Texas right now looks pretty damn real.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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kalm wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:47 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:06 pm

America is already unrecognizable from my youth. In some good ways, in some bad ways. Nobody expects it to stay stagnant. The point you keep missing is that they system has RARELY treated people well (hence my history lesson on Rockefeller, Carnige, the Copper Kings, etc). Nor is government overrreach a new thing (read a book or two on Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, etc.). But desiring and developing a system where the majority who add nothing to the equation can dictate to the minority who do, is NOT a recipe for success. That’s been proven time and time again (again, it’s history, something you’ve proven to not have a great grasp of).

I know, it just hasn’t been done RIGHT, amirite?

And with that, I am going to extract myself from this fruitless conversation. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:
That’s probably be a good idea because this you’re basically arguing in support of a stumbling oligarchy. The Butte copper kings would be impressed. :lol:
don't tell me you don't know history either? :suspicious: :suspicious:
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:43 am
kalm wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:47 am

That’s probably be a good idea because this you’re basically arguing in support of a stumbling oligarchy. The Butte copper kings would be impressed. :lol:
don't tell me you don't know history either? :suspicious: :suspicious:
I’ve golfed at the Old Works, skied at Discovery Basin, stayed at the Marcus Daly and driven around Walkerville. Does that count?

:mrgreen:
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:53 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:43 am

don't tell me you don't know history either? :suspicious: :suspicious:
I’ve golfed at the Old Works, skied at Discovery Basin, stayed at the Marcus Daly and driven around Walkerville. Does that count?

:mrgreen:
well then you're more educated than 95% of those Anaconda pukes who blindly pull the D lever come election time... :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:
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Re: Thank you coal!

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∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:45 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:32 pm

Of course you’re not. That’s why you state everything as fact. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hey man, when you're old and America is unrecognizable from your youth, don't say I didn't warn you. When the system treats people well, the people will stick with the system. When it doesn't, humanity's natural instinct to band together takes over.

And to your prior point, self-worth is a relative term.
That is exactly what the MAGAts did and look where it's gotten them.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:23 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:45 pm

Hey man, when you're old and America is unrecognizable from your youth, don't say I didn't warn you. When the system treats people well, the people will stick with the system. When it doesn't, humanity's natural instinct to band together takes over.

And to your prior point, self-worth is a relative term.
That is exactly what the MAGAts did and look where it's gotten them.
:nod:

Rapid change/crisis periods do that whether it results in the Russian Revolution in or Franco’s Spain.
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:28 am
UNI88 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:23 am
That is exactly what the MAGAts did and look where it's gotten them.
:nod:

Rapid change/crisis periods do that whether it results in the Russian Revolution in or Franco’s Spain.
We could be on the cusp of either. Do we go down the path of BDK's Falangists or Trip's Bolsheviks? :D
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:37 am
kalm wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:28 am

:nod:

Rapid change/crisis periods do that whether it results in the Russian Revolution in or Franco’s Spain.
We could be on the cusp of either. Do we go down the path of BDK's Falangists or Trip's Bolsheviks? :D
Neither.

We start down the path of the Kalmyks enjoying our chess and Buddhism, and eventually evolving to pure kalmunism.

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Re: Thank you coal!

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“Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.” Aristotle

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by Winterborn »

Col Hogan wrote:Which type is kalmunism???

http://www.utopiaanddystopia.com/utopia ... n-society/
The one where everyone fishes but no fish are caught. Plus getting lost at opportune times.
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Re: Thank you coal!

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:57 pm
Col Hogan wrote:Which type is kalmunism???

http://www.utopiaanddystopia.com/utopia ... n-society/
The one where everyone fishes but no fish are caught. Plus getting lost at opportune times.
One week to the WA lowland lakes spring opener. Hitting up Lake Never Freezes tomorrow.

And I’ve never been lost. :coffee:
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Re: Thank you coal!

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kalm wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:37 pm
Winterborn wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:57 pm The one where everyone fishes but no fish are caught. Plus getting lost at opportune times.
One week to the WA lowland lakes spring opener. Hitting up Lake Never Freezes tomorrow.

And I’ve never been lost. :coffee:
I to have never been lost. Now if you ask my former passengers, they will lie to you and say that I have. :lol: It is all a matter of perspective. :coffee:

And Lake Never Freezes sounds like a ecological disaster from the local dumping their antifreeze in it for disposal.
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Re: Thank you coal!

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Porsche says its synthetic fuel will make internal combustion as clean as EVs
In a recent interview with Evo magazine, Porsche VP of Motorsport and GT cars, Dr. Frank Walliser, says that synthetic fuels, also called eFuels, can reduce the carbon dioxide emissions of existing ICE cars by as much as 85 percent. And, he says, when you account for the wheel-to-well impact of manufacturing the EV, it's a wash.
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