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grizzaholic wrote:What do you got against the second amendment?

Cap'n Cat wrote:

grizzaholic wrote:What do you got against the second amendment?

What did I say in the post, Space Ghost? Did I say anything about having something against the Amendment?

travelinman67 wrote:You left out Apple Pie and Baseball, Cap...

TwinTownBisonFan wrote::cracks knuckles:

time to fisk this

1. Genocide against the native peoples.
clearly not the #1 sin... clearly. I take a contrary view of this - while a lot of sins were committed in our relations with the native peoples... it was in essence the conquering of one people by another... which had happened in history thousands of times before. I think a lot of the judgment of it applies post-modern values to decisions of the past... frequently a fools errand. That said - the trail of tears, smallpox blankets, the Wauchita Valley incident and Wounded Knee are inexcusable.

2. Slavery (blacks and indentured servants from the British Isles)
THIS IS THE #1 SIN - mostly because American slavery was a particularly barbaric institution, and was continued longer than almost anywhere else in the world... but truly the most repugnant because it most directly conflicted the principles of our founding.

3. Jim Crow: Reconstruction to present
I'll quibble only to say that Jim Crow died in de jure in 1964... and petered out in to the 70's and 80's. There are still social repercussions... but in law... it's dead. While it was in effect... yes, a sin.

4. Cold War proxy wars worldwide
The short-sighted "enemy of my enemy" thinking was a mistake... the idea of "containment" made sense when opposed to notion of a third world war, which is how it was viewed.

5. Firebombing of Dresden,Tokyo, Berlin
I just flat disagree here. Total war is total war. the entirety of German and Japanese society were mobilized as a tool of war... those were legitimate targets.

6. Using two atomic bombs
If this wasn't on the list "annihilating 2 million Japanese at the expense of 250,000 Americans" would be. While it was regrettable, it was the right decision.

7. Backing Britain in the Falklands War
Really? Really?

8. Ignoring murder/genocide of Jews/others in 30's 40's
An isolationist non-superpower (but a Great Power) interfering in another nations domestic affairs just wasn't done pre WWII... it's revisionism to suggest that the US was acting improperly... when we upped the number of Jewish immigrants admitted for many years - and looked the other way to their sneaking in to the country because it was the right thing to do...

9. Backing of killer despots and cruel military juntas in the name of liberty.
The "enemy of my enemy" policy was the ultimate in short-sighted policy choices

10. Destruction/death wrought in Vietnam
The problem with Vietnam was we never decided to either shit or get off the pot.

11. First, fighting, then losing The Cold War
zuh?

12. The Spanish-American and Mexican Wars
neither was necessary... nor inevitable... that's for sure.

13. The Conservative (Bowel) Movement
meh... the second Iraq war that grew out of neoconservatism however could be a nominee for this list.

notable omissions:
internment of American citizens due to their nationality in WWII
McCarthyism
Gitmo... i think history would put this on the list.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote::cracks knuckles:

time to fisk this

1. Genocide against the native peoples.
clearly not the #1 sin... clearly. I take a contrary view of this - while a lot of sins were committed in our relations with the native peoples... it was in essence the conquering of one people by another... which had happened in history thousands of times before. I think a lot of the judgment of it applies post-modern values to decisions of the past... frequently a fools errand. That said - the trail of tears, smallpox blankets, the Wauchita Valley incident and Wounded Knee are inexcusable.

2. Slavery (blacks and indentured servants from the British Isles)
THIS IS THE #1 SIN - mostly because American slavery was a particularly barbaric institution, and was continued longer than almost anywhere else in the world... but truly the most repugnant because it most directly conflicted the principles of our founding.

3. Jim Crow: Reconstruction to present
I'll quibble only to say that Jim Crow died in de jure in 1964... and petered out in to the 70's and 80's. There are still social repercussions... but in law... it's dead. While it was in effect... yes, a sin.

4. Cold War proxy wars worldwide
The short-sighted "enemy of my enemy" thinking was a mistake... the idea of "containment" made sense when opposed to notion of a third world war, which is how it was viewed.

5. Firebombing of Dresden,Tokyo, Berlin
I just flat disagree here. Total war is total war. the entirety of German and Japanese society were mobilized as a tool of war... those were legitimate targets.

6. Using two atomic bombs
If this wasn't on the list "annihilating 2 million Japanese at the expense of 250,000 Americans" would be. While it was regrettable, it was the right decision.

7. Backing Britain in the Falklands War
Really? Really?

8. Ignoring murder/genocide of Jews/others in 30's 40's
An isolationist non-superpower (but a Great Power) interfering in another nations domestic affairs just wasn't done pre WWII... it's revisionism to suggest that the US was acting improperly... when we upped the number of Jewish immigrants admitted for many years - and looked the other way to their sneaking in to the country because it was the right thing to do...

9. Backing of killer despots and cruel military juntas in the name of liberty.
The "enemy of my enemy" policy was the ultimate in short-sighted policy choices

10. Destruction/death wrought in Vietnam
The problem with Vietnam was we never decided to either shit or get off the pot.

11. First, fighting, then losing The Cold War
zuh?

12. The Spanish-American and Mexican Wars
neither was necessary... nor inevitable... that's for sure.

13. The Conservative (Bowel) Movement
meh... the second Iraq war that grew out of neoconservatism however could be a nominee for this list.

notable omissions:
internment of American citizens due to their nationality in WWII
McCarthyism
Gitmo... i think history would put this on the list.

D1B wrote:Thread and post of the year nomination for the Cap'n.

I will add:

Hollywood/Los Angeles - A horrible modern scourge that created 10 generations of idiots, lazy fukcs and diabetics. We'll be paying dearly for Hollywood for thousands of years.

Pwns wrote:How about a war against a legal secession that resulted in the deaths of 620,000 people including tens of thousands of civilians, and giving birth to the dangerous and powerful monstrosity known as the federal government? That war has still caused more death than both Vietnam and Iraq even though it was fought with fairly unsophistocated weaponry.

Pwns wrote:How about a war against a legal secession that resulted in the deaths of 620,000 people including tens of thousands of civilians, and giving birth to the dangerous and powerful monstrosity known as the federal government? That war has still caused more death than both Vietnam and Iraq even though it was fought with fairly unsophistocated weaponry.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:travel - my qualm with gitmo isn't that it's a prison... it's the government rejecting their obligations under the geneva convention for the sake of expedience... prisoners of war are a legitimate thing, and they are granted rights under geneva.

yes, i realize our enemies in this struggle are not inclined to provide the same rights to our citizens and/or soldiers... however, i believe that such a distinction is the reason we are right, and they are wrong.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote::cracks knuckles:

time to fisk this

1. Genocide against the native peoples.
clearly not the #1 sin... clearly. I take a contrary view of this - while a lot of sins were committed in our relations with the native peoples... it was in essence the conquering of one people by another... which had happened in history thousands of times before. I think a lot of the judgment of it applies post-modern values to decisions of the past... frequently a fools errand. That said - the trail of tears, smallpox blankets, the Wauchita Valley incident and Wounded Knee are inexcusable.

Cap'n Cat wrote:According to the all-seeing, all-knowing Cap'n Cat.


1. Genocide against the native peoples.

2. Slavery (blacks and indentured servants from the British Isles)

3. Jim Crow: Reconstruction to present

4. Cold War proxy wars worldwide

5. Firebombing of Dresden,Tokyo, Berlin

6. Using two atomic bombs

7. Backing Britain in the Falklands War

8. Ignoring murder/genocide of Jews/others in 30's 40's

9. Backing of killer despots and cruel military juntas in the name of liberty.

10. Destruction/death wrought in Vietnam

11. First, fighting, then losing The Cold War

12. The Spanish-American and Mexican Wars

13. The Conservative (Bowel) Movement

Dishonorable mention: The Reagan presidency, Pat Robertson, The Drug "War", tax-exempt status of churches, Rush Limbaugh, Dubya, National Right To Life, 2008 world economic collapse, Ann Coulter, The NRA and misinterpretation of Amendment 2, smoking, American Gladiators, Fred Thompson, Karl Rove and Jimmy Swaggart.






What are your, ahem, "favorite" American shining moments on the world stage?


If we were starting a 13 Greatest Accomplishments by America, many of these same events would be on MY list.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

Pwns wrote:How about a war against a legal secession that resulted in the deaths of 620,000 people including tens of thousands of civilians, and giving birth to the dangerous and powerful monstrosity known as the federal government? That war has still caused more death than both Vietnam and Iraq even though it was fought with fairly unsophistocated weaponry.

i believe the term is squashing a rebellion.

ASUMountaineer wrote:

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
i believe the term is squashing a rebellion.

Except it was legal to seceed and Lincoln invaded the South, which was no longer part of the USA. That's not squashing a rebellion, that invasion.

UNI88 wrote:

ASUMountaineer wrote:
Except it was legal to seceed and Lincoln invaded the South, which was no longer part of the USA. That's not squashing a rebellion, that invasion.

Unless you are of the opinion that Fort Sumter was U.S. Government property and the CSA was the initial aggressor by invading Northern territory.

And state's rights advocates should consider the hypocrisy of the South demanding that the federal government not interfere in their decision to legalize slavery while using that same federal government to require citizens of Northern states to drop everything and hunt down escaped slaves for return to their "owners".