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This is why Religion and Government need to be as far apart as possible...
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http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/ ... m-religion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

well the grand mufti poo bah would instantly get a LARGE following among liberals in the US if he added "except for christianity" to his proposal

plenty of outlets here already self-censor criticism of islam so they dont have far to leap there anyway

CID1990 wrote:well the grand mufti poo bah would instantly get a LARGE following among liberals in the US if he added "except for christianity" to his proposal

plenty of outlets here already self-censor criticism of islam so they dont have far to leap there anyway

Well, this liberal for one would prefer that people be judged by their actions and what they say publicly.

If you're a Christian and you aren't bombing abortion clinics or trying to deny gays marriage licenses or teach creationism in public schools, I don't really care.

And if you're a Muslin and aren't blowing up buildings or beheading people, that's cool too.

CID1990 wrote:well the grand mufti poo bah would instantly get a LARGE following among liberals in the US if he added "except for christianity" to his proposal

plenty of outlets here already self-censor criticism of islam so they dont have far to leap there anyway

Not really. Liberals tend to not care for religious conservatives.

CID1990 wrote:well the grand mufti poo bah would instantly get a LARGE following among liberals in the US if he added "except for christianity" to his proposal

plenty of outlets here already self-censor criticism of islam so they dont have far to leap there anyway

I'm not sure I understand if you're trying to make a point..?
Explain it to me like I was 5 years old

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote:well the grand mufti poo bah would instantly get a LARGE following among liberals in the US if he added "except for christianity" to his proposal

plenty of outlets here already self-censor criticism of islam so they dont have far to leap there anyway

I'm not sure I understand if you're trying to make a point..?
Explain it to me like I was 5 years old

It isnt a refutation of your point that government and religion should be separate - its just an observation - think of it as a houndawg nonsequitur, only based in fact

for example - the NYT and other "reputable" media outlets have on several occasions made it clear they would not publish photos that would offend muslims

yet they have no problem doing it to other religions - christianity being a prime target - its the rioter's veto

enter into a discussion on religion with a typical liberal - when you criticize christianity you get nods. when you criticize islam you get the "yes, but christianity...." canards

and lets not forget the calls to make portrayals of moohammed into hate crimes - not all of the people behind those are muslims

so I believe that Mr Mufti's call would have a more sympathetic reception if he applied it only to criticisms of islam (and hinduism and buddhism to provide cover)

CID1990 wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
I'm not sure I understand if you're trying to make a point..?
Explain it to me like I was 5 years old

It isnt a refutation of your point that government and religion should be separate - its just an observation - think of it as a houndawg nonsequitur, only based in fact

for example - the NYT and other "reputable" media outlets have on several occasions made it clear they would not publish photos that would offend muslims

yet they have no problem doing it to other religions - christianity being a prime target - its the rioter's veto

enter into a discussion on religion with a typical liberal - when you criticize christianity you get nods. when you criticize islam you get the "yes, but christianity...." canards

and lets not forget the calls to make portrayals of moohammed into hate crimes - not all of the people behind those are muslims

so I believe that Mr Mufti's call would have a more sympathetic reception if he applied it only to criticisms of islam (and hinduism and buddhism to provide cover)

CID1990 wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
I'm not sure I understand if you're trying to make a point..?
Explain it to me like I was 5 years old

It isnt a refutation of your point that government and religion should be separate - its just an observation - think of it as a houndawg nonsequitur, only based in fact

for example - the NYT and other "reputable" media outlets have on several occasions made it clear they would not publish photos that would offend muslims

yet they have no problem doing it to other religions - christianity being a prime target - its the rioter's veto

enter into a discussion on religion with a typical liberal - when you criticize christianity you get nods. when you criticize islam you get the "yes, but christianity...." canards

and lets not forget the calls to make portrayals of moohammed into hate crimes - not all of the people behind those are muslims

so I believe that Mr Mufti's call would have a more sympathetic reception if he applied it only to criticisms of islam (and hinduism and buddhism to provide cover)

Except all those typical liberals who are christians.

CID1990 wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
I'm not sure I understand if you're trying to make a point..?
Explain it to me like I was 5 years old

It isnt a refutation of your point that government and religion should be separate - its just an observation - think of it as a houndawg nonsequitur, only based in fact

for example - the NYT and other "reputable" media outlets have on several occasions made it clear they would not publish photos that would offend muslims

yet they have no problem doing it to other religions - christianity being a prime target - its the rioter's veto

enter into a discussion on religion with a typical liberal - when you criticize christianity you get nods. when you criticize islam you get the "yes, but christianity...." canards

and lets not forget the calls to make portrayals of moohammed into hate crimes - not all of the people behind those are muslims

so I believe that Mr Mufti's call would have a more sympathetic reception if he applied it only to criticisms of islam (and hinduism and buddhism to provide cover)

Agreed,
The article I'm referencing should read: "Islamic leaders ask world to stop making fun of Islam"
otherwise we'll keep killing people who make fun of Islam



Meanwhile Christian apologists line up to show their emotional bruises
meanies keep making fun of Jesus and televangelists

AZGrizFan wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
It isnt a refutation of your point that government and religion should be separate - its just an observation - think of it as a houndawg nonsequitur, only based in fact

for example - the NYT and other "reputable" media outlets have on several occasions made it clear they would not publish photos that would offend muslims

yet they have no problem doing it to other religions - christianity being a prime target - its the rioter's veto

enter into a discussion on religion with a typical liberal - when you criticize christianity you get nods. when you criticize islam you get the "yes, but christianity...." canards

and lets not forget the calls to make portrayals of moohammed into hate crimes - not all of the people behind those are muslims

so I believe that Mr Mufti's call would have a more sympathetic reception if he applied it only to criticisms of islam (and hinduism and buddhism to provide cover)

Res ipsa loquitor.

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
It isnt a refutation of your point that government and religion should be separate - its just an observation - think of it as a houndawg nonsequitur, only based in fact

for example - the NYT and other "reputable" media outlets have on several occasions made it clear they would not publish photos that would offend muslims

yet they have no problem doing it to other religions - christianity being a prime target - its the rioter's veto

enter into a discussion on religion with a typical liberal - when you criticize christianity you get nods. when you criticize islam you get the "yes, but christianity...." canards

and lets not forget the calls to make portrayals of moohammed into hate crimes - not all of the people behind those are muslims

so I believe that Mr Mufti's call would have a more sympathetic reception if he applied it only to criticisms of islam (and hinduism and buddhism to provide cover)

Agreed,
The article I'm referencing should read: "Islamic leaders ask world to stop making fun of Islam"
otherwise we'll keep killing people who make fun of Islam



Meanwhile Christian apologists line up to show their emotional bruises
meanies keep making fun of Jesus and televangelists

im ok with making fun of all of them equally - i think its healthy

but there are a lot of people who would chastize you for calling islam what it is, and those same people will giggle their asses off at a showing of Book of Mormon (mainly because theres no danger mormons are going to fly into a bloody rage and start whacking people)

its cowardice and hypocrisy all rolled into one - we need a word for it

CID1990 wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
Agreed,
The article I'm referencing should read: "Islamic leaders ask world to stop making fun of Islam"
otherwise we'll keep killing people who make fun of Islam



Meanwhile Christian apologists line up to show their emotional bruises
meanies keep making fun of Jesus and televangelists

im ok with making fun of all of them equally - i think its healthy

but there are a lot of people who would chastize you for calling islam what it is, and those same people will giggle their asses off at a showing of Book of Mormon (mainly because theres no danger mormons are going to fly into a bloody rage and start whacking people)

its cowardice and hypocrisy all rolled into one - we need a word for it

You're preaching to the choir here fella
If you're interested in my feeling on Islam just read some Sam Harris on Islam
I'm about 95% in agreement with him there

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46nh8_BK7ok[/youtube]


THER IS NO BETTER 10 minutes on ISLAM than this youtube ^ clip....

I don't think it's that liberals are afraid of getting their heads blown off by a Muslim fundamentalists as much as it is "we can't criticize minority groups or else we're just like the jingoistic and xenophobic right wingers".

It's the same reason feminists complain about the supposed "objectification" and "sexualization" of women everywhere in media and pop culture…but don't ever mention anything about rap music. No, that would be racist.

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
im ok with making fun of all of them equally - i think its healthy

but there are a lot of people who would chastize you for calling islam what it is, and those same people will giggle their asses off at a showing of Book of Mormon (mainly because theres no danger mormons are going to fly into a bloody rage and start whacking people)

its cowardice and hypocrisy all rolled into one - we need a word for it

You're preaching to the choir here fella
If you're interested in my feeling on Islam just read some Sam Harris on Islam
I'm about 95% in agreement with him there

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46nh8_BK7ok[/youtube]


THER IS NO BETTER 10 minutes on ISLAM than this youtube ^ clip....

i know

i arrived at what i think is a fairly accurate opinion of islam a long time ago - and of course my opinion like most others is fairly anecdotal (though reinforced by some time I have spent in places where apostasy can get you whacked by the government)

so i rarely get into arguments about islam with anyone - or any other religion for that matter - you cannot argue against faith with any amount of success

what CHAPS MY ASS to no end is people who are obviously fairly secular themselves - defending islam - but those same people are first in line to denigrate christians. thats not logic driven at all

i think the previous post may be on to something.... it may not be about religion at all- but instead about race

CID1990 wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
You're preaching to the choir here fella
If you're interested in my feeling on Islam just read some Sam Harris on Islam
I'm about 95% in agreement with him there

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46nh8_BK7ok[/youtube]


THER IS NO BETTER 10 minutes on ISLAM than this youtube ^ clip....

i know

i arrived at what i think is a fairly accurate opinion of islam a long time ago - and of course my opinion like most others is fairly anecdotal (though reinforced by some time I have spent in places where apostasy can get you whacked by the government)

so i rarely get into arguments about islam with anyone - or any other religion for that matter - you cannot argue against faith with any amount of success

what CHAPS MY ASS to no end is people who are obviously fairly secular themselves - defending islam - but those same people are first in line to denigrate christians. thats not logic driven at all

i think the previous post may be on to something.... it may not be about religion at all- but instead about race

I'm sure some of that exists but I think Pwns is closer. Speaking personally, I don't defend Islam so much as ridicule the jingoistic and often irrational over-reaction to Islam. We are supposed to be better than that and at times this over-reaction has led to costly mistakes and immense hypocrisy.

Islam is bad enough without embellishing it's threat.

Mohammed professed to derive from Heaven, and has inserted in the Koran, not only religious doctrines, but political maxims, civil and criminal laws, and theories of science. The Gospel, on the contrary, speaks only of the general relations of men to God and to each other, beyond which it inculcates and imposes no point of faith. This alone, besides a thousand other reasons, would suffice to prove that the former of these religions will never long predominate in a cultivated and democratic age, while the latter is destined to retain its sway at these as at all other periods.

From HOW RELIGION IN THE UNITED STATES AVAILS ITSELF OF DEMOCRATIC TENDENCIES by Alexis de Tocqueville .
Islam and Christianity are entirely different animals. You really should not use something associated with Islam as "proof" of ANYTHING pertaining to religion in general. And yes, I really am an agnostic. But it's just not valid to use Islam to draw general inferences about religion.

kalm wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
i know

i arrived at what i think is a fairly accurate opinion of islam a long time ago - and of course my opinion like most others is fairly anecdotal (though reinforced by some time I have spent in places where apostasy can get you whacked by the government)

so i rarely get into arguments about islam with anyone - or any other religion for that matter - you cannot argue against faith with any amount of success

what CHAPS MY ASS to no end is people who are obviously fairly secular themselves - defending islam - but those same people are first in line to denigrate christians. thats not logic driven at all

i think the previous post may be on to something.... it may not be about religion at all- but instead about race

I'm sure some of that exists but I think Pwns is closer. Speaking personally, I don't defend Islam so much as ridicule the jingoistic and often irrational over-reaction to Islam. We are supposed to be better than that and at times this over-reaction has led to costly mistakes and immense hypocrisy.

Islam is bad enough without embellishing it's threat.

exactly what about the threat of islam is being embellished?

hell, if someone in 2000 had showed me DHS and TSA I probably would have taken to marching down the street with a sandwich board like the rest of the nuts

CID1990 wrote:

kalm wrote:
I'm sure some of that exists but I think Pwns is closer. Speaking personally, I don't defend Islam so much as ridicule the jingoistic and often irrational over-reaction to Islam. We are supposed to be better than that and at times this over-reaction has led to costly mistakes and immense hypocrisy.

Islam is bad enough without embellishing it's threat.

exactly what about the threat of islam is being embellished?

hell, if someone in 2000 had showed me DHS and TSA I probably would have taken to marching down the street with a sandwich board like the rest of the nuts

It's most unbecoming of you to play dumb, CID.

CID1990 wrote:

kalm wrote:
I'm sure some of that exists but I think Pwns is closer. Speaking personally, I don't defend Islam so much as ridicule the jingoistic and often irrational over-reaction to Islam. We are supposed to be better than that and at times this over-reaction has led to costly mistakes and immense hypocrisy.

Islam is bad enough without embellishing it's threat.

exactly what about the threat of islam is being embellished?

hell, if someone in 2000 had showed me DHS and TSA I probably would have taken to marching down the street with a sandwich board like the rest of the nuts

The entire globe has adjusted its safety standards
across the board and in almost every venue and capacity
and meanwhile the American Liberal can't figure out what all the fuss is about

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
exactly what about the threat of islam is being embellished?

hell, if someone in 2000 had showed me DHS and TSA I probably would have taken to marching down the street with a sandwich board like the rest of the nuts

The entire globe has adjusted its safety standards
across the board and in almost every venue and capacity
and meanwhile the American Liberal can't figure out what all the fuss is about

So you support our efforts in Iraq and the middle east in general, and believe we should bomb Iran?

kalm wrote:

Chizzang wrote:

The entire globe has adjusted its safety standards
across the board and in almost every venue and capacity
and meanwhile the American Liberal can't figure out what all the fuss is about

So you support our efforts in Iraq and the middle east in general, and believe we should bomb Iran?

Who said that..?
I'm talking about understanding Islam for what it is

Chizzang wrote:

kalm wrote:
So you support our efforts in Iraq and the middle east in general, and believe we should bomb Iran?

Who said that..?
I'm talking about understanding Islam for what it is

Listen. I'm only willing to accept you, Sam Harris, and CID playing dumb one at a time.

Figure your shit out.

kalm wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
Who said that..?
I'm talking about understanding Islam for what it is

Listen. I'm only willing to accept you, Sam Harris, and CID playing dumb one at a time.

Figure your shit out.

So we expedited the GLOBAL change in security practices because of the Amish..?
Nope, the world changed ENTIRELY because of the threat of Islam
THE WHOLE WORLD

And yet we cannot speak about Islam like adults because we might hurt somebody's feelings
Really..? This is where I depart from the Liberal mindset

Chizzang wrote:

kalm wrote:
Listen. I'm only willing to accept you, Sam Harris, and CID playing dumb one at a time.

Figure your shit out.

And yet we cannot speak about Islam like adults because we might hurt somebody's feelings
Really..? This is where I depart from the Liberal mindset

Wait. Who said that?

You should probably try approaching it from a rational standpoint versus an ideological one.

Islam is troubling. We should keep an eye on those guys.

Defense of irrational jingoistic backlash is troubling too. Should probably keep an eye on them as well.

(Maybe not as discerning of an eye but an eye none the less)

kalm wrote:

Chizzang wrote:


And yet we cannot speak about Islam like adults because we might hurt somebody's feelings
Really..? This is where I depart from the Liberal mindset

Wait. Who said that?

You should probably try approaching it from a rational standpoint versus an ideological one.

Islam is troubling. We should keep an eye on those guys.

Defense of irrational jingoistic backlash is troubling too. Should probably keep an eye on them as well.

(Maybe not as discerning of an eye but an eye none the less)

You forgot Iraq and the Medieval Inquisition...