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Absent some last-minute fireworks, President Bush will leave office with a kind of double failure on Iran: Administration hard-liners haven't checked Tehran's drive to acquire nuclear-weapons technology, and moderates haven't engaged Iran in negotiation and dialogue.


The strategic balance between the two countries is the opposite of what Bush had hoped to accomplish: Iran is stronger than it was eight years ago, and the United States, fighting costly wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, is weaker. Iran spurns America's carrots and dismisses its sticks.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02369.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let's start with centrifuges, the crucial technology for enriching the uranium fuel needed for a bomb. When Bush took office in 2001, Iran had no known centrifuges in operation. Today, Iran is operating about 3,850 centrifuges, with plans to add approximately 3,000, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Now let's consider the enriched uranium itself. When Bush took office, Iran had none. By this month, the IAEA reported, the Iranians had 1,390 pounds of low-enriched uranium. That's enough to make one nuclear weapon, after this feedstock has been enriched further with additional passes through the centrifuges.

What about the missile systems that could deliver a nuclear weapon? Iran has continued over the past eight years to expand its arsenal of ballistic missiles. The Shahab-3 has a range of about 1,300 miles, which could allow it to target Israel and countries in Eastern Europe. Iran is also developing a longer-range, Shahab-6 intercontinental ballistic missile with a range of 6,200 miles that could, in theory, reach parts of the United States.

Iran - another GOP foreign policy FAILURE.


Thank goodness for Obama trying to clean up Bush/Cheney's messes.


Of course, the myopic GOP wants to repeat BUsh's failures, ones that have led to the destabilization of the ME, unprecedented humanitarian crisis, ISIL, thousands of American lives lost, and trillions wasted.

dbackjon wrote:Iran - another GOP foreign policy FAILURE.


Thank goodness for Obama trying to clean up Bush/Cheney's messes.


Of course, the myopic GOP wants to repeat BUsh's failures, ones that have led to the destabilization of the ME, unprecedented humanitarian crisis, ISIL, thousands of American lives lost, and trillions wasted.

JFC, you only waited THREE MINUTES before you recast?

Amateur.

There's a reason this guy writes on the opinions page Jon.

dbackjon wrote:Iran - another GOP foreign policy FAILURE.


Thank goodness for Obama trying to clean up Bush/Cheney's messes.


Of course, the myopic GOP wants to repeat BUsh's failures, ones that have led to the destabilization of the ME, unprecedented humanitarian crisis, ISIL, thousands of American lives lost, and trillions wasted.

I chuckled at that one. I mean, we all yearn for the years when the Middle East was a calm, tranquil, and stable area of the world. When was that again?

Care to provide the numbers since 2008?


But Bush.

GannonFan wrote:

dbackjon wrote:Iran - another GOP foreign policy FAILURE.


Thank goodness for Obama trying to clean up Bush/Cheney's messes.


Of course, the myopic GOP wants to repeat BUsh's failures, ones that have led to the destabilization of the ME, unprecedented humanitarian crisis, ISIL, thousands of American lives lost, and trillions wasted.

I chuckled at that one. I mean, we all yearn for the years when the Middle East was a calm, tranquil, and stable area of the world. When was that again?

Right before Eve bit into an apple...

Cluck U wrote:

dbackjon wrote:Iran - another GOP foreign policy FAILURE.


Thank goodness for Obama trying to clean up Bush/Cheney's messes.


Of course, the myopic GOP wants to repeat BUsh's failures, ones that have led to the destabilization of the ME, unprecedented humanitarian crisis, ISIL, thousands of American lives lost, and trillions wasted.

JFC, you only waited THREE MINUTES before you recast?

Amateur.

He's already bored by the Kim Davis thread and decided he had to re-establish his street cred with the hard (no homo) left.

ASUG8 wrote:Care to provide the numbers since 2008?


But Bush.

Can you?


I love how you all want to not only absolve the wretched GOP foreign policy of the Bush/Cheney era, but double down and repeat it all over again.

Ivytalk wrote:

Cluck U wrote:
JFC, you only waited THREE MINUTES before you recast?

Amateur.

He's already bored by the Kim Davis thread and decided he had to re-establish his street cred with the hard (no homo) left.

I will take that as an admission I am right, as usual.

GannonFan wrote:

dbackjon wrote:Iran - another GOP foreign policy FAILURE.


Thank goodness for Obama trying to clean up Bush/Cheney's messes.


Of course, the myopic GOP wants to repeat BUsh's failures, ones that have led to the destabilization of the ME, unprecedented humanitarian crisis, ISIL, thousands of American lives lost, and trillions wasted.

I chuckled at that one. I mean, we all yearn for the years when the Middle East was a calm, tranquil, and stable area of the world. When was that again?

It never has been. But it was much better before Bush decided to invade Iraq.

dbackjon wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
I chuckled at that one. I mean, we all yearn for the years when the Middle East was a calm, tranquil, and stable area of the world. When was that again?

It never has been. But it was much better before Bush decided to invade Iraq.

Yeah, things were much better.

USS Cole bombing - 10/12/00
1998 US Embassy bombings, Kenya and Tanzania
World Trade Center Bombing, 1993
Khobar Towers bombing 6/25/96
US fires 23 Cruise missiles in attack on Baghdad, 1993

Bush had some problems, but the Middle East isn't solely his fault. They've been fighting amongst themselves for centuries and hating us for decades.

Sykes-Picot, fellas.

dbackjon wrote:

Ivytalk wrote: He's already bored by the Kim Davis thread and decided he had to re-establish his street cred with the hard (no homo) left.

I will take that as an admission I am right, as usual.

You haven't been right about anything since Vatican II.

oh I long for the good ol days

when Obama was triumphantly overseeing the arab spring and everything was wine and roses

ISIL wasnt yet varsity (coz they were still JV)

we were decapitating Libya

actively helping the "arab spring" in Syria (AkA ISIL)

good times good times

dbackjon wrote:

ASUG8 wrote:Care to provide the numbers since 2008?


But Bush.

Can you?


I love how you all want to not only absolve the wretched GOP foreign policy of the Bush/Cheney era, but double down and repeat it all over again.

Not my thread, but see the link below. You're cherrypicking history and omitting the last several years.

This article says they have enough material for seven warheads and 9,000 centrifuges now, nearly 2.5x what Obama "inherited" in 2008.

http://www.iranwatch.org/our-publicatio ... -timetable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not absolving anyone of anything, just saying you should be inclusive of the current administration's tenure in your numbers. It's not like the Iranians stopped their centrifuges in 2008.

Reagan sold them arms so they must be ok.

Yeah, Dick. Didn't you leave Obama with a mess?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiRby8sr8_k[/youtube]

dbackjon wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
I chuckled at that one. I mean, we all yearn for the years when the Middle East was a calm, tranquil, and stable area of the world. When was that again?

It never has been. But it was much better before Bush decided to invade Iraq.

You have to stop with the dramatics. I'm not arguing that Bush's approach to the Middle East didn't fail, because it did fail, but in the long term perspective we aren't really worse off as a result. The Middle East was a disaster before Bush and is a disaster now with Obama, and neither man is really to blame for that. Pre-Bush, Iran was still Iran, Iraq was ruled by a despised, brutal dictator that the rest of the world blamed on us for being there, the Kurds were persecuted to the point of genocide, Assad was another in a long line of brutal dictators propped up by the US, and so on and so on. Today, the problems are slightly different, but no better or no worse than what was really a screwed up situation before. Bush tried and he failed, much like Obama tried and is failing, and much like every President who came before them has tried and failed. Ultimately, though, the blame lies with the Middle East itself and the people who live there - if you want your lives to be better, the responsibility is on you to make it so, and they have failed for centuries now. It's a tough world.

GannonFan wrote:

dbackjon wrote:

It never has been. But it was much better before Bush decided to invade Iraq.

You have to stop with the dramatics. I'm not arguing that Bush's approach to the Middle East didn't fail, because it did fail, but in the long term perspective we aren't really worse off as a result. The Middle East was a disaster before Bush and is a disaster now with Obama, and neither man is really to blame for that. Pre-Bush, Iran was still Iran, Iraq was ruled by a despised, brutal dictator that the rest of the world blamed on us for being there, the Kurds were persecuted to the point of genocide, Assad was another in a long line of brutal dictators propped up by the US, and so on and so on. Today, the problems are slightly different, but no better or no worse than what was really a screwed up situation before. Bush tried and he failed, much like Obama tried and is failing, and much like every President who came before them has tried and failed. Ultimately, though, the blame lies with the Middle East itself and the people who live there - if you want your lives to be better, the responsibility is on you to make it so, and they have failed for centuries now. It's a tough world.

Carter had some success.

GannonFan wrote:

dbackjon wrote:

It never has been. But it was much better before Bush decided to invade Iraq.

You have to stop with the dramatics. I'm not arguing that Bush's approach to the Middle East didn't fail, because it did fail, but in the long term perspective we aren't really worse off as a result. The Middle East was a disaster before Bush and is a disaster now with Obama, and neither man is really to blame for that. Pre-Bush, Iran was still Iran, Iraq was ruled by a despised, brutal dictator that the rest of the world blamed on us for being there, the Kurds were persecuted to the point of genocide, Assad was another in a long line of brutal dictators propped up by the US, and so on and so on. Today, the problems are slightly different, but no better or no worse than what was really a screwed up situation before. Bush tried and he failed, much like Obama tried and is failing, and much like every President who came before them has tried and failed. Ultimately, though, the blame lies with the Middle East itself and the people who live there - if you want your lives to be better, the responsibility is on you to make it so, and they have failed for centuries now. It's a tough world.

Asking a homo to stop with the dramatics is like asking a bear to stop shitting in the woods..

kalm wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
You have to stop with the dramatics. I'm not arguing that Bush's approach to the Middle East didn't fail, because it did fail, but in the long term perspective we aren't really worse off as a result. The Middle East was a disaster before Bush and is a disaster now with Obama, and neither man is really to blame for that. Pre-Bush, Iran was still Iran, Iraq was ruled by a despised, brutal dictator that the rest of the world blamed on us for being there, the Kurds were persecuted to the point of genocide, Assad was another in a long line of brutal dictators propped up by the US, and so on and so on. Today, the problems are slightly different, but no better or no worse than what was really a screwed up situation before. Bush tried and he failed, much like Obama tried and is failing, and much like every President who came before them has tried and failed. Ultimately, though, the blame lies with the Middle East itself and the people who live there - if you want your lives to be better, the responsibility is on you to make it so, and they have failed for centuries now. It's a tough world.

Carter had some success.

Eh, small successes that led to further failures. Under Carter's watch, sure the Camp David Accords were signed, but outside of brokering peace between Israel and Egypt, what did those Accords accomplish? The Accords were an incredibly positive and worthwhile thing for Carter to do, and he certainly is commended because of them, but Sadat basically signed his death warrant when he signed them as he was assassinated a few years later by groups directly opposed to what he did. The part of the Accords that dealt with the Palestinian question were thoroughly invalidated as the UN quickly said they weren't valid (because it had left out all the key players besides Israel and Egypt) and because Begin went ahead and accelerated settlement building for the express purpose of making those areas more difficult to be negotiated away in the future. And, kinda like the ISIS thing, by pulling Egypt away from its Arab allies and having them separately make peace with Israel, it indirectly led to Sadaam Hussein and a, at that time, relatively uninvolved Iraq, to become the region's largest military that was opposed to Israel. We all know how that ended up over the following decades. Oh, and the Iranians had a major revolution in 1979 that brought an Islamic government into play that still complicates Middle East politics to this day.

But yeah, sure, he did great.

My dad always said that Carter was too good of a man to be president.

GannonFan wrote:

kalm wrote:
Carter had some success.

Eh, small successes that led to further failures. Under Carter's watch, sure the Camp David Accords were signed, but outside of brokering peace between Israel and Egypt, what did those Accords accomplish? The Accords were an incredibly positive and worthwhile thing for Carter to do, and he certainly is commended because of them, but Sadat basically signed his death warrant when he signed them as he was assassinated a few years later by groups directly opposed to what he did. The part of the Accords that dealt with the Palestinian question were thoroughly invalidated as the UN quickly said they weren't valid (because it had left out all the key players besides Israel and Egypt) and because Begin went ahead and accelerated settlement building for the express purpose of making those areas more difficult to be negotiated away in the future. And, kinda like the ISIS thing, by pulling Egypt away from its Arab allies and having them separately make peace with Israel, it indirectly led to Sadaam Hussein and a, at that time, relatively uninvolved Iraq, to become the region's largest military that was opposed to Israel. We all know how that ended up over the following decades. Oh, and the Iranians had a major revolution in 1979 that brought an Islamic government into play that still complicates Middle East politics to this day.

But yeah, sure, he did great.

Well, at least Reagan's election wasn't held hostage by Carter's failures in Iran.

Take note gentlemen

This will be Obama's legacy - his crowning achievement-

He had an 8 year opportunity to heal the wounds, push reset buttons, halt the rising seas, bring the races togther

The presidential library won't need to be too big- just enough room for a Nobel prize and a wall sized plaque that reads, "He wasn't George Bush"