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Is it different, hypocritical, or ok for a just cause?

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:30 pm
by UNI88
Found this commentary from Friday's Chicago Tribune interesting and would like to know what the more liberal members of the board think.

The Sky Is Falling: How Obama's administration plays on fear
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... 4970.story
Numerous commentators, including me, have pointed to this never-waste-a-crisis mantra as ideological evidence that Obama's budget priorities are a great bait-and-switch. He says he wants to fix the financial crisis, but he's focusing on selling his long-standing liberal agenda on health care, energy and education as the way to do it, even though his proposals have absolutely nothing to do with addressing the housing and toxic-debt problems that are the direct causes of our predicament. Indeed, some—particularly on Wall Street—would argue that his policies are making the crisis worse.
...
Recall that not long ago, the first item on the bill of indictment against the Bush administration was that it was "exploiting" Sept. 11, 2001, to enact its agenda. Al Gore shrieked that President George W. Bush "played on our fears" to get his way. In response to nearly every Bush initiative, from the USA Patriot Act to the toppling of Saddam Hussein, critics would caterwaul that Bush was taking advantage of the country's fear of terrorism.
...
Obama's defenders respond to this argument by stating that the president's motives are decent, noble and pure. He wants to help the uninsured and the poorly educated. He wants to make good on his vow to halt those rising oceans.

But this is just a rationalization. Every president thinks his agenda is what's best for the country; every politician believes his motives are noble. The point is that scaring people about X in order to achieve Y is fundamentally undemocratic.

This was transparently obvious to Bush's harshest critics, who alleged that Sept. 11 was merely a convenient crisis for devious neocons who wanted to topple Hussein all along. But it's now clear that many of these critics simply objected to the agenda, not the alleged tactics. Now that it's their turn, they see nothing wrong with doing what they so recently condemned.
  • Is what Obama is doing different from what Bush did (I do believe that he exploited a crisis to achieve a different agenda) and how so?
  • Is it the same but ok because the cause is just (in your mind)? Please keep in mind that many a hawk would argue that Bush's cause was just.
  • Is it really hypocritical and just more of the same old same old that politicians have been guilty of for centuries?
  • Is the writer just full of it and why do you think that?

Re: Is it different, hypocritical, or ok for a just cause?

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:10 pm
by travelinman67
That's been my whole point...

All of the issues Obama campaigned on, issues he underlined were Bush's (conservative's) failures...he himself has been guilty of.

In all fairness...I don't really believe this is all coming directly from Obama, but rather, much like Bush, Obama has people in his cabinet who are 100% certified Wingding fuck nuts with nary a clue as to the damage they're doing to this country.
To turn things around, he needs to seek Pelosi and Reid's resignation from House leadership, and kick Podesta, Axelrod and Shapiro in the nuts every time he sees them.

In my humble opinion.

Re: Is it different, hypocritical, or ok for a just cause?

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:46 am
by UNI88
travelinman67 wrote:That's been my whole point...

All of the issues Obama campaigned on, issues he underlined were Bush's (conservative's) failures...he himself has been guilty of.

In all fairness...I don't really believe this is all coming directly from Obama, but rather, much like Bush, Obama has people in his cabinet who are 100% certified Wingding [*]f**k nuts with nary a clue as to the damage they're doing to this country.
To turn things around, he needs to seek Pelosi and Reid's resignation from House leadership, and kick Podesta, Axelrod and Shapiro in the nuts every time he sees them.

In my humble opinion.
I know you've been preaching this TMan but I think some people tune you out occasionally.

The columnist makes some reasonable arguments and I would like to know how Obama's supporters would respond.

Re: Is it different, hypocritical, or ok for a just cause?

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:30 am
by dbackjon
I have no doubt in my mind that the Democrats are usually the stimulus bills to get through 14 years of pent up pet projects through Congress, and I don't like it at all.

I sincerely hope that now that the pent up load is spent, real change can happen.

Re: Is it different, hypocritical, or ok for a just cause?

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:33 pm
by UNI88
dbackjon wrote:I have no doubt in my mind that the Democrats are usually the stimulus bills to get through 14 years of pent up pet projects through Congress, and I don't like it at all.

I sincerely hope that now that the pent up load is spent, real change can happen.
Fair enough. I can understand why many Dem's would be salivating at the opportunity to push through their agenda after those 14 years. I do wish that one party would act like an adult and refrain from pushing their agenda and instead focus on a truly bipartisan effort to do what was best for the country when given the opportunity. Knowing that that is more than unlikely I'll have to wait with you and hope that real change happens when they're finished venting.

Re: Is it different, hypocritical, or ok for a just cause?

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:40 pm
by Appaholic
UNI88 wrote:
dbackjon wrote:I have no doubt in my mind that the Democrats are usually the stimulus bills to get through 14 years of pent up pet projects through Congress, and I don't like it at all.

I sincerely hope that now that the pent up load is spent, real change can happen.
Fair enough. I can understand why many Dem's would be salivating at the opportunity to push through their agenda after those 14 years. I do wish that one party would act like an adult and refrain from pushing their agenda and instead focus on a truly bipartisan effort to do what was best for the country when given the opportunity. Knowing that that is more than unlikely I'll have to wait with you and hope that real change happens when they're finished venting.
Therein lies the rub......if the public voted either democrat or republican expecting "change" (ie: either party to act like an adult), then......well, what can I say....those folks have a lot more faith in politicians than is warranted.........

Re: Is it different, hypocritical, or ok for a just cause?

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:12 pm
by AZGrizFan
dbackjon wrote:I have no doubt in my mind that the Democrats are usually the stimulus bills to get through 14 years of pent up pet projects through Congress, and I don't like it at all.

I sincerely hope that now that the pent up load is spent, real change can happen.
You mean all $2 trillion of it?

Re: Is it different, hypocritical, or ok for a just cause?

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:32 pm
by dbackjon
AZGrizFan wrote:
dbackjon wrote:I have no doubt in my mind that the Democrats are usually the stimulus bills to get through 14 years of pent up pet projects through Congress, and I don't like it at all.

I sincerely hope that now that the pent up load is spent, real change can happen.
You mean all $2 trillion of it?
Not all $2 trillion, dufus. A great majority went to fix the errors of your Bush Admin

Re: Is it different, hypocritical, or ok for a just cause?

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:35 pm
by UNI88
dbackjon wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote: You mean all $2 trillion of it?
Not all $2 trillion, dufus. A great majority went to fix the errors of your Bush Admin
It's probably been said before but you two take pot shots at each other like an old married couple. :D



And I find it highly entertaining, so keep it up!