Liberals are the New Autocrats

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Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by kalm »

I agree with much of this. Centralized power and the microagressions/pc thingy are two ugly sides of lefty politics that unfortunately are also supported by some on the right. :ohno:

(BTW, I wish we had more truly partisan lefties on here to argue with. I miss TCBF)
How Liberals Are The New Autocrats
Progressives may preach the joys of localism, but the trend in government is all the other way in everything from climate change to the economic complexion of your neighborhood.

The End of Localism

This could be how our experiment with grassroots democracy finally ends. World leaders—the super-rich, their pet non-profits, their media boosters, and their allies in the global apparat—gather in Paris to hammer out a deal to transform the planet, and our lives. No one asks much about what the states and the communities, the electorate, or even Congress, thinks of the arrangement. The executive now presumes to rule on these issues.

For many of the world’s leading countries—China, Russia, Saudi Arabia—such top down edicts are fine and dandy, particularly since their supreme leaders won’t have to adhere to them if inconvenienced. But the desire for centralized control is also spreading among the shrinking remnant of actual democracies, where political give and take is baked into the system.


The will to power is unmistakable. California Governor Jerry Brown, now posturing as the aged philosopher-prince fresh from Paris, hails the “coercive power of the state” to make people live properly by his lights. California’s high electricity prices, regulation driven spikes in home values, and the highest energy prices in the continental United States may be a bane for middle and working class families, but are sold as a wonderful achievement among our presumptive masters.........................

Some leading progressives, like Nation contributor and Bay Area activist Zelda Bronstein, attack the growth of regional governments, designated to force compliance with state and federal mandates, as fundamentally undemocratic, embracing “insular, peremptory style of decision making.” Even millennials, who have tended to the left, are skeptical about over-centralized government. A recent National Journal poll, showed that they, like most Americans, are not enamored of top-down solutions: less than a third favor federal over locally-based solutions.

Simply put, there is no huge appetite for ever expanding federal power among the majority of the populace. What is missing, outside of nihilistic opposition to all government, is a strong movement advocating for more authority in the hands of local communities, families, and volunteer organization. This does not necessarily mean a decline in environmental standards, since most people care most about the places where they and their families reside. Even with climate change, a carbon tax could be approved without adopting the California formula of ever more mega-regulations covering virtually every aspect of life.

As Alexis de Tocqueville noted in the 1830s, the genius of this republic lies not in its central state, but in its dispersion, voluntary association, and ideological diversity. If we undermine the legacy of our federal structure to something more akin to that, say, of France or Russia, the United States could no longer play its historic role as a rare beacon of independence and self-government in a world increasingly dominated by various manifestations of centralized tyranny.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... crats.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by Ivytalk »

I just finished reading the whole thing, and I likewise agree with much of it. I just wish Kotkin had devoted more space to the differences between the left's "rule by experts" and the right's "rule by elites."
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:BTW, I wish we had more truly partisan lefties on here
:suspicious:
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by CID1990 »

A slide to autocracy is the natural state of affairs for the statist left and the religious right.

They both increasingly seek to restrict liberty when they realize they are a minority.

The natural state of man is one of freedom. We only give that up by being coerced.
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote:A slide to autocracy is the natural state of affairs for the statist left and the religious right.

They both increasingly seek to restrict liberty when they realize they are a minority.

The natural state of man is one of freedom. We only give that up by being coerced.
Succinctness admired. :nod:

Although I'd also throw greed in there somewhere as well and it can come from both sides.
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
CID1990 wrote:A slide to autocracy is the natural state of affairs for the statist left and the religious right.

They both increasingly seek to restrict liberty when they realize they are a minority.

The natural state of man is one of freedom. We only give that up by being coerced.
Succinctness admired. :nod:

Although I'd also throw greed in there somewhere as well and it can come from both sides.
greed is the motivation of the altruistic left?

tell me more, Karl
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote:
kalm wrote:
Succinctness admired. :nod:

Although I'd also throw greed in there somewhere as well and it can come from both sides.
greed is the motivation of the altruistic left?

tell me more, Karl
No, Howard, greed can be a motivation toward autocracy in general. :coffee: See oligarchies, monopolies, there's a shit ton of examples.

(This is what I get for paying you a compliment)
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
greed is the motivation of the altruistic left?

tell me more, Karl
No, Howard, greed can be a motivation toward autocracy in general. :coffee: See oligarchies, monopolies, there's a **** ton of examples.

(This is what I get for paying you a compliment)
youve gone off the rails

greed doesnt motivate ideologues

that comes after they have already achieved power. Im talking about political power

what motivates the Marxist/religious zealot who thinks we should all think like him and therefore behave like him?
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote:
kalm wrote:
No, Howard, greed can be a motivation toward autocracy in general. :coffee: See oligarchies, monopolies, there's a **** ton of examples.

(This is what I get for paying you a compliment)
youve gone off the rails

greed doesnt motivate ideologues

that comes after they have already achieved power. Im talking about political power

what motivates the Marxist/religious zealot who thinks we should all think like him and therefore behave like him?
And I'm talking about autocracy. Greed can obviously motivate a slide toward autocracy as well.

And "greed doesn't motivate ideologues"? Are you sure? :suspicious:
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by CAA Flagship »

CID1990 wrote:
kalm wrote:
No, Howard, greed can be a motivation toward autocracy in general. :coffee: See oligarchies, monopolies, there's a **** ton of examples.

(This is what I get for paying you a compliment)
youve gone off the rails

greed doesnt motivate ideologues

that comes after they have already achieved power. Im talking about political power

what motivates the Marxist/religious zealot who thinks we should all think like him and therefore behave like him?
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by Chizzang »

CID1990 wrote:A slide to autocracy is the natural state of affairs for the statist left and the religious right.

They both increasingly seek to restrict liberty when they realize they are a minority.

The natural state of man is one of freedom. We only give that up by being coerced.
This ^ is why the fringe (on both sides) has always been and will always be
the enemy of a Democratic Republic


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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by JohnStOnge »

Liberalism ultimately requires autocracy.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
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But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by Chizzang »

JohnStOnge wrote:Liberalism ultimately requires autocracy.
and yet the fundamental idea of our country "Democratic Republic" is an extremely liberal idea...

Imagine that John...
There was apparently one good liberal idea


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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by JohnStOnge »

and yet the fundamental idea of our country "Democratic Republic" is an extremely liberal idea...

Imagine that John...
There was apparently one good liberal idea
I was using "Liberalism" in the sense that it tends to be used today. Really all "liberal" means is being willing to change the status quo. In one sense people we call "conservatives" in today's context are "liberal" in the sense that they want to change the status quo. In that sense wanting to change things so that the Federal government has minimal power and authority is "liberal." Something like saying one thinks that an employer should be free to discriminate on the basis of race is also "liberal." But most would never call it that because when they're thinking "liberal" they're really thinking of the kind of egalitarianism that's taken hold.

It might be better to identify what we tend to call "liberal" kind of an egalitarian socialism. And it ultimately it's realization requires autocracy. Or at least it requires powerful and centralized government. Like for instance it requires that government go so far as to tell someone who owns a business that they are not free to enter into employer/employee relationships as they choose to. They must follow the egalitarian rules. That is an incredible government intrusion into personal decision processes that we largely take for granted.
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:
and yet the fundamental idea of our country "Democratic Republic" is an extremely liberal idea...

Imagine that John...
There was apparently one good liberal idea
I was using "Liberalism" in the sense that it tends to be used today. Really all "liberal" means is being willing to change the status quo. In one sense people we call "conservatives" in today's context are "liberal" in the sense that they want to change the status quo. In that sense wanting to change things so that the Federal government has minimal power and authority is "liberal." Something like saying one thinks that an employer should be free to discriminate on the basis of race is also "liberal." But most would never call it that because when they're thinking "liberal" they're really thinking of the kind of egalitarianism that's taken hold.

It might be better to identify what we tend to call "liberal" kind of an egalitarian socialism. And it ultimately it's realization requires autocracy. Or at least it requires powerful and centralized government. Like for instance it requires that government go so far as to tell someone who owns a business that they are not free to enter into employer/employee relationships as they choose to. They must follow the egalitarian rules. That is an incredible government intrusion into personal decision processes that we largely take for granted.
Creating you're own definitions and using labels is tricky business. I think the part you're not suppose to like is the "using government" part and I get that, but there's some stuff in there that just doesn't jive with the pejorative use of the word.
liberalism
noun lib·er·al·ism \ˈli-b(ə-)rə-ˌli-zəm\

Simple Definition of liberalism

: belief in the value of social and political change in order to achieve progress

Full Definition of liberalism
1: the quality or state of being liberal

2:
a often capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity
b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard
c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties; specifically : such a philosophy that considers government as a crucial instrument for amelioration of social inequities (as those involving race, gender, or class)
d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party
Sorry. :)
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by Chizzang »

JohnStOnge wrote:
and yet the fundamental idea of our country "Democratic Republic" is an extremely liberal idea...

Imagine that John...
There was apparently one good liberal idea
I was using "Liberalism" in the sense that it tends to be used today. Really all "liberal" means is being willing to change the status quo. In one sense people we call "conservatives" in today's context are "liberal" in the sense that they want to change the status quo. In that sense wanting to change things so that the Federal government has minimal power and authority is "liberal." Something like saying one thinks that an employer should be free to discriminate on the basis of race is also "liberal." But most would never call it that because when they're thinking "liberal" they're really thinking of the kind of egalitarianism that's taken hold.

It might be better to identify what we tend to call "liberal" kind of an egalitarian socialism. And it ultimately it's realization requires autocracy. Or at least it requires powerful and centralized government. Like for instance it requires that government go so far as to tell someone who owns a business that they are not free to enter into employer/employee relationships as they choose to. They must follow the egalitarian rules. That is an incredible government intrusion into personal decision processes that we largely take for granted.

The giant piles of steaming sh!t you randomly pull out of your ass
to obfuscate a simple point is astounding

:rofl:

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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by JohnStOnge »

Kalm, here is a definition also from Miriam Webster of the word "liberal":
not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted
The "simple definition" of "liberalism" you posted is, I think, consistent with that:
belief in the value of social and political change in order to achieve progress
It's belief in deviating from the established order. What one thinks "progress" is varies from person to person.
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Could I ever be a star?

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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by JohnStOnge »

Chizz, the move to the idea of a Democratic Republic was a move towards decreasing the power of government. It would not be viewed as "liberal" in the way most people understand "liberalism" today. But it obviously was "liberalism" in the sense that it was a change from the established order.
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Could I ever be a star?

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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by AZGrizFan »

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:BTW, I wish we had more truly partisan lefties on here
:suspicious:
:lol: I saw that to and thought "da fuck?"
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by Chizzang »

JohnStOnge wrote:Chizz, the move to the idea of a Democratic Republic was a move towards decreasing the power of government. It would not be viewed as "liberal" in the way most people understand "liberalism" today. But it obviously was "liberalism" in the sense that it was a change from the established order.
Bingo..!!!
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by houndawg »

JohnStOnge wrote:Chizz, the move to the idea of a Democratic Republic was a move towards decreasing the power of government. It would not be viewed as "liberal" in the way most people understand "liberalism" today. But it obviously was "liberalism" in the sense that it was a change from the established order.
We understand the anguish and suffering you've experienced in keeping this response under three pages long and we sincerely appreciate your effort. :thumb:
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
89Hen wrote: :suspicious:
:lol: I saw that to and thought "da fuck?"
Is anyone other than Dback supporting or voting for Hillary? :coffee:

Quick...count all the liberal autocratic backlash posts there are in this thread. :coffee: :coffee:
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
:lol: I saw that to and thought "da ****?"
Is anyone other than Dback supporting or voting for Hillary? :coffee:

Quick...count all the liberal autocratic backlash posts there are in this thread. :coffee: :coffee:
there will be plenty in the general election

but of those only dback will admit having voted for her
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by AZGrizFan »

houndawg wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:Chizz, the move to the idea of a Democratic Republic was a move towards decreasing the power of government. It would not be viewed as "liberal" in the way most people understand "liberalism" today. But it obviously was "liberalism" in the sense that it was a change from the established order.
We understand the anguish and suffering you've experienced in keeping this response under three pages long and we sincerely appreciate your effort. :thumb:
As opposed to klammy, who links long, boring articles and embeds the entire thing into his posts...
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Re: Liberals are the New Autocrats

Post by Pwns »

Conservatives tend to favor more state and local control…liberals more federal control. At least if you ask them.

Of course if a state passes a silly gun law, restricts abortions after 20 weeks of gestation, adopts common core, gives in-state tuition to illegals, many tend to forget those principles pretty quickly.

Example: Some liberal people I know want the feds more involved in higher education. Those exact same people are going to pitch a conniption fit when higher ed gets no-child-left-behind-ized and the DoE or whoever is telling faculty what to teach how many hours they have to each each semester.
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