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The truth is, while we Americans profess to want honest leaders, what we really want are effective leaders, and sometimes lies are necessary evils if we want to get something accomplished. Machiavelli famously laid that argument out in The Prince:

“Everyone admits how praiseworthy it is in a prince to keep his word, and to behave with integrity rather than cunning. Nevertheless our experience has been that those princes who have done great things have considered keeping their word of little account, and have known how to beguile men’s minds by shrewdness and cunning. In the end these princes have overcome those who have relied on keeping their word.”

When we got a president who promised never to lie to us, as Jimmy Carter did in 1976, many thought he was not particularly effective and voters tossed him out on his ear in 1980, for a master Machiavellian prince named Ronald Reagan.....

kalm wrote:Some highlights:

Presidential dishonesty ain't always a bad thing.

The article is another vindication of you Southerners and your complaints about Lincoln. The one line historical reference that "He freed the slaves" is indeed misleading about his presidency.

Hopefully all the efforts to re-frame Reagan as a great president continue to be swatted into the seats.

FDR was a good liar too but note to proto-conks. Your most hated 20th century socialist-liberal villain was a champion AGAINST fascism. Not that fascism is a right wing phenomenon too. No...never...uh uhhhh.

The truth is, while we Americans profess to want honest leaders, what we really want are effective leaders, and sometimes lies are necessary evils if we want to get something accomplished. Machiavelli famously laid that argument out in The Prince:

“Everyone admits how praiseworthy it is in a prince to keep his word, and to behave with integrity rather than cunning. Nevertheless our experience has been that those princes who have done great things have considered keeping their word of little account, and have known how to beguile men’s minds by shrewdness and cunning. In the end these princes have overcome those who have relied on keeping their word.”

When we got a president who promised never to lie to us, as Jimmy Carter did in 1976, many thought he was not particularly effective and voters tossed him out on his ear in 1980, for a master Machiavellian prince named Ronald Reagan.....

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/here-ar ... ge-w-bush/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Baldy wrote:

kalm wrote:Some highlights:

Presidential dishonesty ain't always a bad thing.

The article is another vindication of you Southerners and your complaints about Lincoln. The one line historical reference that "He freed the slaves" is indeed misleading about his presidency.

Hopefully all the efforts to re-frame Reagan as a great president continue to be swatted into the seats.

FDR was a good liar too but note to proto-conks. Your most hated 20th century socialist-liberal villain was a champion AGAINST fascism. Not that fascism is a right wing phenomenon too. No...never...uh uhhhh.



http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/here-ar ... ge-w-bush/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's the actual meaning of the article. The Hildabeast can be President too because, in my opinion, she is no different than Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon and 10X better than W.

No Obama. Even as a runner-up?

Raw Story = a low information Donk jack towel.

Baldy wrote: Here's the actual meaning of the article. The Hildabeast can be President too because, in my opinion, she is no different than Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon and 10X better than W.

Hopefully all the efforts to re-frame Reagan as a great president continue to be swatted into the seats.

JohnStOnge wrote:

Hopefully all the efforts to re-frame Reagan as a great president continue to be swatted into the seats.

There has never been a need to "re-frame" Reagan as a great President because he's been recognized as such all along. The "re-framing" effort has been devoted to trying to create the impression that he wasn't.

JohnStOnge wrote:

Hopefully all the efforts to re-frame Reagan as a great president continue to be swatted into the seats.

There has never been a need to "re-frame" Reagan as a great President because he's been recognized as such all along. The "re-framing" effort has been devoted to trying to create the impression that he wasn't.

kalm wrote:Some highlights:

Presidential dishonesty ain't always a bad thing.

The article is another vindication of you Southerners and your complaints about Lincoln. The one line historical reference that "He freed the slaves" is indeed misleading about his presidency.

Hopefully all the efforts to re-frame Reagan as a great president continue to be swatted into the seats.

FDR was a good liar too but note to proto-conks. Your most hated 20th century socialist-liberal villain was a champion AGAINST fascism. Not that fascism is a right wing phenomenon too. No...never...uh uhhhh.

The truth is, while we Americans profess to want honest leaders, what we really want are effective leaders, and sometimes lies are necessary evils if we want to get something accomplished. Machiavelli famously laid that argument out in The Prince:

“Everyone admits how praiseworthy it is in a prince to keep his word, and to behave with integrity rather than cunning. Nevertheless our experience has been that those princes who have done great things have considered keeping their word of little account, and have known how to beguile men’s minds by shrewdness and cunning. In the end these princes have overcome those who have relied on keeping their word.”

When we got a president who promised never to lie to us, as Jimmy Carter did in 1976, many thought he was not particularly effective and voters tossed him out on his ear in 1980, for a master Machiavellian prince named Ronald Reagan.....

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/here-ar ... ge-w-bush/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CID1990 wrote:

kalm wrote:Some highlights:

Presidential dishonesty ain't always a bad thing.

The article is another vindication of you Southerners and your complaints about Lincoln. The one line historical reference that "He freed the slaves" is indeed misleading about his presidency.

Hopefully all the efforts to re-frame Reagan as a great president continue to be swatted into the seats.

FDR was a good liar too but note to proto-conks. Your most hated 20th century socialist-liberal villain was a champion AGAINST fascism. Not that fascism is a right wing phenomenon too. No...never...uh uhhhh.



http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/here-ar ... ge-w-bush/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hey look

Another thread from Mr Moderate

Throws a sidelong bone to conks to cover for an obviously mainstream establishment Donk nodpiece


Klam - Reagan

Similar to

Chizzang - Big Internets

JohnStOnge wrote:

Hopefully all the efforts to re-frame Reagan as a great president continue to be swatted into the seats.

There has never been a need to "re-frame" Reagan as a great President because he's been recognized as such all along. The "re-framing" effort has been devoted to trying to create the impression that he wasn't.

kalm wrote:

CID1990 wrote:

Hey look

Another thread from Mr Moderate

Throws a sidelong bone to conks to cover for an obviously mainstream establishment Donk nodpiece


Klam - Reagan

Similar to

Chizzang - Big Internets

Well ****! I guess you're on to my evil plan!

houndawg wrote:

JohnStOnge wrote:
There has never been a need to "re-frame" Reagan as a great President because he's been recognized as such all along. The "re-framing" effort has been devoted to trying to create the impression that he wasn't.

Meh. He was a run-of-the-mill tax and spend Republican who raised taxes 11 times and whose own VP called his policies "voodoo economics", probably because they were proposed by his wife's astrologer.

Bronco wrote:-
6 pages and growing of obama lies

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... se-broken/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He will leave a legacy as the biggest liar to ever live in the white house

Chizzang wrote:

Bronco wrote:-
6 pages and growing of obama lies

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... se-broken/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He will leave a legacy as the biggest liar to ever live in the white house

Um... you do realize
That entire first page is things he tried to pass but were rejected by congress

You know that right..?

Chizzang wrote:

Bronco wrote:-
6 pages and growing of obama lies

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... se-broken/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He will leave a legacy as the biggest liar to ever live in the white house

Um... you do realize
That entire first page is things he tried to pass but were rejected by congress

You know that right..?

JohnStOnge wrote:

Hopefully all the efforts to re-frame Reagan as a great president continue to be swatted into the seats.

There has never been a need to "re-frame" Reagan as a great President because he's been recognized as such all along. The "re-framing" effort has been devoted to trying to create the impression that he wasn't.

Jjoey52 wrote:No, he only fixed Carter's mess of the economy, got hostages released day 1, broke up the Soviet Union, and won back the respect of the world Carter lost

Chizzang wrote:

Bronco wrote:-
6 pages and growing of obama lies

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... se-broken/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He will leave a legacy as the biggest liar to ever live in the white house

Um... you do realize
That entire first page is things he tried to pass but were rejected by congress

You know that right..?

dbackjon wrote:

Jjoey52 wrote:No, he only fixed Carter's mess of the economy, got hostages released day 1, broke up the Soviet Union, and won back the respect of the world Carter lost

What a crock of **** bullshit.


Had the hostages held to ensure his election.
Committed Treason with Iran and the Contras
Ignored the AIDS crisis, condemning tens of thousands of Americans to an early death, while Reagan, and the rest of the right-wing **** laughed about it.
Started the destruction of the middle-class
Set back conservation efforts by decades



In short, one of the worst Presidents in history.

CID1990 wrote:

dbackjon wrote:
What a crock of **** bullshit.


Had the hostages held to ensure his election.
Committed Treason with Iran and the Contras
Ignored the AIDS crisis, condemning tens of thousands of Americans to an early death, while Reagan, and the rest of the right-wing **** laughed about it.
Started the destruction of the middle-class
Set back conservation efforts by decades



In short, one of the worst Presidents in history.

I love the way it drives you moonbats sh1t-crazy that history doesn't remember Reagan that way outside of your echo chamber

dbackjon wrote:

Jjoey52 wrote:No, he only fixed Carter's mess of the economy, got hostages released day 1, broke up the Soviet Union, and won back the respect of the world Carter lost

What a crock of fucking bullshit.


Had the hostages held to ensure his election.
Committed Treason with Iran and the Contras
Ignored the AIDS crisis, condemning tens of thousands of Americans to an early death, while Reagan, and the rest of the right-wing fucks laughed about it.
Started the destruction of the middle-class
Set back conservation efforts by decades



In short, one of the worst Presidents in history.

dbackjon wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
I love the way it drives you moonbats sh1t-crazy that history doesn't remember Reagan that way outside of your echo chamber

Thanks to a coordinated and expensive PR machine. But don't worry, soon everyone but the far right wackos will properly revile Reagan