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I enjoyed this...
In that it reinforces a few points of balance we've all be pondering

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU4_PMmlRpQ[/youtube]

Interesting video.

So did you find this link directly at Bloomberg? Or more likely treehugger.com?

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/sooner-y ... risis.html

I'm all for more electric vehicles. In cities and for commutes they make a lot of sense. Rural areas and longer distances have issues but those can change over time as technology improves. Anything that keeps us from giving money to people that want to kill us makes this even better.

One thing that isn't addressed is how to meet the increased electric load when combined with the EPA's Clean Power Plan carbon regulations.

How much fossil fuel does it take to produce the electric energy for vehicles?

AZGrizFan wrote:How much fossil fuel does it take to produce the electric energy for vehicles?

Um...
The TELSA plant is self powered Solar

Chizzang wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:How much fossil fuel does it take to produce the electric energy for vehicles?

Um...
The TELSA plant is self powered Solar

Really. They use solar to mine the metals used in the cars? Bring the raw materials to their plant? Build the building?

AZGrizFan wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
Um...
The TELSA plant is self powered Solar

Really. They use solar to mine the metals used in the cars? Bring the raw materials to their plant? Build the building?

I see where you're going
But you're arguing about a FIXED cost
and conversion to electric is a "resources over time" calculation

I get it.. it takes oil to make a car
But once it's made that FIXED COST is only a marginal part of the greater equation



I don't think anybody would argue that there aren't fixed costs in this analysis
and in that regard and Oil will be valuable forever

What are the fixed costs to the environment for the Tesla batteries?

Where do those batteries go after becoming useless, and toxic, after 7-8 years?

Cluck U wrote:What are the fixed costs to the environment for the Tesla batteries?

Where do those batteries go after becoming useless, and toxic, after 7-8 years?

In the same pile that we put the plastic bottles
and isn't Tesla corp still using battery serial number 0001 from 2003 (13 years and still going)

HI54UNI wrote:I'm all for more ele. ric vehicles. In cities and for commutes they make a lot of sense. Rural areas and longer distances have issues but those can change over time as technology improves. Anything that keeps us from giving money to people that want to kill us makes this even better.

One thing that isn't addressed is how to meet the increased electric load when combined with the EPA's Clean Power Plan carbon regulations.

We can always build more coal plants.

I think the technology will continue to improve but right now the range and the time required to recharge limit things. If you look a the Tesla Model S, for instance. According to info at https://www.teslamotors.com/models it has range of about 270 miles. Then once you get close to that you have to spend 30 minutes at a "supercharger" station to get another 170 miles (https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger).

I'm going on a driving trip to a destination that's a 1,050 mile drive one way next week. What would that mean if I was driving a Tesla Model S even if I could assume super charging stations would be placed perfectly so that I could stop at the first 270 miles then at 170 mile intervals thereafter? It'd mean 2 hours of recharging on the trip there then another 2 hours charging on the way back. That's best case scenario.

To me, to pass the critical point, they need to get to the point where the range is as far as a person could reasonably drive in a day. Something like maybe 900 miles.

And I think they'll do that eventually. But they're a long way from it now.

Eventually, if we're around long enough, we WILL run out of oil. So at some point, if we're around long enough, we'll have to come up with other sources of energy.

JSO you keep harping at the same example in every electric car thread. If it doesn't suit your needs then don't buy one. However someone in my situation (wife and I both have urban commutes) would absolutely consider an electric car if/when it becomes affordable and feasible. Also we'll always have at leat 2 vehicles at our disposal so it doesn't prevent us from having one real car for those extended vacay's/camping trips.

Pwns wrote:

HI54UNI wrote:I'm all for more ele. ric vehicles. In cities and for commutes they make a lot of sense. Rural areas and longer distances have issues but those can change over time as technology improves. Anything that keeps us from giving money to people that want to kill us makes this even better.

One thing that isn't addressed is how to meet the increased electric load when combined with the EPA's Clean Power Plan carbon regulations.

We can always build more coal plants.

But, but, but global warming.

[quote="JohnStOnge"]I think the technology will continue to improve but right now the range and the time required to recharge limit things. If you look a the Tesla Model S, for instance. According to info at https://www.teslamotors.com/models it has range of about 270 miles. Then once you get close to that you have to spend 30 minutes at a "supercharger" station to get another 170 miles (https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger).

I'm going on a driving trip to a destination that's a 1,050 mile drive one way next week. What would that mean if I was driving a Tesla Model S even if I could assume super charging stations would be placed perfectly so that I could stop at the first 270 miles then at 170 mile intervals thereafter? It'd mean 2 hours of recharging on the trip there then another 2 hours charging on the way back. That's best case scenario.

To me, to pass the critical point, they need to get to the point where the range is as far as a person could reasonably drive in a day. Something like maybe 900 miles.

And I think they'll do that eventually. But they're a long way from it now.

Eventually, if we're around long enough, we WILL run out of oil. So at some point, if we're around long enough, we'll have to come up with other sources of energy.[/quote]
1050 miles one way? Why not fly?

JohnStOnge wrote:I think the technology will continue to improve but right now the range and the time required to recharge limit things. If you look a the Tesla Model S, for instance. According to info at https://www.teslamotors.com/models it has range of about 270 miles. Then once you get close to that you have to spend 30 minutes at a "supercharger" station to get another 170 miles (https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger).

I'm going on a driving trip to a destination that's a 1,050 mile drive one way next week. What would that mean if I was driving a Tesla Model S even if I could assume super charging stations would be placed perfectly so that I could stop at the first 270 miles then at 170 mile intervals thereafter? It'd mean 2 hours of recharging on the trip there then another 2 hours charging on the way back. That's best case scenario.

To me, to pass the critical point, they need to get to the point where the range is as far as a person could reasonably drive in a day. Something like maybe 900 miles.

And I think they'll do that eventually. But they're a long way from it now.

Eventually, if we're around long enough, we WILL run out of oil. So at some point, if we're around long enough, we'll have to come up with other sources of energy.

1050 miles one way? Why not fly?

SDHornet wrote:JSO you keep harping at the same example in every electric car thread. If it doesn't suit your needs then don't buy one. However someone in my situation (wife and I both have urban commutes) would absolutely consider an electric car if/when it becomes affordable and feasible. Also we'll always have at leat 2 vehicles at our disposal so it doesn't prevent us from having one real car for those extended vacay's/camping trips.

You can't haul a load of crap to the dump or go camping in a Camry either. There's lots of things you can't do, just because your car is gas-powered. I've said it on here before....of the 35,000+ miles I drive every year, 33,000 of those are done commuting and could be driven in a Tesla. Easily.

Ibanez wrote:

JohnStOnge wrote:I think the technology will continue to improve but right now the range and the time required to recharge limit things. If you look a the Tesla Model S, for instance. According to info at https://www.teslamotors.com/models it has range of about 270 miles. Then once you get close to that you have to spend 30 minutes at a "supercharger" station to get another 170 miles (https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger).

I'm going on a driving trip to a destination that's a 1,050 mile drive one way next week. What would that mean if I was driving a Tesla Model S even if I could assume super charging stations would be placed perfectly so that I could stop at the first 270 miles then at 170 mile intervals thereafter? It'd mean 2 hours of recharging on the trip there then another 2 hours charging on the way back. That's best case scenario.

To me, to pass the critical point, they need to get to the point where the range is as far as a person could reasonably drive in a day. Something like maybe 900 miles.

And I think they'll do that eventually. But they're a long way from it now.

Eventually, if we're around long enough, we WILL run out of oil. So at some point, if we're around long enough, we'll have to come up with other sources of energy.

1050 miles one way? Why not fly?

He might have to sit next to a Trump supporter on the plane.

AZGrizFan wrote:

SDHornet wrote:JSO you keep harping at the same example in every electric car thread. If it doesn't suit your needs then don't buy one. However someone in my situation (wife and I both have urban commutes) would absolutely consider an electric car if/when it becomes affordable and feasible. Also we'll always have at leat 2 vehicles at our disposal so it doesn't prevent us from having one real car for those extended vacay's/camping trips.

You can't haul a load of crap to the dump or go camping in a Camry either. There's lots of things you can't do, just because your car is gas-powered. I've said it on here before....of the 35,000+ miles I drive every year, 33,000 of those are done commuting and could be driven in a Tesla. Easily.

This. Right now, these are good commuter vehicles. Eventually they'll get the mileage JSO wants.

Chizzang wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:How much fossil fuel does it take to produce the electric energy for vehicles?

Um...
The TELSA plant is self powered Solar

It will be interesting to see if Tesla will release details on energy production and consumption once the plant is built. It will still be connected to the grid and it will use the grid as its battery.

Chizzang wrote:

Cluck U wrote:What are the fixed costs to the environment for the Tesla batteries?

Where do those batteries go after becoming useless, and toxic, after 7-8 years?

In the same pile that we put the plastic bottles
and isn't Tesla corp still using battery serial number 0001 from 2003 (13 years and still going)

So, you could have simply said that you don't have an answer as to the environmental impact of electric cars...from soup to nuts.

AZGrizFan wrote:

SDHornet wrote:JSO you keep harping at the same example in every electric car thread. If it doesn't suit your needs then don't buy one. However someone in my situation (wife and I both have urban commutes) would absolutely consider an electric car if/when it becomes affordable and feasible. Also we'll always have at leat 2 vehicles at our disposal so it doesn't prevent us from having one real car for those extended vacay's/camping trips.

You can't haul a load of crap to the dump or go camping in a Camry either. There's lots of things you can't do, just because your car is gas-powered. I've said it on here before....of the 35,000+ miles I drive every year, 33,000 of those are done commuting and could be driven in a Tesla. Easily.

Probably true for at least 8 out of 10 people.

houndawg wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
You can't haul a load of crap to the dump or go camping in a Camry either. There's lots of things you can't do, just because your car is gas-powered. I've said it on here before....of the 35,000+ miles I drive every year, 33,000 of those are done commuting and could be driven in a Tesla. Easily.

Probably true for at least 8 out of 10 people.

Unfortunately it made a lot more sense financially when gas was $4/gallon. Thanks to Obama though, I don't have to buy one now.

JohnStOnge wrote:I think the technology will continue to improve but right now the range and the time required to recharge limit things. If you look a the Tesla Model S, for instance. According to info at https://www.teslamotors.com/models it has range of about 270 miles. Then once you get close to that you have to spend 30 minutes at a "supercharger" station to get another 170 miles (https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger).

I'm going on a driving trip to a destination that's a 1,050 mile drive one way next week. What would that mean if I was driving a Tesla Model S even if I could assume super charging stations would be placed perfectly so that I could stop at the first 270 miles then at 170 mile intervals thereafter? It'd mean 2 hours of recharging on the trip there then another 2 hours charging on the way back. That's best case scenario.

To me, to pass the critical point, they need to get to the point where the range is as far as a person could reasonably drive in a day. Something like maybe 900 miles.

And I think they'll do that eventually. But they're a long way from it now.

Eventually, if we're around long enough, we WILL run out of oil. So at some point, if we're around long enough, we'll have to come up with other sources of energy.

What type of person drives 900 miles on a daily basis?

DSUrocks07 wrote:

JohnStOnge wrote:I think the technology will continue to improve but right now the range and the time required to recharge limit things. If you look a the Tesla Model S, for instance. According to info at https://www.teslamotors.com/models it has range of about 270 miles. Then once you get close to that you have to spend 30 minutes at a "supercharger" station to get another 170 miles (https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger).

I'm going on a driving trip to a destination that's a 1,050 mile drive one way next week. What would that mean if I was driving a Tesla Model S even if I could assume super charging stations would be placed perfectly so that I could stop at the first 270 miles then at 170 mile intervals thereafter? It'd mean 2 hours of recharging on the trip there then another 2 hours charging on the way back. That's best case scenario.

To me, to pass the critical point, they need to get to the point where the range is as far as a person could reasonably drive in a day. Something like maybe 900 miles.

And I think they'll do that eventually. But they're a long way from it now.

Eventually, if we're around long enough, we WILL run out of oil. So at some point, if we're around long enough, we'll have to come up with other sources of energy.

What type of person drives 900 miles on a daily basis?

Nobody...which is exactly why JSO used that as an example of why electric cars are terrible.

DSUrocks07 wrote:

JohnStOnge wrote:I think the technology will continue to improve but right now the range and the time required to recharge limit things. If you look a the Tesla Model S, for instance. According to info at https://www.teslamotors.com/models it has range of about 270 miles. Then once you get close to that you have to spend 30 minutes at a "supercharger" station to get another 170 miles (https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger).

I'm going on a driving trip to a destination that's a 1,050 mile drive one way next week. What would that mean if I was driving a Tesla Model S even if I could assume super charging stations would be placed perfectly so that I could stop at the first 270 miles then at 170 mile intervals thereafter? It'd mean 2 hours of recharging on the trip there then another 2 hours charging on the way back. That's best case scenario.

To me, to pass the critical point, they need to get to the point where the range is as far as a person could reasonably drive in a day. Something like maybe 900 miles.

And I think they'll do that eventually. But they're a long way from it now.

Eventually, if we're around long enough, we WILL run out of oil. So at some point, if we're around long enough, we'll have to come up with other sources of energy.

What type of person drives 900 miles on a daily basis?

At one point TBH and I were both doing 160ish miles per day in separate cars. At least one Tesla would have been perfect for that.

Now I have 40 miles a day and TBH has 15-20 3 days per week and 50-60 once a week. Tesla would also be perfect for that.

TBH's family is about 80 miles one way. Tesla still works perfect for going there. My parents are a touch over 300, Tesla wouldn't work there.

Really a split of 1 Tesla and 1 gas vehicle would be great for the extreme majority of 2 car homes.