Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

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Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by kalm »

Eric Holder: "OK, well maybe what Snowden did was actually good..."

Edward Snowden ✔ ‎@Snowden
2013: It's treason!
2014: Maybe not, but it was reckless
2015: Still, technically it was unlawful
2016: It was a public service but
2017:
2:23 PM - 30 May 2016
18,520 18,520 Retweets 30,278 30,278 likes

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/us/ho ... .html?_r=0
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by OL FU »

kalm wrote:Eric Holder: "OK, well maybe what Snowden did was actually good..."

Edward Snowden ✔ ‎@Snowden
2013: It's treason!
2014: Maybe not, but it was reckless
2015: Still, technically it was unlawful
2016: It was a public service but
2017:
2:23 PM - 30 May 2016
18,520 18,520 Retweets 30,278 30,278 likes

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/us/ho ... .html?_r=0
Took him awhile huh ;)

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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by GannonFan »

Of course what he did was a public service, I don't think that's ever been really doubted. He did break the law to do it, though, while other, non-criminal ways to do the same thing were available to him. Holder even spoke to that in the interview - he's welcome to come back and go through the legal system and plead his case, or he can continue to live in exile. Choice is really his.
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by Skjellyfetti »

GannonFan wrote:He did break the law to do it, though, while other, non-criminal ways to do the same thing were available to him. Holder even spoke to that in the interview
What were these "non-criminal ways" exactly? :?

Holder says that he should have "gone to Congress with his concerns."

It was illegal for him to download any of the data/evidence in the first place. It would be illegal for him to give any of the evidence to members of Congress, no?

So, he was just supposed to... what? Just write a letter to his Congressman saying he had "concerns" with no evidence?

Do you think he would be taken seriously or anything would be done at all? Without any evidence, he would sound like expandspanos.



So, is there a "non-criminal way to do the same thing" that I'm missing? :?

Or is it just and extremely vague "go to Congress with his concerns"?
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by CID1990 »

You guys are missing the point -and Holder sort of gets it but is too goofy to articulate it properly

Snowden released info on surveillance programs that needed oversight and weren't getting it. - OK. Against the law, but there is a mitigating circumstance there.

If he had just stopped there, then he would have maybe a bit of a leg to stand on at least in terms of having something to bargain with come sentencing time.

The problem is that he didn't just release info on the surveillance.

HE SPEWED GIGABYTES OF UNRELATED CLASSIFIED INFO ALL OVER THE PLACE. HE HAD UNRESTRAINED, CLASSIFIED PROJECTILE DIARRHEA

For him to claim that he somehow did the country a service is like shooting a kidnapper and saving the child he's taking but hitting and killing a school bus full of other kids in the process. And trying to claim hero status because well, at least you saved that one kid

He's guilty of treason and he should get a medal to take to the gas chamber or small cell that he deserves.
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by GannonFan »

CID1990 wrote:You guys are missing the point -and Holder sort of gets it but is too goofy to articulate it properly

Snowden released info on surveillance programs that needed oversight and weren't getting it. - OK. Against the law, but there is a mitigating circumstance there.

If he had just stopped there, then he would have maybe a bit of a leg to stand on at least in terms of having something to bargain with come sentencing time.

The problem is that he didn't just release info on the surveillance.

HE SPEWED GIGABYTES OF UNRELATED CLASSIFIED INFO ALL OVER THE PLACE. HE HAD UNRESTRAINED, CLASSIFIED PROJECTILE DIARRHEA

For him to claim that he somehow did the country a service is like shooting a kidnapper and saving the child he's taking but hitting and killing a school bus full of other kids in the process. And trying to claim hero status because well, at least you saved that one kid

He's guilty of treason and he should get a medal to take to the gas chamber or small cell that he deserves.
I don't think CID and I always agree, but he's right here. Being a whistleblower almost always means you're going to violate a law or a policy or something to get the information out. That's not the point. It's how much you violate the law (granted, subjective) and to what extent you go to to do it. I think CID, with the caps, describes the overreach by Snowden pretty well here.
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote:You guys are missing the point -and Holder sort of gets it but is too goofy to articulate it properly

Snowden released info on surveillance programs that needed oversight and weren't getting it. - OK. Against the law, but there is a mitigating circumstance there.

If he had just stopped there, then he would have maybe a bit of a leg to stand on at least in terms of having something to bargain with come sentencing time.

The problem is that he didn't just release info on the surveillance.

HE SPEWED GIGABYTES OF UNRELATED CLASSIFIED INFO ALL OVER THE PLACE. HE HAD UNRESTRAINED, CLASSIFIED PROJECTILE DIARRHEA

For him to claim that he somehow did the country a service is like shooting a kidnapper and saving the child he's taking but hitting and killing a school bus full of other kids in the process. And trying to claim hero status because well, at least you saved that one kid

He's guilty of treason and he should get a medal to take to the gas chamber or small cell that he deserves.
So that info he spewed was dangerous to the government because...trust us? :suspicious:

And what his method for spewing it?
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by YoUDeeMan »

I'm not a big fan of secrets.

A good chunk of that so-called classified material should never have been classified in the first place.

Technical secrets? Sure...let's not tell China how to defeat our defenses.

But the crap about tapping into other leader's phones, the silly garbage about people talking behind other people's backs, and the fact that we were spying on our own citizens?

The people responsible for classifying that stuff should be taken out and shot. :nod: .

I think Snowden is a hero. Should he have released all of that info? Nope. But he should have released most of it. I'll give him a pass...how was he to go through all of that info to determine what was cheesy, what was dangerous in that it weakened out defenses, and what was dangerous to our own freedom? He couldn't...not enough time.

So, he used the scorched earth tactic instead of staying silent. I applaud him for making that choice. :clap:

Next time, don't put our people in a place where they have to make that decision. Stop abusing power. :nod:
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by OL FU »

He woke us up to the fact that the government can't be trusted.

At least he woke up a small percentage of us.

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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by Skjellyfetti »

CID1990 wrote:
HE SPEWED GIGABYTES OF UNRELATED CLASSIFIED INFO ALL OVER THE PLACE. HE HAD UNRESTRAINED, CLASSIFIED PROJECTILE DIARRHEA

Do you have an example of this?

Maybe missed something - but, my understanding is this was Chelsea Manning and Julian Assange's strategy with whistleblowing - release everything, unedited and let the public do with the info as they may.

Snowden intentionally avoided this - and, I believe he released only ~500 documents... though, he was in possession of 50,000.
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by CID1990 »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
HE SPEWED GIGABYTES OF UNRELATED CLASSIFIED INFO ALL OVER THE PLACE. HE HAD UNRESTRAINED, CLASSIFIED PROJECTILE DIARRHEA

Do you have an example of this?

Maybe missed something - but, my understanding is this was Chelsea Manning and Julian Assange's strategy with whistleblowing - release everything, unedited and let the public do with the info as they may.

Snowden intentionally avoided this - and, I believe he released only ~500 documents... though, he was in possession of 50,000.
Yes he went to China and Russia yet he retained all of the data. .............

Our two biggest geopolitical rivals are in possession of every bit of information he pulled out- and only a minute percentage of it had anything to do with domestic surveillance. His leak exposed methods and assets- on a larger scale than that gender dysphoric fruitcake you call Chelsea.

As for whether or not we "overclassify"- we do. But methods and assets are NEVER overclassified. That's why those things are always top secret or sci, instead of confidential or secret.

If our espionage laws mean anything then Snowden should face life in prison. He had one opportunity to have a mitigating circumstance: only take the NSA domestic surveillance data- and instead he went whole hog.


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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by BDKJMU »

Cluck U wrote:I'm not a big fan of secrets.

A good chunk of that so-called classified material should never have been classified in the first place.

Technical secrets? Sure...let's not tell China how to defeat our defenses.

But the crap about tapping into other leader's phones, the silly garbage about people talking behind other people's backs, and the fact that we were spying on our own citizens?

The people responsible for classifying that stuff should be taken out and shot. :nod: .

I think Snowden is a hero. Should he have released all of that info? Nope. But he should have released most of it. I'll give him a pass...how was he to go through all of that info to determine what was cheesy, what was dangerous in that it weakened out defenses, and what was dangerous to our own freedom? He couldn't...not enough time.

So, he used the scorched earth tactic instead of staying silent. I applaud him for making that choice. :clap:

Next time, don't put our people in a place where they have to make that decision. Stop abusing power. :nod:
No he shouldn't have. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, only a fraction of what he released was the domestic surveillance stuff that got most of the attention from all the simpletons who support Snowden. And if it had been just that, that would have been one thing. But Most of the 1.7 million files released had nothing to do with domestic surveillance but rather with foreign intelligence: assets, collection methods, etc...

At least Snowden won't ever be able to step foot back in the US or any country that has an extradition treaty with the US, as he'll face a near certain life in prison sentence. And he'll always have to sweat the possibility that he could be extradited to the US as part of some future deal..

I agree with Trump on Snowden:
“I think Snowden is a terrible threat, I think he’s a terrible traitor... you know what we used to do to traitors, right?"
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by OL FU »

Do I think he did it the right way I have no clue. Do I blame him for not trusting the government to treat a whistleblower fairly. No. We are forgetting that the government controlled by both parties is ignoring our constitutional protections . The main point is he should not have been put in the position to be a whistle blower. Our leaders are supposed to know better. And yes I realize you can find a court to justify whatever you want . But someone had the balls to bring it to our attention whether he did it the right way or not.

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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by kalm »

BDKJMU wrote:
Cluck U wrote:I'm not a big fan of secrets.

A good chunk of that so-called classified material should never have been classified in the first place.

Technical secrets? Sure...let's not tell China how to defeat our defenses.

But the crap about tapping into other leader's phones, the silly garbage about people talking behind other people's backs, and the fact that we were spying on our own citizens?

The people responsible for classifying that stuff should be taken out and shot. :nod: .

I think Snowden is a hero. Should he have released all of that info? Nope. But he should have released most of it. I'll give him a pass...how was he to go through all of that info to determine what was cheesy, what was dangerous in that it weakened out defenses, and what was dangerous to our own freedom? He couldn't...not enough time.

So, he used the scorched earth tactic instead of staying silent. I applaud him for making that choice. :clap:

Next time, don't put our people in a place where they have to make that decision. Stop abusing power. :nod:
No he shouldn't have. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, only a fraction of what he released was the domestic surveillance stuff that got most of the attention from all the simpletons who support Snowden. And if it had been just that, that would have been one thing. But Most of the 1.7 million files released had nothing to do with domestic surveillance but rather with foreign intelligence: assets, collection methods, etc...

At least Snowden won't ever be able to step foot back in the US or any country that has an extradition treaty with the US, as he'll face a near certain life in prison sentence. And he'll always have to sweat the possibility that he could be extradited to the US as part of some future deal..

I agree with Trump on Snowden:
“I think Snowden is a terrible threat, I think he’s a terrible traitor... you know what we used to do to traitors, right?"
What exactly has been compromised and where are you getting your information from? :suspicious:
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by BDKJMU »

kalm wrote:
BDKJMU wrote:
No he shouldn't have. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, only a fraction of what he released was the domestic surveillance stuff that got most of the attention from all the simpletons who support Snowden. And if it had been just that, that would have been one thing. But Most of the 1.7 million files released had nothing to do with domestic surveillance but rather with foreign intelligence: assets, collection methods, etc...

At least Snowden won't ever be able to step foot back in the US or any country that has an extradition treaty with the US, as he'll face a near certain life in prison sentence. And he'll always have to sweat the possibility that he could be extradited to the US as part of some future deal..

I agree with Trump on Snowden:
“I think Snowden is a terrible threat, I think he’s a terrible traitor... you know what we used to do to traitors, right?"
What exactly has been compromised and where are you getting your information from? :suspicious:
Ever heard of "Google"? :dunce:

"Intel Heads: Edward Snowden Did 'Profound Damage' to U.S. Security
Director of National Intelligence James Clapper:
"What Snowden has stolen and exposed has gone way, way beyond his professed concerns with so-called domestic surveillance programs...What I do want to speak to as the nation's senior intelligence officer is the profound damage that his disclosures have caused and continue to cause. As a consequence, the nation is less safe and its people less secure," Clapper, a retired Air Force lieutenant general, somberly explained...

"CIA Director John Brennan:
said his spies have determined that al Qaeda terrorists "are going to school" with each classified document provided to journalists by Snowden. Brennan said they are aiding al Qaeda with "their counter-intelligence program" because all al Qaeda members have to do is "pick up the papers sometimes or do some Google searches for what has been disclosed and leaked."..The Snowden leaks are "allowing them to burrow in and it's made it much more difficult for us to find them and the threats that they pose,"....

DIA Director Army Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn:
"This has caused grave damage to our national security. The cost [is] to our nation in treasure, in capabilities that are going to have to be examined, reexamined and potentially adjusted. But I think that potentially the greatest cost is unknown today, but we will likely face, is the cost in human lives in tomorrow's battlefield in someplace where we put our military forces in harm's way."..The general said troops may die because of Snowden..

NCTC Director Matthew Olsen.
"What we've seen the last six to eight months is an awareness by these [terrorist] groups...of our ability to monitor communications and specific instances where they've changed the ways in which they communicate to avoid being surveilled or being subject to our surveillance tactics,"
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/intel-hea ... d=22285388
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by BDKJMU »

Here are more specifics from the Brits:

"Snowden leaks 'put spies at risk': May says traitor has damaged intelligence agencies across the world including MI5 and MI6

....Last night, it emerged vital safe houses had also been lost. Security officials have had to abandon buildings used to house top-secret sources for fear they have been compromised – at huge cost to the British taxpayer.

In evidence to MPs, Home Secretary Mrs May said: ‘I assess and so does the director general of MI5 that the Snowden leaks did cause damage.

‘It has had an impact on the ability of our agencies to do the work they need to do. It would be fair to say it has had an impact not just on agencies in the UK.

‘If work has been done to try to mitigate the impact, that uses resources’.

Tory MP Michael Ellis, a member of the home affairs select committee, said: ‘It is clear to me the damage Snowden has done is monumental.

‘Not only has he jeopardised national security by his leaks, but he has also put people at risk and it is clear that he has also caused considerable financial loss.’...

Security officials say IS has seized on the Snowden leaks and has passed on information to its operatives – making it harder to track them down.

Al Qaeda is also known to have pounced on the leaks.

The terror group’s senior operatives have changed the way they communicate to avoid detection.

They have also produced a video tape handed to extremists, passing on tips.

The chilling seven-and-a-half minute video – which includes news footage of Snowden’s massive security breach – provides detailed graphics on how extremists can avoid being trapped by ‘FBI Secret Spying technology’ when communicating.

It also claims to identify technology companies who are co-operating with the UK and other countries so they can be avoided.

There is a list of software packages which can be used to try to thwart GCHQ and the intelligence agencies.

At the same time, GCHQ has lost track of some of Britain’s most dangerous criminals because of the way the fugitive exposed its operations.

Intelligence officials had to stop monitoring drug gangs, paedophiles, human traffickers and money launderers.

Up to a quarter of crime gangs are believed to be going undetected, sources have said.

In other cases, GCHQ has toned down or abandoned surveillance amid fears that the tactics are too easy to spot and could force criminals to ‘go dark’ and fall off the radar completely.

Among the gangs left able to operate unhindered was a drug-smuggling ring which had continued to bring Class A narcotics into Britain.

Ex-MI5 boss Jonathan Evans said the Snowden revelations have left Britain less able to protect itself at a time when the terrorist threat from Islamist fanatics is surging.

Former security minister Lord West said: ‘Since the revelations of the traitor Snowden, terrorist groups – in particular Isil (Islamic State) – have changed their methods of communications and shifted to other ways of talking to each other.
‘Consequently there are people dying who actually would now be alive.’

GCHQ has also warned that some companies had begun advertising internet products that were supposedly ‘Snowden compliant’..."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... 5-MI6.html
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

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CIA's Ex-No. 2 Says ISIS ‘Learned From Snowden’
The former deputy director of the CIA says in a new book that the NSA contractor’s disclosures allowed the forerunners of the terrorist group to evade electronic surveillance.

Edward Snowden’s leaks about U.S. intelligence operations “played a role in the rise of ISIS.” That’s the explosive new allegation from the former deputy director of the CIA, Michael Morell, who was among the United States’ most senior intelligence officials when Snowden began providing highly classified documents to journalists in 2013......

...“Within weeks of the leaks, terrorist organizations around the world were already starting to modify their actions in light of what Snowden disclosed. Communications sources dried up, tactics were changed,” Morell writes. Among the most damaging leaks, he adds, was one that described a program that collects foreigners’ emails as they move through equipment in the United States.

Terrorist groups, including ISIS, have since shifted their communications to more “secure” platforms, are using encryption, or “are avoiding electronic communications altogether.”....
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... owden.html
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

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"How The Press Misled Us Over What Edward Snowden Really Revealed

....Snowden supporters claim none of the stories have damaged national security, but on the face of it this stretches common sense. For instance, a review by Associated Press in February 2014 found that six NSA employees had been accidentally named in the Snowden reporting due to redaction errors.

Snowden has exposed NSA efforts to spy on China, but the US does that for very good reasons and none of those stories presented any evidence the NSA was engaged in anything other than legitimate espionage activity.

Snowden didn’t just give the South China Morning Post information about the NSA’s operations against Hong Kong and ‘the mainland’, i.e. China itself – self-evidently damaging US national security in the process – but also showed reporter Lana Lam documents in an online interview he had with her and gave specific intelligence about NSA targets’ IP addresses and dates of activity...."
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... -revealed/
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

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Just as I thought. You don't like Snowden purely due to politics and you rely upon the likes of Breitbart and the ever loving and benificent government to fuel your fire... Shocker! :shock:

Mistrust the Obama administration and everything government except for this because...'Murica!!!!

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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by YoUDeeMan »

The above info posted by BDK is hilarious.

All bluster..and no details? Gosh, the details of Snowden's released secrets are already out...and the bad guys have them, and can access many more with a simple Google.

But hey, we won't actually tell you what was leaked...even though supposedly every one of our bad guys know. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Obama has gone on TV and exposed many of our secret tactics.

Is he in jail?

No.

Why?

Because he is above the law.

Hillary, ironically, wants to keep her e-mails secret...from US...and ends up giving top secret info to a bunch of our enemies.

Is she going to jail?

No.

Why?

Because she is above the law.

And yet Snowden should go to jail for life? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The NSA screwed up. They abused their power on so many levels it is sickening. Anyone, and everyone, who signed off on their operations should be executed. That is the story here...not Snowden's releasing of secrets.
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by CID1990 »

Cluck U wrote:The above info posted by BDK is hilarious.

All bluster..and no details? Gosh, the details of Snowden's released secrets are already out...and the bad guys have them, and can access many more with a simple Google.

But hey, we won't actually tell you what was leaked...even though supposedly every one of our bad guys know. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Obama has gone on TV and exposed many of our secret tactics.

Is he in jail?

No.

Why?

Because he is above the law.

Hillary, ironically, wants to keep her e-mails secret...from US...and ends up giving top secret info to a bunch of our enemies.

Is she going to jail?

No.

Why?

Because she is above the law.

And yet Snowden should go to jail for life? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The NSA screwed up. They abused their power on so many levels it is sickening. Anyone, and everyone, who signed off on their operations should be executed. That is the story here...not Snowden's releasing of secrets.
I prefer to say that both Clinton and Snowden should go to jail, rather than saying that neither of them should.

Again- Snowden did much, much more than simply exposed NSA domestic surveillance.

Of course there is a double standard for the powerful- it has always been that way. Just watch the DoJ not charge Hillary solely for political reasons. The same way that the DOJ opted not to prosecute Huma Abedin for embezzlement at the State Department or Eric Holder for contempt of Congress.

But to suggest that we throw the baby out with the bath water- i.e: give Snowden a pass, is the same thing as the Clinton campaign comparing Hillary's email activities with Colin Powell's.

BTW I agree with you- a couple executions for the NSA surveillance program would send a less than subtle message. I say throw a couple of them in the same pit with Snowden.
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by BDKJMU »

kalm wrote:Just as I thought. You don't like Snowden purely due to politics and you rely upon the likes of Breitbart and the ever loving and benificent government to fuel your fire... Shocker! :shock:

Mistrust the Obama administration and everything government except for this because...'Murica!!!!

:dunce: :rofl:
You conveniently crticize my use of Bretbairt but ignore the fact that in addition to the 2 conservative sources I also used 2 liberal ones in ABC & The Daily Beast. :dunce:

Yeah, all the head intel folks (US and British) are just making this up and no harm done by Snowden...nothing to see here, move along.. :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:
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CID1990
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:Just as I thought. You don't like Snowden purely due to politics and you rely upon the likes of Breitbart and the ever loving and benificent government to fuel your fire... Shocker! :shock:

Mistrust the Obama administration and everything government except for this because...'Murica!!!!

:dunce: :rofl:
This is a creative and elaborate tapout
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote:
kalm wrote:Just as I thought. You don't like Snowden purely due to politics and you rely upon the likes of Breitbart and the ever loving and benificent government to fuel your fire... Shocker! :shock:

Mistrust the Obama administration and everything government except for this because...'Murica!!!!

:dunce: :rofl:
This is a creative and elaborate tapout
So feel free to point out EXACTLY how Snowden's disclosure harmed us. You can't because it would have to come from the Obama administration. You know...that evil government that should not be trusted except in this case.
Before accepting such claims at face value, let’s remind ourselves of what the leaks so far have not contained. They didn’t reveal anything about the algorithms that the N.S.A. uses, the groups or individuals that the agency targets, or the identities of U.S. agents. They didn’t contain the contents of any U.S. military plans, or of any conversations between U.S. or foreign officials. As Glenn Greenwald, one of the journalists who broke the story, pointed out on “Morning Joe” today, this wasn’t a WikiLeaks-style data dump. “[Snowden] spent months meticulously studying every document,” Greenwald said. “He didn’t just upload them to the Internet.”
http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cass ... -is-a-hero
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Re: Snowden Leaks: a Public Service

Post by kalm »

BDKJMU wrote:
kalm wrote:Just as I thought. You don't like Snowden purely due to politics and you rely upon the likes of Breitbart and the ever loving and benificent government to fuel your fire... Shocker! :shock:

Mistrust the Obama administration and everything government except for this because...'Murica!!!!

:dunce: :rofl:
You conveniently crticize my use of Bretbairt but ignore the fact that in addition to the 2 conservative sources I also used 2 liberal ones in ABC & The Daily Beast. :dunce:

Yeah, all the head intel folks (US and British) are just making this up and no harm done by Snowden...nothing to see here, move along.. :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:
So now you want me to trust the liberal main stream media too?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Hint: ABC and the Daily Beast are establishment media who crave access. Tina Brown is on Morning Joe weekly sucking up to the administration. Their livelihood depends on not ruffling feathers too much inside the beltway.

Again...the only thing you have is to trust the msm and the government. Oh the irony!!!

:lol:
Last edited by kalm on Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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