Brexit Thread

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby Grizalltheway » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:14 pm

SDHornet wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote:It would have made sense from a democratic point-of-view if implemented immediately. It doesn't make sense three years later when polling shows double-digit support for staying in the EU.

Even if the UK did leave in 2016 or 2017, I think they would have eventually rejoined as new generations took over in leadership positions. Young people have particularly benefited from EU.

The irony of the Brexit issue is that the EU needs England more than England needs the EU. Most of the EU countries are "takers", while England and a couple others (Germany, France, and maybe someone else) carries most of the weight financially.

The last Theresa May deal failed because it essentially kept England in the EU without a seat at the table. It would have been disastrous for them if approved. No idea where it goes from here but it should be fun to watch.

You've got it backasswards. Britain's economy is going to take a MASSIVE hit if they actually go through with it.

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby SDHornet » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:25 pm

Grizalltheway wrote:
SDHornet wrote:Lots of Nationalism going on in Eastern Europe (thanks to the migration from the ME for that). Also Brazil seems to be getting a taste too...they probably want to ensure that don't end up like their failed state brethren to the north.

Interesting times indeed.

Yeah, another military dictatorship is just what Brazil needs. :lol:

Sometimes **** works, take Egypt for example.

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby GannonFan » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:47 am

∞∞∞ wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
Of course, you're also of the mindset that your generation has been screwed by the globalism agenda that has played a part in making jobs for your generation, especially jobs to pay the large college loans you took out, hard to come by. The conflict in your head must be significant. Ferris Bueller was way ahead of his time with his idea that people shouldn't believe in an -ism. :lol:

Not globalization, just the policies which have misused its benefits.

Try again...


Hey, you're barking up the wrong tree here. I'm a free-trader and a big proponent of globalism in almost all of its forms. But you have to have your head in the sand (or in your parent's basement) if you don't appreciate the unanswered questions of what to do with the wide swaths of people that could be economic casualties of globalization. Politicians like to talk about retraining programs and the such to help workers who are suddenly no longer necessary at what they do once jobs are relocated to a lower cost region (and typically out of country) but that's just politician-speak to gloss over a problem that doesn't have a very good answer right now. What do you do with people who don't have the skills or the means to be successful in the new globalized world and how do governments deal with that in the long term. And before you snidely throw out one of your typical "old people should just die off" tropes, remember, it's your generation that is not even getting started because they too are too many for the jobs that are out there.

Like I said, there's no doubt that free trade and globalization are the ways to go and there's no real turning back on that (despite what kalmie would like to think with his Trumpian economic views), but there's also no doubt that we don't have all the answers of how to work out the problems that are and will arise in that reality.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby ∞∞∞ » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:47 pm

Universal Basic Income.

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby ALPHAGRIZ1 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:50 pm

∞∞∞ wrote:Universal Basic Income.

We already have that its called a **** job!
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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby 89Hen » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:51 pm

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby GannonFan » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:21 pm

∞∞∞ wrote:Universal Basic Income.

Awesome. Explain.

How much does everyone get? How does it tie into inflation? Do rich people get a UBI too? What if someone spends their UBI before they get their next UBI payment and needs money? What if on the UBI a person can't afford a cell phone, cable (or the cost of cord cutting), a car, gas for the car, etc? How do we factor children into this? Will people on UBI be allowed to have children? Will housing prices be restricted so as not to greatly exceed the reach of people who just receive the UBI and nothing more? Where will that housing be? Estimates are that a basic UBI would be at least a 50% increase in annual government expenditures, at least at the beginning. Do we cut anything or just print the money? If certain job sectors begin to go understaffed how do we compensate?
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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby Skjellyfetti » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:36 pm

"The unmasking thing was all created by Devin Nunes"
- Richard Burr, (R-NC)

Cid1990 wrote:It is going to be a sad day for a lot of people when all that comes of all of this is Flynn getting whacked.

Mueller is going to take a beating on the left before this business is over

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby GannonFan » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:18 pm

Skjellyfetti wrote:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/NegativeIncomeTax.html


Great. Did you read your link? It's summed up by this quote:
The appeal of a negative income tax lives on. And so do its many problems.


Care to wade into the messy problems and provide solutions? I know it's not nearly as fun as a pithy retort but it would be far more useful to the discussion. Imagine that.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby JohnStOnge » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:37 pm

Well, this certainly doesn't look like it's going to end well for Great Britain.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby Ivytalk » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:47 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:Well, this certainly doesn't look like it's going to end well for Great Britain.


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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby CID1990 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:48 pm

GannonFan wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/NegativeIncomeTax.html


Great. Did you read your link? It's summed up by this quote:
The appeal of a negative income tax lives on. And so do its many problems.


Care to wade into the messy problems and provide solutions? I know it's not nearly as fun as a pithy retort but it would be far more useful to the discussion. Imagine that.


Ganny - good luck

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby JohnStOnge » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:03 pm

Ivytalk wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:Well, this certainly doesn't look like it's going to end well for Great Britain.


Find some way to blame Trump.


That one wasn't his fault. But I think the sociological phenomenon that led to it is similar in certain respects to the one that led to us ending up with Trump as President.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby CID1990 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:10 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:
Find some way to blame Trump.


That one wasn't his fault. But I think the sociological phenomenon that led to it is similar in certain respects to the one that led to us ending up with Trump as President.


You are correct on that one -

Brexit and Trump are symptoms of diseases many people do not want to confront

There's a lot of that right here in this here thread
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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby Pwns » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:58 am

Brexit certainly doesn't look sexy right now, but what happens if we have another global financial crisis? Basically Germany and France will be more-or-less on their own to help prop up countries like Portugal, Spain, Greece, and maybe even Italy while the UK will just sit back and watch the whole spectacle.

Between that consideration and mass assimilation-less migration that has created political polarization, I think EU dissolution is inevitable. Could be 5 years or 20 years, but it'll happen. Heck Sweden seems to be quietly weighing their options for a "Swexit" now, and I'm sure they aren't the only ones.
We get the government we deserve. :nod:

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby SDHornet » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:46 pm

Grizalltheway wrote:
SDHornet wrote:The irony of the Brexit issue is that the EU needs England more than England needs the EU. Most of the EU countries are "takers", while England and a couple others (Germany, France, and maybe someone else) carries most of the weight financially.

The last Theresa May deal failed because it essentially kept England in the EU without a seat at the table. It would have been disastrous for them if approved. No idea where it goes from here but it should be fun to watch.

You've got it backasswards. Britain's economy is going to take a MASSIVE hit if they actually go through with it.

Maybe initially, but then they will be free to make any trade deals they want with any other nation so long as they are within the WTO rules and regs. Seems like GB would be better in the long term without the EU dictating their trade deal details.

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby Skjellyfetti » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:17 pm

GannonFan wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/NegativeIncomeTax.html


Great. Did you read your link? It's summed up by this quote:
The appeal of a negative income tax lives on. And so do its many problems.


Care to wade into the messy problems and provide solutions? I know it's not nearly as fun as a pithy retort but it would be far more useful to the discussion. Imagine that.


Was that really a pithy retort?

I think it's a good overview. I could have found an article that spoke with glowing language and ignored any problems associated with a negative income tax. But, I think that one does a good job looking at the strengths and weaknesses.

And, no I don't think it's a perfect solution. There is none. I think it's an interesting idea that came from the right.

Did I miss you suggesting a solution?
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Cid1990 wrote:It is going to be a sad day for a lot of people when all that comes of all of this is Flynn getting whacked.

Mueller is going to take a beating on the left before this business is over

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby GannonFan » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:40 am

Just proving again that politicians are really great at constantly re-using trite phrases and sayings, kinda like how people will rush to label something "Nazi" just to smear the other side. This is the same phrase Madeleine Albright used to smear any woman who dared to vote against Hillary in the last election, just tweaked this time for the Brexit debate.

European Council President Donald Tusk has spoken of a "special place in hell" for "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely".


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47143135
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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby Skjellyfetti » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:29 pm

:lol:

Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal for a second time
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47547887

No Deal vote tomorrow.
Extension vote on Thursday.
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Cid1990 wrote:It is going to be a sad day for a lot of people when all that comes of all of this is Flynn getting whacked.

Mueller is going to take a beating on the left before this business is over

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby JohnStOnge » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:07 pm

I think we have reached the point where we can say that the British who voted for Brexit really screwed up. I would bet that if they could have a do-over Brexit would lose by a substantial margin.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby Pwns » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:48 pm

Choose a button:

(O) Brexit shows how Democracy sucks
(O) Right-wing brexiters are endangering Democracy!
We get the government we deserve. :nod:

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby ALPHAGRIZ1 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:03 pm

SDHornet wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:You've got it backasswards. Britain's economy is going to take a MASSIVE hit if they actually go through with it.

Maybe initially, but then they will be free to make any trade deals they want with any other nation so long as they are within the WTO rules and regs. Seems like GB would be better in the long term without the EU dictating their trade deal details.

Yep they will BOOM because they got out of that shitbox.

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby SDHornet » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:29 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:I think we have reached the point where we can say that the British who voted for Brexit really screwed up. I would bet that if they could have a do-over Brexit would lose by a substantial margin.

Not really, more like the politicians not following through on what the voters want...kind of like when we heard conks bitch and moan about Obamacare and then have no plan or any idea (or balls) to repeal it.

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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby JohnStOnge » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:42 pm

SDHornet wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:I think we have reached the point where we can say that the British who voted for Brexit really screwed up. I would bet that if they could have a do-over Brexit would lose by a substantial margin.

Not really, more like the politicians not following through on what the voters want...kind of like when we heard conks bitch and moan about Obamacare and then have no plan or any idea (or balls) to repeal it.


I think with Brexit we have a situation in which people who supported it and argued for voting for it were not honest with people about what it would entail. Or maybe they didn't think enough about what it would entail either. Either way I think the British people who voted for it generally did not understand what it would mean.
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Re: Brexit Thread

Postby Skjellyfetti » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:57 pm

Brexit and Trumpism Have Failed Because Conservative Populism Is a Lie

“They will soon be calling me MR. BREXIT!,” announced Donald Trump in the summer of 2016. Before long, Trump was calling himself that, after appearing at a rally with Nigel Farage, one of its champions.

The association with Brexit burnished Trump’s self-styled (and utterly fabricated) reputation as a soothsayer. More importantly, the connection seemed to confirm that Trump represented something larger: a wave of conservative populism sweeping the Western world.

And yet the collapse of Brexit, yet again, reveals another, less flattering commonality. Conservative populism has utterly failed to translate the political impulses behind them into a plausible governing agenda. It is a visceral reaction against multiculturalism and modernity that has not only failed to produce concrete solutions for its supporters, but doesn’t even know what to ask for.

The political phenomenon of conservative populism has created a demand for philosophical treatises to justify it. The conservative intelligentsia has been engaged in a comic process of backfilling in high-minded arguments to support the rise of Trump. The pro-Trump media is dominated by lowbrow right-wing infotainment, like Fox News and Breitbart — media that are simple and accessible enough for Trump himself to enjoy.

But the vast apparatus of conservative intellectuals also needs essays and lectures pitched at a higher level, in order to sustain its own sense of elitism. There’s no need to raise millions of dollars for think tanks and endowed chairs if the party’s thought process begins and ends with Sean Hannity’s sock-puppet routine. The Journal of American Greatness was founded in 2016 for this specific purpose — defining a populist conservatism that would resemble whatever it is Trump is trying to do.

The right has put its finest minds to the task of turning its irritable mental gestures into something resembling ideas. Peter Berkowitz, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, delivered a lecture at the Manhattan Institute that was adapted for publication in the City Journal. Its theme, implicitly rebuking conservatives who might feel some discomfort with Trump’s vulgarity and open bigotry, was that conservatives have always made common cause with populists. Trump has declared, “I have a gut and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me.” Berkowitz restates Trump’s ethos more elegantly. “Conservatives have tended to recognize the unruliness of the passions and the limits of reason. They believe that recondite reflection and abstract theory tend to obscure practical matters; as a guide to politics, conservatives strongly prefer experience and practical wisdom,” he argues. “Burke allied with the people against ‘the political men of letters’ — the progressive public intellectuals of his day.”


Berkowitz builds his essay on the premise that the working class has become disaffected with “an imperious ruling elite.” Yet he offers nothing in the way of substance to flesh it out, gesturing only at familiar bromides (“individual freedom, limited government, free markets, robust civil society, and a strong America in the international arena”) as the eternal course.

He fails to acknowledge Trump won these voters in large part by distancing himself from the right, promising universal health care, lower prescription-drug prices, cracking down on Wall Street, ending the carried-interest loophole, and other ideologically unorthodox moves. But he has abandoned all these ideas in favor of a rehash of George W. Bush’s domestic agenda. This has helped persuade Republican legislators to overlook his misconduct, but taken a toll on Trump’s popularity.

The populist promises that set Trump apart during both the primary and the general election have simply failed to materialize. Trump’s budget, which proposes cuts to Medicare and Medicaid that he had famously pledged to oppose, is the latest evidence that he has simply defaulted to traditional movement conservatism.

Conservative populism has followed the same course in the United Kingdom and the United States. Right-wing politicians attached expansive promises to retrograde cultural panic to gain power, and once given a chance to follow through, have managed to deliver only the latter. These movements justified themselves as an authentic rebellion against the experts. The experts warned the promises were impossible. It turns out they knew what they were talking about.


http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/ ... ulism.html
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Cid1990 wrote:It is going to be a sad day for a lot of people when all that comes of all of this is Flynn getting whacked.

Mueller is going to take a beating on the left before this business is over


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