Brexit Thread

Political discussions
Ivytalk
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 26827
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:22 pm
I am a fan of: Salisbury University
Location: Republic of Western Sussex

Re: RE: Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Ivytalk »

UNI88 wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote: Progressivism/Liberalism/Socialism doesn't work because (and this is a crazy concept) the human species is ambitious/greedy.

It's just an annoying philosophy that delays the inevitable.
FYP

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Well done! :clap:
“I’m tired and done.” — 89Hen 3/27/22.
User avatar
CID1990
Level5
Level5
Posts: 25460
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:40 am
I am a fan of: Pie
A.K.A.: CID 1990
Location: กรุงเทพมหานคร

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by CID1990 »

BDKJMU wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
It would've mean pretty much status quo continuation of things as they were going without much disruption. If Hillary had gotten elected the economy would be pretty much in the same place as it is now. Our international relationships would be better. We as a nation would be more respected than we are now. We would've had two Center-Left Supreme Court Justices added to the Supreme Court instead of two Solid-Right Justices. And the Republican Party would not be as damaged as it is now in terms of credibility. The Federal budget deficit would probably be smaller. We would have someone qualified for the job in the President's position. And the person in the President's position would not be mentally ill.

The country would be better off right now if Hillary Clinton had been elected President. I prefer two Solid-Right Justices over two Center-Left ones but just about everything else would be as good or better as it is now if that were the case.
Baloney. With Cliton would have had:
1. 2 liberal SCOTUS judges instead of 2 conservative ones.
2. Numerous more liberal Circuit judges vs the conservative ones that Trump has nominated and have been confirmed or will be.
3. No tax cuts.
4. Softer on Illegal Immigration
5. Still have the Obamacare mandate.
6. No renegotiation of NAFTA (United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement).
7. Nothing being done about China (massive trade deficit with them, Chinese tarriffs on US goods, China manipulating their currency, China committ massive state sponsored economic espionage against the US). Clinton would have been doing the same as Bush and Obama- that is not a damn thing.
8. We’d still have the terrible Iran deal.
9. Wouldn’t have pulled out of the Paris Climate deal.
10. Wouldn’t have gotten deadbeat NATO countries to pledge to pay more.
11. Wouldn’t be pulling out of Syria
12. Wouldn’t have opened a dialogue with North Korea

Plus I don’t believe the stock market would be as high, or unemployment as low, if Clinton had won, but can’t prove that.
All of the above is just off the top of my head. There’s more..
With Clinton as President nobody would know who Paul Manafort was


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"You however, are an insufferable ankle biting mental chihuahua..." - Clizzoris
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 20313
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by JohnStOnge »

BDKJMU wrote: Baloney. With Cliton would have had:
1. 2 liberal SCOTUS judges instead of 2 conservative ones.
Yes.
2.
Numerous more liberal Circuit judges vs the conservative ones that Trump has nominated and have been confirmed or will be.
Yes.
3. No tax cuts.
Yes. But we also would not have larger deficits because a political Party misled people by arguing in the face of all structured analyses that the tax cuts would not result in a decline in the rate of revenue increase then followed up by increasing spending.
4. Softer on Illegal Immigration
Smarter on illegal immigration.
5. Still have the Obamacare mandate.
Yes. We would not have a situation whereby the requirements for insuring people are still there but the inventive for low risk people to stay in the pool is gone.
6. No renegotiation of NAFTA (United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement).
How that turns out remains to be seen, but the narrative that NAFTA was bad for us was a false one.
7. Nothing being done about China (massive trade deficit with them, Chinese tarriffs on US goods, China manipulating their currency, China committ massive state sponsored economic espionage against the US). Clinton would have been doing the same as Bush and Obama- that is not a damn thing.
Trade with China has been good for the typical person in the United States. Way more positive than negative. What's going on now is not good.
8. We’d still have the terrible Iran deal.
I did not agree with making the Iran deal, but it was made. What Trump did hurt our credibility as a nation. The other party was living up to its end of the deal and we did not live up to ours.
9. Wouldn’t have pulled out of the Paris Climate deal.
See comments on 8.
10. Wouldn’t have gotten deadbeat NATO countries to pledge to pay more.
We'll see how that turns out but the mentality holding that NATO is a losing proposition for us; as though we were being "taken," is false. We have benefitted greatly. We WANT to have troops stationed all over the place like that. We're not doing it because we want to be nice.
11. Wouldn’t be pulling out of Syria
Another move that hurts our credibility and betrays people who trusted us.
12. Wouldn’t have opened a dialogue with North Korea
Total show that means nothing. Trump is being played.
Plus I don’t believe the stock market would be as high, or unemployment as low, if Clinton had won, but can’t prove that.
If I had to bet I'd bet the stock market is a little higher than it would be but not by much. I think the unemployment rate would be about the same. What I do know with certainty is that the stock market had been generally rising and the unemployment rate generally declining for about 7 years before Trump got elected so there was no change in the basic direction of either of those things.

One of these days I need to educate myself on the details of his "regulatory reform." I think there's a good chance of identifying some really bad decisions on that front. I don't think that because I didn't think before that we needed some regulatory reform. I think it because Trump and the people around him are reckless and regulation is necessary. I would be very comfortable betting that they did some foolish things in terms of regulatory elimination.

All of the above is just off the top of my head. There’s more..[/quote]
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
User avatar
CID1990
Level5
Level5
Posts: 25460
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:40 am
I am a fan of: Pie
A.K.A.: CID 1990
Location: กรุงเทพมหานคร

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by CID1990 »

I’m not quoting all that garbage

You’re wrong on NATO.

It is antiquated. It is a money suck. Our “allies” take advantage of us.

We have zero reason to be in Europe. Russia has an economy the size of Italy, and a conventional war with them would be won by Germany, France, and Poland in a matter of months.

They have more nukes than us. That’s their only advantage. Should we have the bulk of our defenses in Europe where we cannot support them, or at home where they belong... actually defending the US?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"You however, are an insufferable ankle biting mental chihuahua..." - Clizzoris
User avatar
SDHornet
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19443
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:50 pm
I am a fan of: Sacramento State Hornets

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by SDHornet »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
Reminds me of you in the Trump Russian collusion thread following all the narrative implosions over the last 2 years. :lol:

Oh, and I'm the guy in the silver car that is about to run your dumb ass over. 8-)
User avatar
SDHornet
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19443
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:50 pm
I am a fan of: Sacramento State Hornets

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by SDHornet »

CID1990 wrote:I’m not quoting all that garbage
This.

Hey JSO ready for a nice little mind fuck? Well, you claim NAFTA wasn't that bad for us, guess what, NAFTA played a large role in getting Trump elected.


Good luck spinning your way out of that one. You're welcome. :lol: 8-)
User avatar
Pwns
Level4
Level4
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Friggin' Southern
A.K.A.: FCS_pwns_FBS (AGS)

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Pwns »

Come on, JSO. If any R other than Trump were in office, there's ZERO chance you would care about the "credibility" of the country on issues like the Paris pinky promise, Iran deal, and the NATO thing.

When you basically can't name a thing a president has done that you like, you're in derangement syndrome territory.
Celebrate Diversity.*
*of appearance only. Restrictions apply.
Ivytalk
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 26827
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:22 pm
I am a fan of: Salisbury University
Location: Republic of Western Sussex

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Ivytalk »

Pwns wrote:Come on, JSO. If any R other than Trump were in office, there's ZERO chance you would care about the "credibility" of the country on issues like the Paris pinky promise, Iran deal, and the NATO thing.

When you basically can't name a thing a president has done that you like, you're in derangement syndrome territory.
I think he grudgingly agrees with Trump’s judicial picks. But that doesn’t diminish his TDS street cred, because he thinks federal judges are tyrants no matter who appointed them.
“I’m tired and done.” — 89Hen 3/27/22.
∞∞∞
Level5
Level5
Posts: 12297
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:30 am

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Opinion:
Brexit Britain has reached populism’s inevitable terminus. The government is collapsing as Conservative ministers vote against their own administration with impunity. The equally chaotic opposition cannot oppose. No one can say whether my country will crash out of the European Union provoking an economic and social crisis. Honest commentators don’t make predictions anymore, but stare at the wreckage with slack-jawed disbelief...

...The British crisis is deeper than the United States’ because at its heart lies a failure of truth-telling. We have no equivalent of the Democrat-controlled House of Representatives; no power center or coherent voice that can expose the populist politicians whose combination of cynicism and magical thinking led us to this pass...

...Like populist movements across the West, the Leave campaign refused to make a tough call. Instead, it promised that wrenching change could be achieved without pain. Unlike the nationalists of the 20th century, who fetishized sacrifice, their successors are the authentic representatives of a baby-boomer generation that wants to have it all. Boris Johnson, an upper-class politician who could make President Trump seem a model of integrity, and his fellow supporters of Brexit promised that the task of securing a fresh trade deal with the E.U. would be “one of the easiest in human history.” As it has turned out, the tension of reconciling the populist propaganda of the referendum campaign with protecting the economy has caused a nervous breakdown in politics, and the real negotiations haven’t even begun yet. Meanwhile, British exceptionalists, like their American counterparts, insisted that other countries would bow before us. We were repeatedly assured that the E.U. needed us more than we needed them, a brag that grows more absurd by the day...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... c2a091e713
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 20313
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by JohnStOnge »

Pwns wrote:Come on, JSO. If any R other than Trump were in office, there's ZERO chance you would care about the "credibility" of the country on issues like the Paris pinky promise, Iran deal, and the NATO thing.

When you basically can't name a thing a president has done that you like, you're in derangement syndrome territory.
I think you need to look at the response to which you're referring again. And yes I would care about our country honoring its word. The time to debate what that word is is before it is given. You don't give your word then go back on it.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
User avatar
CID1990
Level5
Level5
Posts: 25460
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:40 am
I am a fan of: Pie
A.K.A.: CID 1990
Location: กรุงเทพมหานคร

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by CID1990 »

The biggest benefit of Brexit is that it is a cautionary tale against nations signing away their sovereignty to a disinterested coalition for economic benefits.

It is giving away liberty for security on a macro scale.

Fortunately, I think Brexit is poisoning the well against this for at least another 100 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"You however, are an insufferable ankle biting mental chihuahua..." - Clizzoris
User avatar
mainejeff
Level4
Level4
Posts: 5385
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:43 am
I am a fan of: Maine
A.K.A.: mainejeff

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by mainejeff »

∞∞∞ wrote:Opinion:
Brexit Britain has reached populism’s inevitable terminus. The government is collapsing as Conservative ministers vote against their own administration with impunity. The equally chaotic opposition cannot oppose. No one can say whether my country will crash out of the European Union provoking an economic and social crisis. Honest commentators don’t make predictions anymore, but stare at the wreckage with slack-jawed disbelief...

...The British crisis is deeper than the United States’ because at its heart lies a failure of truth-telling. We have no equivalent of the Democrat-controlled House of Representatives; no power center or coherent voice that can expose the populist politicians whose combination of cynicism and magical thinking led us to this pass...

...Like populist movements across the West, the Leave campaign refused to make a tough call. Instead, it promised that wrenching change could be achieved without pain. Unlike the nationalists of the 20th century, who fetishized sacrifice, their successors are the authentic representatives of a baby-boomer generation that wants to have it all. Boris Johnson, an upper-class politician who could make President Trump seem a model of integrity, and his fellow supporters of Brexit promised that the task of securing a fresh trade deal with the E.U. would be “one of the easiest in human history.” As it has turned out, the tension of reconciling the populist propaganda of the referendum campaign with protecting the economy has caused a nervous breakdown in politics, and the real negotiations haven’t even begun yet. Meanwhile, British exceptionalists, like their American counterparts, insisted that other countries would bow before us. We were repeatedly assured that the E.U. needed us more than we needed them, a brag that grows more absurd by the day...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... c2a091e713
"Unlike the nationalists of the 20th century, who fetishized sacrifice, their successors are the authentic representatives of a baby-boomer generation that wants to have it all."

:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
Go Black Bears!
User avatar
CID1990
Level5
Level5
Posts: 25460
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:40 am
I am a fan of: Pie
A.K.A.: CID 1990
Location: กรุงเทพมหานคร

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by CID1990 »

"You however, are an insufferable ankle biting mental chihuahua..." - Clizzoris
User avatar
Winterborn
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 8812
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:33 pm
I am a fan of: Beer and Diesel Pickups
Location: Wherever I hang my hat

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Winterborn »

CID1990 wrote:Powerful stuff from Hitchens

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... ation.html
The bit I read of the article was good. But there was a distraction that kept me from finishing it......

Image
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
Ivytalk
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 26827
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:22 pm
I am a fan of: Salisbury University
Location: Republic of Western Sussex

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Ivytalk »

CID1990 wrote:Powerful stuff from Hitchens

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... ation.html
Not the resurrected Chris. The other one.
“I’m tired and done.” — 89Hen 3/27/22.
User avatar
GannonFan
Level5
Level5
Posts: 18033
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:51 am
I am a fan of: Delaware
A.K.A.: Non-Partisan Hack

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by GannonFan »

CID1990 wrote:Powerful stuff from Hitchens

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... ation.html
The sentiment in this article is right on and pretty much the same thing that happened here that got us Trump and the same thing happening to Macron in France. The masses who are left behind (employment, vacations, luxuries, schools, etc) do eventually grow weary of the successful elites thumbing their noses at them (cue the irredeemable basket of deplorables, or, in French, giletes jaunes) and they'll pick chaos over more elitism. It may not make a lot of sense and in the end it doesn't improve their lot in life, but I guess if they thought things weren't going to get better anyway then they might as well stick it to the elite.
Proud Member of the Blue Hen Nation
User avatar
Winterborn
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 8812
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:33 pm
I am a fan of: Beer and Diesel Pickups
Location: Wherever I hang my hat

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Winterborn »

GannonFan wrote:
CID1990 wrote:Powerful stuff from Hitchens

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... ation.html
The sentiment in this article is right on and pretty much the same thing that happened here that got us Trump and the same thing happening to Macron in France. The masses who are left behind (employment, vacations, luxuries, schools, etc) do eventually grow weary of the successful elites thumbing their noses at them (cue the irredeemable basket of deplorables, or, in French, giletes jaunes) and they'll pick chaos over more elitism. It may not make a lot of sense and in the end it doesn't improve their lot in life, but I guess if they thought things weren't going to get better anyway then they might as well stick it to the elite.
Can't say I blame them. Even a mouse when backed into a corner is going to fight to get free. Scorched earth does have a nice poetic ring to it.

And the elite make convenient scapegoats, even though it was the lack of awareness and foresight from the masses that put them there in the first place. Too many choices of this is good in the short term vs. what is best long term. IMHO.
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
∞∞∞
Level5
Level5
Posts: 12297
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:30 am

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Parliament passed a bill today which disallows a no-deal Brexit.

Chance of a second referendum is increasing by the day.
User avatar
GannonFan
Level5
Level5
Posts: 18033
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:51 am
I am a fan of: Delaware
A.K.A.: Non-Partisan Hack

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by GannonFan »

∞∞∞ wrote:Parliament passed a bill today which disallows a no-deal Brexit.

Chance of a second referendum is increasing by the day.
That's not technically what it did. It said that the Prime Minister has to ask Europe for another extension. That doesn't mean that Europe has to give them more time. Not aware that the British Parliament can pass a law that makes Europe do anything.

As for the second referendum, there's a reason why Corbyn hasn't been adamant that there should be another referendum - what happens if they have the referendum and the vote is still to leave Europe? There's some misguidance that a second referendum automatically means a Brexit reversal - of course, most folks thought there was no chance the first referendum would've gone for Brexit.
Proud Member of the Blue Hen Nation
User avatar
SDHornet
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19443
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:50 pm
I am a fan of: Sacramento State Hornets

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by SDHornet »

GannonFan wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote:Parliament passed a bill today which disallows a no-deal Brexit.

Chance of a second referendum is increasing by the day.
That's not technically what it did. It said that the Prime Minister has to ask Europe for another extension. That doesn't mean that Europe has to give them more time. Not aware that the British Parliament can pass a law that makes Europe do anything.

As for the second referendum, there's a reason why Corbyn hasn't been adamant that there should be another referendum - what happens if they have the referendum and the vote is still to leave Europe? There's some misguidance that a second referendum automatically means a Brexit reversal - of course, most folks thought there was no chance the first referendum would've gone for Brexit.
Saw a Sargon of Akkad YT video on Brexit a few days before this vote. Basically the UK Parliament is in a death spiral wrt options for Brexit. The EU already rejected the UKs proposals and now it's either Hard Exit (which one can argue is exactly what the voters wanted) or a delay given by the EU to get a sweeter deal from the UK. I believe April 12th is the hard deadline unless the EU give the UK an extension.
Ivytalk
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 26827
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:22 pm
I am a fan of: Salisbury University
Location: Republic of Western Sussex

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Ivytalk »

Theresa May reminds me of those ditzy Brit housewives in the BBC comedies. Sort of like Hyacinth Bucket, but a bit higher-class.
“I’m tired and done.” — 89Hen 3/27/22.
User avatar
GannonFan
Level5
Level5
Posts: 18033
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:51 am
I am a fan of: Delaware
A.K.A.: Non-Partisan Hack

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by GannonFan »

SDHornet wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
That's not technically what it did. It said that the Prime Minister has to ask Europe for another extension. That doesn't mean that Europe has to give them more time. Not aware that the British Parliament can pass a law that makes Europe do anything.

As for the second referendum, there's a reason why Corbyn hasn't been adamant that there should be another referendum - what happens if they have the referendum and the vote is still to leave Europe? There's some misguidance that a second referendum automatically means a Brexit reversal - of course, most folks thought there was no chance the first referendum would've gone for Brexit.
Saw a Sargon of Akkad YT video on Brexit a few days before this vote. Basically the UK Parliament is in a death spiral wrt options for Brexit. The EU already rejected the UKs proposals and now it's either Hard Exit (which one can argue is exactly what the voters wanted) or a delay given by the EU to get a sweeter deal from the UK. I believe April 12th is the hard deadline unless the EU give the UK an extension.
Sounds like Europe may give them a bigger delay (up to 12 months) to figure things out. No sure thing, and if the EU does nothing then April 12th is the exit whether the UK wants it or not.
Proud Member of the Blue Hen Nation
Ivytalk
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 26827
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:22 pm
I am a fan of: Salisbury University
Location: Republic of Western Sussex

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Ivytalk »

GannonFan wrote:
SDHornet wrote: Saw a Sargon of Akkad YT video on Brexit a few days before this vote. Basically the UK Parliament is in a death spiral wrt options for Brexit. The EU already rejected the UKs proposals and now it's either Hard Exit (which one can argue is exactly what the voters wanted) or a delay given by the EU to get a sweeter deal from the UK. I believe April 12th is the hard deadline unless the EU give the UK an extension.
Sounds like Europe may give them a bigger delay (up to 12 months) to figure things out. No sure thing, and if the EU does nothing then April 12th is the exit whether the UK wants it or not.
Kick the soufflé down the road...
“I’m tired and done.” — 89Hen 3/27/22.
Ibanez
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 60482
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:16 pm
I am a fan of: Coastal Carolina

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by Ibanez »

Ivytalk wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
Sounds like Europe may give them a bigger delay (up to 12 months) to figure things out. No sure thing, and if the EU does nothing then April 12th is the exit whether the UK wants it or not.
Kick the spotted dick down the road...
Accuracy
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
User avatar
GannonFan
Level5
Level5
Posts: 18033
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:51 am
I am a fan of: Delaware
A.K.A.: Non-Partisan Hack

Re: Brexit Thread

Post by GannonFan »

Ibanez wrote:
Ivytalk wrote: Kick the spotted dick down the road...
Accuracy
Yup
Proud Member of the Blue Hen Nation
Post Reply