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I believe the Republican Party wouldn't be so crippled today if they adhered to the "Goldwater Standard" - in fact virtually all the Libertarians would be Republicans today if that standard were in place...

What say you..?

You're spot on. An unholy alliance was made between the Goldwater repubs and the religious right to gain power. Bush and the out of control republican spending has pretty much ended the alliance and it has cost republicans in the last two elections.

I think most republicans and most Americans are Goldwater types. They are generally fiscally conservative, don't get too hyped up about religious issues, and want government out of their lives.

Unfortunately both parties have been taken over by the extremists and the nation suffers because of it.

HI54UNI wrote:You're spot on. An unholy alliance was made between the Goldwater repubs and the religious right to gain power. Bush and the out of control republican spending has pretty much ended the alliance and it has cost republicans in the last two elections.

I think most republicans and most Americans are Goldwater types. They are generally fiscally conservative, don't get too hyped up about religious issues, and want government out of their lives.

Unfortunately both parties have been taken over by the extremists and the nation suffers because of it.

30% of the country are evangelicals... about 80% are conservative politically... that's a powerful force in politics and in the GOP they make about 40% of the party base or more. you want to win the GOP it goes through the evangelical movement.

the Republican Party coalition is in the beginning phases of breaking up... and we're beginning a political realignment that's going to take about 4 years or more to shake out.

It's obvious listening to various Republican friends... there is no saving the modern GOP as a cohesive entity... their ideologies have shifted too far apart.

Back-to-back great posts you guys...
Interestingly though, if a religious group needs (or even wants) the Federal Government to align with it - that is a serious problem...

Governments and Religions should not only completely distrust each-other they should never come together in anyway shape or form...

(A bit off topic but regarding the hi-jacking of the Republicans by the Fundi's)

interesting stuff...

I think it's perfectly on topic...

the Goldwater faction was insurgent in 1964 when it wrested control of the party (if only briefly) from the Country Club faction (who still very much exist in the GOP). 1968 changed everything for the GOP, when they opted to repudiate a fair amount of their civil rights plank and siphoned off much of the south for it. Nixon used code words to bring southern whites in to the party, calling for "law and order"... This brought large quantities of lower-middle class whites in to the party, especially in the south.

This, combined with the boom in "born-again" Christianity in the 70's and 80's led to the formation of Christian Voice and Moral Majority in the late 70's. The groups held huge sway over vast numbers of heretofore largely disorganized evangelicals. In 1980, they united behind Ronald Reagan and pushed him through the Republican Primaries... asserting their influence. In 88, Pat Robertson nearly knocked H.W. Bush out of his bid for the endorsement. When he lost, he and the evangelical right largely deserted Bush... and ended up voting in surprising numbers for Ross Perot (even though he didn't share their ideology).

In the 90's, and I witnessed this personally, the evangelical movement trained and took control of hundreds of local Republican Party organizations. They then took control of State and National apparatus. In 2000, Karl Rove opted to use them as the catalyst to get his candidate the nomination. It worked.

it's been a 30 year rise for the evangelicals... i dont see them giving up their political power any time soon.

all of that is a VERY long way to go to say... the Goldwater Repubs... I think are pretty dead. You don't have a huge number of small-government, giant-aggressive military, types out there. Well... not enough to constitute an electoral majority. Not when "true" libertarians have such an aversion to an overly large military. There are also pro-business, "country club" GOPers left... and they despise the evangelicals as "useful idiots". There are also a rather large percentage of Americans who prefer liberal policies (40% as a base).

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I think it's perfectly on topic...

the Goldwater faction was insurgent in 1964 when it wrested control of the party (if only briefly) from the Country Club faction (who still very much exist in the GOP). 1968 changed everything for the GOP, when they opted to repudiate a fair amount of their civil rights plank and siphoned off much of the south for it. Nixon used code words to bring southern whites in to the party, calling for "law and order"... This brought large quantities of lower-middle class whites in to the party, especially in the south.

This, combined with the boom in "born-again" Christianity in the 70's and 80's led to the formation of Christian Voice and Moral Majority in the late 70's. The groups held huge sway over vast numbers of heretofore largely disorganized evangelicals. In 1980, they united behind Ronald Reagan and pushed him through the Republican Primaries... asserting their influence. In 88, Pat Robertson nearly knocked H.W. Bush out of his bid for the endorsement. When he lost, he and the evangelical right largely deserted Bush... and ended up voting in surprising numbers for Ross Perot (even though he didn't share their ideology).

In the 90's, and I witnessed this personally, the evangelical movement trained and took control of hundreds of local Republican Party organizations. They then took control of State and National apparatus. In 2000, Karl Rove opted to use them as the catalyst to get his candidate the nomination. It worked.

it's been a 30 year rise for the evangelicals... i dont see them giving up their political power any time soon.

all of that is a VERY long way to go to say... the Goldwater Repubs... I think are pretty dead. You don't have a huge number of small-government, giant-aggressive military, types out there. Well... not enough to constitute an electoral majority. Not when "true" libertarians have such an aversion to an overly large military. There are also pro-business, "country club" GOPers left... and they despise the evangelicals as "useful idiots". There are also a rather large percentage of Americans who prefer liberal policies (40% as a base).

Nice post, thanks.

There are only a few of us left, it appears. I am not supportive of a giant-agressive military. So, I guess I fall in line more with today's libertarians. Though a Southern Baptist, I am not a "fundi" and don't buy into the government legislating Christian morality. Just not my thing. I'm also not a member of a country club, and come from a rather modest family--so I don't fit into that part of the Republican party either. I suppose I am part of a small minority...perhaps my ideas always have been--though I assume I would have been closer to a Goldwater Republican than much else in the big two parties.

ON A SIDE NOTE: It was hilarious, I went to a Young Republicans meeting (my buddy used to be the chairman) the other night and was talking to this guy who was telling me about one of their members who is considering a run for mayor in Charlotte. He said this guy was a little crazy and on the "fringe." I asked, "Is he the 'Ron Paul' of Mecklenburg County?" He said, "No, he's much worse." This poor fella, he looked at me like I just shot his mom when I told him I voted for Barr instead of McCain. He just could not understand how we called ourselves "conservatives."

There were actually a lot of Ron Paul people there, met a guy working for the Campaign for Liberty. I think they're trying to take over control of grass roots Republican organizations--that could be fun.

The best though, bless his heart, was a buddy of mine that was there. He said, "I did vote for the McCain ticket, but I really just voted for Palin." For fear of being lynched, I held in my laughter.

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:

HI54UNI wrote:You're spot on. An unholy alliance was made between the Goldwater repubs and the religious right to gain power. Bush and the out of control republican spending has pretty much ended the alliance and it has cost republicans in the last two elections.

I think most republicans and most Americans are Goldwater types. They are generally fiscally conservative, don't get too hyped up about religious issues, and want government out of their lives.

Unfortunately both parties have been taken over by the extremists and the nation suffers because of it.

30% of the country are evangelicals... about 80% are conservative politically... that's a powerful force in politics and in the GOP they make about 40% of the party base or more. you want to win the GOP it goes through the evangelical movement.

the Republican Party coalition is in the beginning phases of breaking up... and we're beginning a political realignment that's going to take about 4 years or more to shake out.

It's obvious listening to various Republican friends... there is no saving the modern GOP as a cohesive entity... their ideologies have shifted too far apart.

I am agree with that. I think you are going to see the fiscal conservatives break from the evangelical wing. You will have the Republican part which is basically an evangelical party and you will have a new third party. the Libertarian party with a now much larger base. In the end it will probably make democrats stronger since they are splitting the base, but it is what needs to be done. The evangelical wing has too much influence and it has not been good.

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry rocked!

Ivytalk wrote:Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry rocked!

I liked Barry. Stood his ground for what he believed in. Wasn't willing to sell his soul for votes. Truly believed in personal liberty. Was Pro-choice (second wife was head of AZ Planned Parenthood), and very pro-gay equality (had a gay grandson).

ASUMountaineer wrote:The best though, bless his heart, was a buddy of mine that was there. He said, "I did vote for the McCain ticket, but I really just voted for Palin." For fear of being lynched, I held in my laughter.

Would be funny if it weren't so sad....there's a BUNCH of them folks....have friends who would fit right in....

Appaholic wrote:

ASUMountaineer wrote:The best though, bless his heart, was a buddy of mine that was there. He said, "I did vote for the McCain ticket, but I really just voted for Palin." For fear of being lynched, I held in my laughter.

Would be funny if it weren't so sad....there's a BUNCH of them folks....have friends who would fit right in....

I know. I gave him a look like, "you ignorant fcuk." Oh well, he is trying to work his way up within the party...he has motives. Oh well.

I am a textbook Goldwater Republican.

AZGrizFan wrote:I am a textbook Goldwater Republican.

So why did you support McCain? He was as close to being a Goldwater Republican as Obama is.....

Appaholic wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:I am a textbook Goldwater Republican.

So why did you support McCain? He was as close to being a Goldwater Republican as Obama is.....

Because I'm a Goldwater Republican, not a Lenin Communist.

AZGrizFan wrote:

Appaholic wrote:
So why did you support McCain? He was as close to being a Goldwater Republican as Obama is.....

Because I'm a Goldwater Republican, not a Lenin Communist.

AZ, is it true your real name is Reuben?

This one got away.

NY Times Link

In her early letters, Ms. Rodham refers to her involvement with the Young Republicans, a legacy of her upbringing. In October of her freshman year, she dismisses the local chapter as “so inept,” which she says she might be able to leverage to her own benefit. “I figure that I may be able to work things my own way by the time I’m a junior so I’m going to stick to it,” she writes.

Still, the letters reveal a fast-eroding allegiance to the party of her childhood. She ridicules a trip she had taken to a Young Republicans convention as “a farce that would have done Oscar Wilde credit.” By the summer of 1967, Ms. Rodham — writing from her parents’ vacation home in Lake Winola, Pa. — begins referring to Republicans as “they” rather than “we.”

The republicans don't need to throw the religious right overboard. They need to throw the neocons and the fiscally irresponsible overboard, and they need to become more nationalist and less corporatist. Bush campaigned as a consummate social conservative in 2000 and still won. The evangelicals saved his arse again in 2004. It was the war and fiscal issues that doomed the republicans in '06 and '08.

By the way, where are the JFK democrats? And don't try to tell me Joe Lieberman is one.

Pwns wrote:The republicans don't need to throw the religious right overboard. They need to throw the neocons and the fiscally irresponsible overboard, and they need to become more nationalist and less corporatist. Bush campaigned as a consummate social conservative in 2000 and still won. The evangelicals saved his arse again in 2004. It was the war and fiscal issues that doomed the republicans in '06 and '08.

By the way, where are the JFK democrats? And don't try to tell me Joe Lieberman is one.

Good points.....I could accept the Religious Right if they could seperate their all-or-nothing religious stances from the act of governance. Their inability to do just that as well as their participation in witch hunts with regards to a candidate's background has proven them "conservative" in name only and Social Conservatives in nature. They are no better nor worse than the ultra-left and their litmus tests for candidates....and both are a detriment to quality governance.

AZGrizFan wrote:I am a textbook Goldwater Republican.

Which textbook?