Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby kalm » Fri May 24, 2019 1:42 pm

CID1990 wrote:
kalm wrote:
So there's as much evidence of CID kidnapping the Lindbergh kid as Trump colluding/conspiring/interacting/plotting with the Russians?

:?

Lord of the Flies in defending Trump...the cs version.


Yes - there is the same amount of actual evidence of a conspiracy with Russians as there is evidence of me kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. I don’t think I stuttered

I know some of you (most notably Jelly and JSO) have fanciful and highly customized views on what constitutes evidence of a crime, but there was no evidence of a crime in the non-make believe world that most of us inhabit


You’re right. I should have said suspicion instead of evidence.

The justice department policy of not indicting a sitting president doesn’t mean crimes weren’t committed. Similar to financial crimes and the 2008 crash. Since no one was convicted there must not have been fraud?

It’s a disappointing part of our system where enough wealth and power keeps you out of jail (unless you steal from rich guys like Madoff). Anyone who used the “if I had done what Hillary had done” argument should get this.

Not to mention the tremendous fight to obstruct...whoops....I mean keep financial records secret and administration officials from testifying.

He’s the most guilty acting, innocent person in the history of things.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby css75 » Fri May 24, 2019 2:16 pm

kalm wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Yes - there is the same amount of actual evidence of a conspiracy with Russians as there is evidence of me kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. I don’t think I stuttered

I know some of you (most notably Jelly and JSO) have fanciful and highly customized views on what constitutes evidence of a crime, but there was no evidence of a crime in the non-make believe world that most of us inhabit


You’re right. I should have said suspicion instead of evidence.

The justice department policy of not indicting a sitting president doesn’t mean crimes weren’t committed. Similar to financial crimes and the 2008 crash. Since no one was convicted there must not have been fraud?

It’s a disappointing part of our system where enough wealth and power keeps you out of jail (unless you steal from rich guys like Madoff). Anyone who used the “if I had done what Hillary had done” argument should get this.

Not to mention the tremendous fight to obstruct...whoops....I mean keep financial records secret and administration officials from testifying.

He’s the most guilty acting, innocent person in the history of things.


Most of the stuff Nadler and his gang of thugs wants, Trump already supplied to Mueller, enough is enough. If those 19 rabid libs couldn’t find anything that should be it.


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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby JohnStOnge » Fri May 24, 2019 4:11 pm

css75 wrote:
kalm wrote:
You’re right. I should have said suspicion instead of evidence.

The justice department policy of not indicting a sitting president doesn’t mean crimes weren’t committed. Similar to financial crimes and the 2008 crash. Since no one was convicted there must not have been fraud?

It’s a disappointing part of our system where enough wealth and power keeps you out of jail (unless you steal from rich guys like Madoff). Anyone who used the “if I had done what Hillary had done” argument should get this.

Not to mention the tremendous fight to obstruct...whoops....I mean keep financial records secret and administration officials from testifying.

He’s the most guilty acting, innocent person in the history of things.


Most of the stuff Nadler and his gang of thugs wants, Trump already supplied to Mueller, enough is enough. If those 19 rabid libs couldn’t find anything that should be it.


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Mueller found evidence of obstruction of justice. That is very clear. Then Mueller did not make a call as to whether it was sufficient. Then Trump's appointee said that he didn't consider it sufficient. But it's not his call really. Not under our Constitution. Under our Constitution it's Congress' call.

This idea that the investigators "couldn't find anything" is nonsense. They did find things.

Now, I realize that the Democrats are probably in a hopeless position because the Republicans in the Senate have decided to throw integrity to the wind and support Trump no matter what. But the idea that Congress should not investigate/consider this matter is absurd.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby SeattleGriz » Fri May 24, 2019 4:54 pm

He is trying to goad Pelosi to impeach. Instant election victory.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby kalm » Fri May 24, 2019 5:21 pm

SeattleGriz wrote:He is trying to goad Pelosi to impeach. Instant election victory.


Establishment Dems like Pelosi were opposed until Amash outflanked them. :nod:
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby CID1990 » Fri May 24, 2019 7:28 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:
css75 wrote:
Most of the stuff Nadler and his gang of thugs wants, Trump already supplied to Mueller, enough is enough. If those 19 rabid libs couldn’t find anything that should be it.


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Mueller found evidence of obstruction of justice. That is very clear. Then Mueller did not make a call as to whether it was sufficient. Then Trump's appointee said that he didn't consider it sufficient. But it's not his call really. Not under our Constitution. Under our Constitution it's Congress' call.

This idea that the investigators "couldn't find anything" is nonsense. They did find things.

Now, I realize that the Democrats are probably in a hopeless position because the Republicans in the Senate have decided to throw integrity to the wind and support Trump no matter what. But the idea that Congress should not investigate/consider this matter is absurd.


John

Go take your meds, have a seat, and prepare to have your mind blown-

Nobody here is saying there isn’t evidence of obstruction of justice - there is - (depending on who you ask of course)




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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby SeattleGriz » Fri May 24, 2019 8:10 pm

This is a perfect example as to why the Gateway Pundit is a great news source.

*News 3-6 days before everyone else
*Great branding ie "Crooked Cop Comey"
*Unhinged

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/0 ... a-warrant/

FBI Lawyer Squeals Like a Pig: Implicates Comey, McCabe, and Yates for Mishandling of FISA Warrant
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby CID1990 » Fri May 24, 2019 8:29 pm

GP hasn’t really hit on anything there unless there’s additional context we don’t know about

They were trying to get a FISA warrant on somebody who was closely connected with a Presidential campaign.

I would expect that it would have gotten SES signoffs before going to a judge - no midlevel person is going to do that on their own without getting a superior’s clearance. Its basic CYA


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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby JohnStOnge » Sat May 25, 2019 3:10 am

CID1990 wrote:
Nobody here is saying there isn’t evidence of obstruction of justice - there is - (depending on who you ask of course)


I think that there are clearly people here who take the position that Mueller "didn't find anything" of consequence and that everyone should just drop it and move on. I think that is also the position taken by Republicans in Congress. But it's nonsense.

The Democrats in Congress are biased against Trump and the Republicans in Congress are biased for him. So we cannot have an objective process. Nevertheless, there is obviously plenty of basis for the House to start an impeachment inquiry. There is no way that William Barr saying he doesn't think it was obstruction of Justice suffices to close the matter.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby CID1990 » Sat May 25, 2019 4:52 am

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Nobody here is saying there isn’t evidence of obstruction of justice - there is - (depending on who you ask of course)


I think that there are clearly people here who take the position that Mueller "didn't find anything" of consequence and that everyone should just drop it and move on. I think that is also the position taken by Republicans in Congress. But it's nonsense.

The Democrats in Congress are biased against Trump and the Republicans in Congress are biased for him. So we cannot have an objective process. Nevertheless, there is obviously plenty of basis for the House to start an impeachment inquiry. There is no way that William Barr saying he doesn't think it was obstruction of Justice suffices to close the matter.


Thats not what most people are saying and if you’d stop spewing sewage long enough you might see it

BTW- your fellow travelers in the House sure seem to think they can find a conspiracy where Mueller couldnt

There’s some very obvious sour grapes here on your part as well as a lot of others


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Re: RE: Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby SeattleGriz » Sat May 25, 2019 7:36 am

CID1990 wrote:GP hasn’t really hit on anything there unless there’s additional context we don’t know about

They were trying to get a FISA warrant on somebody who was closely connected with a Presidential campaign.

I would expect that it would have gotten SES signoffs before going to a judge - no midlevel person is going to do that on their own without getting a superior’s clearance. Its basic CYA


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True, this is recycled news. I should have used a better example. Many times I will see a story start at Gateway Pundit and as it gets vetted move to sites like Hotair, Town hall, etc.

It breaks unvetted stories faster than most sites.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby JohnStOnge » Sat May 25, 2019 1:49 pm

CID1990 wrote:BTW- your fellow travelers in the House sure seem to think they can find a conspiracy where Mueller couldnt

There’s some very obvious sour grapes here on your part as well as a lot of others


Sour grapes is when you really want something, can't get it, then say you don't want it. That's not what's going on here. I want Trump out whether I can get that or not.

Otherwise: From what I've seen it's not a matter of them thinking they can get him on criminal conspiracy. I have seen no indication that they are disagreeing with Mueller's conclusion that there is not sufficient evidence to criminally charge anybody with criminal conspiracy. Adam Schiff, for example, publicly stated that he thinks Mueller is an honorable man as well as a good prosecutor and does not question Mueller's conclusion with respect to criminal conspiracy.

What they're doing is saying that doesn't mean there was no "collusion." And that's true. As noted earlier, Mueller did not address the general question of "collusion."

To me, by the common meaning of the term, Manafort sharing internal polling data with a guy with connections to Russian intelligence was "collusion" or "cooperation." Maybe there are some other terms for it.

It all goes back to Trump, Barr, and Republicans in Congress saying the report showed "no collusion." It did not.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby JohnStOnge » Sat May 25, 2019 2:02 pm

Another thing: Whoever actually wrote the Mueller report went out of their way to qualify their conclusion that there was not sufficient evidence to charge criminal conspiracy. Let's take a look at the end of the executive summary on the conspiracy investigation again:

Even when individuals testified or agreed to be interviewed, they sometimes provided information that was false or incomplete, leading to some of the false-statements charges described above. And the Office faced practical limits on its ability to access relevant evidence as well-numerous witnesses and subjects lived abroad, and documents were held outside the UnitedStates.

Further, the Office learned that some of the individuals we interviewed or whose conduct we investigated including some associated with the Trump Campaign---deleted relevant communications or communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications records. In such cases, the Office was not able to corroborate witness statements through comparison to contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared inconsistent with other known facts.

Accordingly, while this report embodies factual and legal determinations that the Office believes to be accurate and complete to the greatest extent possible, given these identified gaps, the Office cannot rule out the possibility that the unavailable information would shed additional light on (or cast in a new light) the events described in the report.


Among other things, any objective person should wonder what they could not corroborate. Maybe I'll know if I ever read the whole report. But it suggests that they had witness statements possibly indicating conspiracy but could not corroborate them. Do I know that? No. But what are they talking about?

Either way the author or authors of that language are clearly saying, "WE ARE NOT SAYING IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. WE WERE NOT ABLE TO LOOK AT EVERYTHING WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE LOOKED AT."

As I thought about this I thought about the recent national news story about a case where a guy killed his wife and his toddler son told people "Daddy hurt Mommy." The local police strongly suspected the guy offed his wife but they couldn't charge because they didn't have sufficient evidence. Didn't have a body. It wasn't until decades later that the son as a grownup was doing some work around the house and found his Mom's remains that they went after him

The point is, as you know very well, saying "we did not find sufficient evidence to charge criminal conspiracy" is not saying "we don't think there was a criminal conspiracy" and it CERTAINLY isn't saying "there was no collusion."

And, no, it's not like suspecting you of kidnapping the LIndbergh baby.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby Ivytalk » Sat May 25, 2019 3:26 pm

kalm wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:He is trying to goad Pelosi to impeach. Instant election victory.


Establishment Dems like Pelosi were opposed until Amash outflanked them. :nod:


Amash may have been wrong on the law. He gave the Donks cover, for no compelling reason.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby kalm » Sat May 25, 2019 5:17 pm

Ivytalk wrote:
kalm wrote:
Establishment Dems like Pelosi were opposed until Amash outflanked them. :nod:


Amash may have been wrong on the law. He gave the Donks cover, for no compelling reason.


Or maybe he’s actually honest and less tribalistic?
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby Ivytalk » Sat May 25, 2019 6:17 pm

kalm wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:
Amash may have been wrong on the law. He gave the Donks cover, for no compelling reason.


Or maybe he’s actually honest and less tribalistic?


Honest, yes. Accurate, not so much. I like the guy, but he’s no Sam Ervin.
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby CID1990 » Sat May 25, 2019 8:31 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:Another thing: Whoever actually wrote the Mueller report went out of their way to qualify their conclusion that there was not sufficient evidence to charge criminal conspiracy. Let's take a look at the end of the executive summary on the conspiracy investigation again:

Even when individuals testified or agreed to be interviewed, they sometimes provided information that was false or incomplete, leading to some of the false-statements charges described above. And the Office faced practical limits on its ability to access relevant evidence as well-numerous witnesses and subjects lived abroad, and documents were held outside the UnitedStates.

Further, the Office learned that some of the individuals we interviewed or whose conduct we investigated including some associated with the Trump Campaign---deleted relevant communications or communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications records. In such cases, the Office was not able to corroborate witness statements through comparison to contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared inconsistent with other known facts.

Accordingly, while this report embodies factual and legal determinations that the Office believes to be accurate and complete to the greatest extent possible, given these identified gaps, the Office cannot rule out the possibility that the unavailable information would shed additional light on (or cast in a new light) the events described in the report.


Among other things, any objective person should wonder what they could not corroborate. Maybe I'll know if I ever read the whole report. But it suggests that they had witness statements possibly indicating conspiracy but could not corroborate them. Do I know that? No. But what are they talking about?

Either way the author or authors of that language are clearly saying, "WE ARE NOT SAYING IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. WE WERE NOT ABLE TO LOOK AT EVERYTHING WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE LOOKED AT."

As I thought about this I thought about the recent national news story about a case where a guy killed his wife and his toddler son told people "Daddy hurt Mommy." The local police strongly suspected the guy offed his wife but they couldn't charge because they didn't have sufficient evidence. Didn't have a body. It wasn't until decades later that the son as a grownup was doing some work around the house and found his Mom's remains that they went after him

The point is, as you know very well, saying "we did not find sufficient evidence to charge criminal conspiracy" is not saying "we don't think there was a criminal conspiracy" and it CERTAINLY isn't saying "there was no collusion."

And, no, it's not like suspecting you of kidnapping the LIndbergh baby.


The lack of evidence is precisely the same.

The Mueller report reads like any investigative report where gaps are identified (a feature of every criminal investigation)

There are no contemporaneous communications saying “release the Kraken”, John. There is no conspiracy hiding in the gaps.

Anyone with a shred of logic who understands the timeline knows this with a very high degree of certainty. I made this very same point with Jelly numerous times(whose logical reasoning processes were also short circuited by his desired outcome). You can go back and read those exchanges where I explain the overwhelming likelihood that no conspiracy existed. The Mueller report confirms much of what I said back then.

There is a lot of wishful thinking which causes you and others to leave logic on the curb and it is obvious to pretty much everybody here.


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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby SeattleGriz » Tue May 28, 2019 4:15 pm

Okay StOnge. Here is your chance to see what is on the other side.

A carefully redacted footnote within a report by FISA Court Presiding Judge Rosemary Collyer has always appeared to be a clue to a domestic surveillance program. Now details behind the redactions tell a concerning story.


If you don't know who Rosemary Collyer is, it shows you haven't been paying attention.

Domestic surveillance on targets since 2012.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/20 ... ore-164349
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Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby mainejeff » Tue May 28, 2019 5:18 pm

SeattleGriz wrote:Okay StOnge. Here is your chance to see what is on the other side.

A carefully redacted footnote within a report by FISA Court Presiding Judge Rosemary Collyer has always appeared to be a clue to a domestic surveillance program. Now details behind the redactions tell a concerning story.


If you don't know who Rosemary Collyer is, it shows you haven't been paying attention.

Domestic surveillance on targets since 2012.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/20 ... ore-164349


https://www.jenkuznicki.com/exactly-mot ... se-website

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Re: RE: Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby SeattleGriz » Tue May 28, 2019 5:41 pm

mainejeff wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:Okay StOnge. Here is your chance to see what is on the other side.



If you don't know who Rosemary Collyer is, it shows you haven't been paying attention.

Domestic surveillance on targets since 2012.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/20 ... ore-164349


https://www.jenkuznicki.com/exactly-mot ... se-website

:coffee:
And Jim Acosta is full of ****, but you love him.

It's about 4th amendment violations. Libs used to be on the side of non surveillance.
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Re: RE: Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby mainejeff » Tue May 28, 2019 5:54 pm

SeattleGriz wrote:
And Jim Acosta is full of ****, but you love him.

It's about 4th amendment violations. Libs used to be on the side of non surveillance.


Who's Jim Acosta?

:coffee:
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby SeattleGriz » Tue May 28, 2019 5:56 pm

mainejeff wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:And Jim Acosta is full of ****, but you love him.

It's about 4th amendment violations. Libs used to be on the side of non surveillance.


Who's Jim Acosta?

:coffee:


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Re: RE: Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby kalm » Tue May 28, 2019 6:02 pm

SeattleGriz wrote:
And Jim Acosta is full of ****, but you love him.

It's about 4th amendment violations. Libs used to be on the side of non surveillance.


I support the 4th amendment and I’m a lib (not sure about MJ but I know Ivy didn’t care for it at one point).

Never heard of the judge. Conservativetreehouse sounds legit.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby SeattleGriz » Tue May 28, 2019 6:13 pm

kalm wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:And Jim Acosta is full of ****, but you love him.

It's about 4th amendment violations. Libs used to be on the side of non surveillance.


I support the 4th amendment and I’m a lib (not sure about MJ but I know Ivy didn’t care for it at one point).

Never heard of the judge. Conservativetreehouse sounds legit.
This is the judge that NSA Director Michael Rogers went to because his compliance check found that 85% of the queries were not done properly. In addition, contractors were allowed to use the system.

Rogers was the reason Trump tweeted that Obama wiretapped him. Rogers went to Collyer and spilled the beans on the illegal searches. I'll post a link to her redacted release when I get on the computer.

While Treehouse may be biased, they admit mistakes and have only changed story once. Thinking Russia collusion was to get rid of Trump, to believing it is now a cover up for the domestic surveillance.
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Re: RE: Re: Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

Postby SDHornet » Tue May 28, 2019 7:07 pm

kalm wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:And Jim Acosta is full of ****, but you love him.

It's about 4th amendment violations. Libs used to be on the side of non surveillance.


I support the 4th amendment and I’m a lib (not sure about MJ but I know Ivy didn’t care for it at one point).

Never heard of the judge. Conservativetreehouse sounds legit.

Probably no less legit than CNN or MSNBC these past 30 months. :coffee:


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