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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... a4c133135c

There's a long, acrimonious comments section after the article that is worth browsing (but only briefly... you can get the whole flavor after just a page or two)

But I found it interesting that nobody pointed out the obvious (besides all of the fallacious logic) that trying to characterize libertarians this way is commonplace among both the progressive left and the alt-right-

They are assigning an "otherness" to people who disagree with them ideologically - the endpoint is, of course, that only "my" viewpoint is the correct one

The alt-right does precisely the same thing when it comes to libertarians - characterizing them as libertines, open borders (and therefore wanting to dilute American "culture", etc

There were a couple lefty commenters that did more accurately describe the libertarian tendency as a kind of ideological selfishness, but they stopped there without carrying the logic to its natural conclusion

anyway, the article piqued my interest due to the intellectual shallowness of the debate - but both sides touch on some truths that nobody really fleshes out .... basically a ridiculous article that spawned a less ridiculous debate


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I hit a paywall. Darn.

Ivytalk wrote:I hit a paywall. Darn.

Cheap bastard.

I liked this comment:

"Give me a slight break."

I find it hard to argue with libertarian pros like Matt Welch and Yaron Brook and they are anything but alt-right.

BTW, I discovered Matt Welch on the Maher (progressive left) show and Yaron Brook on the Thom Hartmann (progressive left) show.

93henfan wrote:

Ivytalk wrote:I hit a paywall. Darn.

Cheap bastard.

I learned at the feet of the master.

Ivytalk wrote:I hit a paywall. Darn.

No paywall for me. Probably some sort of a donk/WA-PO pop up blocker...

I think libertarianism appeals to the "blacks and Mexicans are sucking up the welfare" crowd. But the idea that someone like Penn Jillette or Milton Friedman or whoever is going to become a white nationalist is silly.

Ivytalk wrote:

93henfan wrote:
Cheap bastard.

I learned at the feet of the master.

Try: Chrome, incognito mode

Didn't read article, but I think a lot of the alt-right splintered from the Ron Paul movement in 2008. They weren't principled libertarians, steeped in the philosophical underpinnings of libertarianism. The populist message and shallow sound bites made sense to them, they took it and ran with it until it developed into an animal of its own.

Same reason some of the alt-right leaders were formally Occupy Wallstreeters. The populist message of that movement led them to the populism of the alt-right.

Skjellyfetti wrote:Didn't read article, but I think a lot of the alt-right splintered from the Ron Paul movement in 2008. They weren't principled libertarians, steeped in the philosophical underpinnings of libertarianism. The populist message and shallow sound bites made sense to them, they took it and ran with it until it developed into an animal of its own.

Same reason some of the alt-right leaders were formally Occupy Wallstreeters. The populist message of that movement led them to the populism of the alt-right.

Are there really a lot of Occupiers who somehow drifted to the alt-right??? The Occupiers were much more socialist-leaning, if one had to put a label on it. The alt-right tends to be a lot more xenophobic and nationalistic in nature. Those two ideologies, both now and even historically, have been diametrically opposed. Calling them both populist, which they are, is a discussion on how they have grown, but populist is a separate discussion from ideology.

Jason Kessler, one of the leaders organizing the Charlottesville rally. Baked Alaska as well. They're idiots who latch onto a movement. It confounds me as well. I'm not saying it makes sense.

I'm not saying socialism and the alt-right are linked ideologically - just as I'm not saying libertarianism and the alt-right are linked ideologically. I'm saying the alt-right is full of people latching onto a movement. They're not ideologically deep thinkers.

There are true believers like Richard Spencer and Matthew Heimbach, though. But, the alt-right is full of idiots who are just following along and not part of some ideological movement.

Skjellyfetti wrote:Jason Kessler, one of the leaders organizing the Charlottesville rally. Baked Alaska as well. They're idiots who latch onto a movement. It confounds me as well. I'm not saying it makes sense.

I'm not saying socialism and the alt-right are linked ideologically - just as I'm not saying libertarianism and the alt-right are linked ideologically. I'm saying the alt-right is full of people latching onto a movement. They're not ideologically deep thinkers.

There are true believers like Richard Spencer and Matthew Heimbach, though. But, the alt-right is full of idiots who are just following along and not part of some ideological movement.

I just Googled who Jason Kessler was and I can never get back that minute or two it took me to read the Wiki on him. Why are we so focused on the lunatic fringe, whether it be alt-right or alt-left, Occupiers or White Nationalists? There's a reason these people are called the "fringe" - there really aren't a lot of them, numbers-wise. They're loud, they can be violent, and they get news coverage, but other than that, they're pretty non-consequential. I'm sad that we actually think whackos like this Kessler kid matter.

GannonFan wrote:Why are we so focused on the lunatic fringe, whether it be alt-right or alt-left, Occupiers or White Nationalists? There's a reason these people are called the "fringe" - there really aren't a lot of them, numbers-wise.

They are the 99% GF.

89Hen wrote:

GannonFan wrote:Why are we so focused on the lunatic fringe, whether it be alt-right or alt-left, Occupiers or White Nationalists? There's a reason these people are called the "fringe" - there really aren't a lot of them, numbers-wise.

They are the 99% GF.

Nonsense - whackjobs like that Kessler are miniscule. It's the 99% and then some that spend our time responding to the antics and dim-wittedness of that miniscule percentage, the proverbial tail wagging the dog.

kalm wrote:I liked this comment:

"Give me a slight break."

I find it hard to argue with libertarian pros like Matt Welch and Yaron Brook and they are anything but alt-right.

BTW, I discovered Matt Welch on the Maher (progressive left) show and Yaron Brook on the Thom Hartmann (progressive left) show.

The author would have had a less tortured task to say that if you aren't radical progressive left, then you're alt right.

That's basically what this is