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Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:14 am
by CAA Flagship
Court in Richmond rules that a cross honoring veterans ‘breaches’ wall between church and state
A nearly century-old, 40-foot cross honoring World War I veterans in Bladensburg, Md. represents an unconstitutional endorsement of religion, a divided federal appeals court ruled Wednesday.
In a 2-1 decision, a panel of the Fourth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Va., found that the cross “breaches” the wall of separation between church and state.
At least one other appeals court has pronounced a memorial cross on government land as unconstitutional. But Wednesday’s ruling marked the first time a circuit court has ruled against a cross in a World War I memorial, according to lawyers.
The concrete, Celtic cross was erected in 1925 by the American Legion and towers above a pedestal on a busy highway median about a half-hour drive from Washington, D.C. The site honors 49 men from Prince George’s County who died in World War I.
The Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission, a bicounty agency, acquired title to the property in 1961.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/appeals-co ... 1508367195
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:27 am
by 89Hen
Used to be a country bar right across the street from this. Looked like a scene from Roadhouse in that place. Went only one time in 1990 and wasn't really sure how I got there or how I got home.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:28 am
by dbackjon
So they are saying that only Christians died during WWI.
Correct ruling.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:37 am
by 89Hen
BTW and FWIW, this case has been going on for years and nobody would ever know this was public land where this cross stands unless you told them.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:52 am
by Baldy
If it makes it to the SCOTUS, it will be overturned.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:20 pm
by Col Hogan
dbackjon wrote:So they are saying that only Christians died during WWI.
Correct ruling.
What part of “The site honors 49 men from Prince George’s County who died in World War I.” don’t you and the Court understand?
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:33 pm
by dbackjon
Col Hogan wrote:dbackjon wrote:So they are saying that only Christians died during WWI.
Correct ruling.
What part of “The site honors 49 men from Prince George’s County who died in World War I.” don’t you and the Court understand?
So you are assuming that all 49 are Christian?
And it is on public land, so it doesn't matter either. What part of the Constitution do you not understand?
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:42 pm
by bandl
dbackjon wrote:Col Hogan wrote:
What part of “The site honors 49 men from Prince George’s County who died in World War I.” don’t you and the Court understand?
So you are assuming that all 49 are Christian?
And it is on public land, so it doesn't matter either. What part of the Constitution do you not understand?
Two of those men killed were gay...
That should change your tune
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:43 pm
by 89Hen
dbackjon wrote:Col Hogan wrote:
What part of “The site honors 49 men from Prince George’s County who died in World War I.” don’t you and the Court understand?
So you are assuming that all 49 are Christian?
What if they are?
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:54 pm
by Gil Dobie
Why don't they just add a symbol of religious affiliation for all 49 people, like they do in Arlington. Probably would have been cheaper to honor each soldier in this manor, than have the liberals spend all this money in court to make them feel warm and fuzzy inside.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:17 pm
by dbackjon
bandl wrote:dbackjon wrote:
So you are assuming that all 49 are Christian?
And it is on public land, so it doesn't matter either. What part of the Constitution do you not understand?
Two of those men killed were gay...
That should change your tune
Nope - Memorial is great. Just take down the unconstitutional cross
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:18 pm
by dbackjon
89Hen wrote:dbackjon wrote:
So you are assuming that all 49 are Christian?
What if they are?
You left out the part of my post where I addressed that.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:21 pm
by 89Hen
dbackjon wrote:89Hen wrote:
What if they are?
You left out the part of my post where I addressed that.
If it doesn't matter, why did you ask it?
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:21 pm
by AZGrizFan
dbackjon wrote:Col Hogan wrote:
What part of “The site honors 49 men from Prince George’s County who died in World War I.” don’t you and the Court understand?
So you are assuming that all 49 are Christian?
And it is on public land, so it doesn't matter either. What part of the Constitution do you not understand?
suddenly you're a fervent believer in the Constitution.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:26 pm
by Gil Dobie
dbackjon wrote:bandl wrote:
Two of those men killed were gay...
That should change your tune
Nope - Memorial is great. Just take down the unconstitutional cross
Does the constitution ban religion?
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:28 pm
by dbackjon
AZGrizFan wrote:dbackjon wrote:
So you are assuming that all 49 are Christian?
And it is on public land, so it doesn't matter either. What part of the Constitution do you not understand?
suddenly you're a fervent believer in the Constitution.
Always have been. Don't pick and choose like the right does.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:29 pm
by dbackjon
Gil Dobie wrote:dbackjon wrote:
Nope - Memorial is great. Just take down the unconstitutional cross
Does the constitution ban religion?
Nope, but it doesn't allow governmental endorsement of one religion over another. Many SCOTUS cases back that up.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:33 pm
by Gil Dobie
dbackjon wrote:Gil Dobie wrote:
Does the constitution ban religion?
Nope, but it doesn't allow governmental endorsement of one religion over another. Many SCOTUS cases back that up.
It allows freedom of religion. Tearing the cross down, shows the government is against freedom of religion.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:42 pm
by Chizzang
Gil Dobie wrote:Why don't they just add a symbol of religious affiliation for all 49 people, like they do in Arlington. Probably would have been cheaper to honor each soldier in this manor, than have the liberals spend all this money in court to make them feel warm and fuzzy inside.
Gil,
I know that you don't understand this scenario at all
as we've been through this type of situation a lot and you don't get it
It's not about "what makes somebody feel warm and fuzzy"
It's really very serious - perhaps THE single most important thing
that has kept this Government from becoming a theocracy like Iran
That might sound like a wild over statement
but it would only take one Jimmy Swaggert type president
and no constitutional protection FROM religious mission creep and we're there...
The rules are the rules
even if they hurt your feelings
They cannot be bent on these types of things - even if the "intent" was pure
Intentions can be twisted over time
It's not about freedom OF Religion
it's about freedom FROM Religion
The rule of Law in A Republic is paramount
not somebody's theocratic ideology
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:43 pm
by dbackjon
Gil Dobie wrote:dbackjon wrote:
Nope, but it doesn't allow governmental endorsement of one religion over another. Many SCOTUS cases back that up.
It allows freedom of religion. Tearing the cross down, shows the government is against freedom of religion.
Wrong.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:44 pm
by dbackjon
Chizzang wrote:Gil Dobie wrote:Why don't they just add a symbol of religious affiliation for all 49 people, like they do in Arlington. Probably would have been cheaper to honor each soldier in this manor, than have the liberals spend all this money in court to make them feel warm and fuzzy inside.
Gil,
I know that you don't understand this scenario at all
as we've been through this type of situation a lot and you don't get it
It's not about "what makes somebody feel warm and fuzzy"
It's really very serious - perhaps THE single most important thing
that has kept this Government from becoming a theocracy like Iran
That might sound like a wild over statement
but it would only take one Jimmy Swaggert type president
and no constitutional protection FROM religious mission creep and we're there...
The rules are the rules
even if they hurt your feelings
They cannot be bent on these types of things - even if the "intent" was pure
Intentions can be twisted over time
Well stated. And we are closer to the theocracy than you think. We have a theocrat as VP, and one as Attorney General.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:45 pm
by kalm
Chizzang wrote:Gil Dobie wrote:Why don't they just add a symbol of religious affiliation for all 49 people, like they do in Arlington. Probably would have been cheaper to honor each soldier in this manor, than have the liberals spend all this money in court to make them feel warm and fuzzy inside.
Gil,
I know that you don't understand this scenario at all
as we've been through this type of situation a lot and you don't get it
It's not about "what makes somebody feel warm and fuzzy"
It's really very serious - perhaps THE single most important thing
that has kept this Government from becoming a theocracy like Iran
That might sound like a wild over statement
but it would only take one Jimmy Swaggert type president
and no constitutional protection FROM religious mission creep and we're there...
The rules are the rules
even if they hurt your feelings
They cannot be bent on these types of things - even if the "intent" was pure
Intentions can be twisted over time
Dback and Chizzy owning this thread. Put up a symbol for EVERY other religion or STFU about it.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:46 pm
by Chizzang
The Republic for which it stands...
It's not about freedom OF Religion
it's about freedom FROM Religion
The rule of Law in A Republic is paramount
not somebody's personal theocratic ideology
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:47 pm
by Gil Dobie
kalm wrote: Put up a symbol for EVERY other religion or STFU about it.
That's what I'm saying.
Re: Court Finds World War I Memorial Unconstitutional
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:52 pm
by Gil Dobie
Chizzang wrote:The Republic for which it stands...
It's not about freedom OF Religion
it's about freedom FROM Religion
The rule of Law in A Republic is paramount
not somebody's personal theocratic ideology
That's where we disagree. I don't read it as freedom from Religion, I read freedom of Religion. And I don't see it as Religion taking part in the government, but government allowing expression of all Religions, but not being part of those Religions.
And I agree with
The rule of Law in A Republic is paramount
not somebody's personal theocratic ideology