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I'm no fan of Roy Moore, but after reading the Washington Post story, I'm skeptical of the truth of the pedophilia allegation. This about the only place left in the world where you can speak honestly about politics, so I'm going to post this here.

The WaPo story originated out of some scuttlebutt around Alabama that Roy Moore, when he was a young man, had a thing for younger ladies. So WaPo's reporters started to look into this.

Apparently, Moore's attraction to younger women nearly 40 years ago was no secret in Alabama. Moreover, if you read the story, he was pretty above board about it. Ultimately, when he married at 37, he married a 23-year old woman.

There are four sources in the WaPo story. Keep in mind that the age of consent in Alabama was (is?) 16 at the time these things happened.

One source said she was 16 years old, and Moore was 32, when he asked her out. She was a bit creeped out by the request, because he was so much older, and spoke to her mother about it. She eventually decided to turn down the date request. So nothing happened. No sexual assault, no stalking. Now, for a 32-year-old man to ask out a 16-year-old, well,that does seem a bit creepy. But advance them both three or four years, and she's 19, and it's not really bad. But in any event, nothing illegal. He asked, she said no. And she was legal. Bad judgment on his part is all I see.

Second source was a 17-year-old girl who was 17 years younger than Moore when he asked her out. She asked her mother if she thought it was ok for her to date a man that much older than her, and her mother asked who it was. When the girl told her mother it was Roy Moore, the mother responded that she was the luckiest girl in the world. Uh, wrong answer, mom. But still, she went out on a date, they kissed on the mouth once, and that was about it. She felt uncomfortable about the age difference, and didn't see him again. Again, no allegation of sexual assault.

Not to belabor the point, but the third source was 18 years old, and her story is similar to the second source. This source also spoke to her mother about it.

Now the fourth source says she was 14, and Moore took her to his apartment, and forced himself on her, and she was sexually assaulted. He touched her, he made her touch him, but no intercourse. This is said to have happened two times.

Now this fourth source may be telling the truth, but her story is not really corroborated by the other three sources.

Again, this story may be true, but it would be very easy for persons with political motivations, aware of Moore's history of dating young (but legal) women, to find someone willing to take the "story" a bit further.

The fourth source is an outlier. I really think WaPo's report is misleading to the extent it suggests that the four sources corroborate each other. They don't. Three of the sources corroborate each other.

My guess is, before going to print with this, Ben Bradlee would have told his reporters that source four's story does not match up to the events told by the first three sources, and to dig a bit harder into whether source four (and her two friends who claim she told them about this years ago) is doing someone's political dirty work (or as the Watergate conspirators called it, Ratfucking).

This is not to say it is not true. I just think the suggestion of corroboration suggested by the WaPo story is inaccurate.

Chizzang wrote:

Off point, Chizz. He's a demagogue. That's a given.

I'd be curious if you think the first three sources corroborate the fourth. This post is really about the standards of modern journalism.

It's a lot easier to force and coerce a 14 y/o than an 18 or 17 y/o. The fact is, the WaPo was able to find three woman that didn't know each tell similar stories, and a fourth with a far more serious one.

Innocent until proven guilty (not that he's going to trial), but I can believe it.

Nonsense, Joe! Teenage girls never inflate their age to older men they're interested in.

BTW, the timing of this is very interesting coming right after a decisive donk victory in an odd-numbered-year election. If this is a smear job, it may be coming from the GOP.

No doubt in my mind that Roy Moore is a creeper, but the WoPoop story does seem to be a little unseemly.

Chizzang wrote:

dChizzback

Pwns wrote:BTW, the timing of this is very interesting coming right after a decisive donk victory in an odd-numbered-year election. If this is a smear job, it may be coming from the GOP.

I think the timing is what it is...he's running for office and the WaPo was able to dig up stuff about his past. I mean that's one of the first things recruiters ask potential candidates, "What skeletons do you have in your closet?" Most if not all will say none, but obviously some lie.

Regardless, candidates in high-profile races will draw scrutiny. And sometimes, the skeletons are found.

It also doesn't help Moore that at this moment, women and men feel empowered (as they should) to call out sexual abusers and stop fearing them.

∞∞∞ wrote:It's a lot easier to force and coerce a 14 y/o than an 18 or 17 y/o. The fact is, the WaPo was able to find three woman that didn't know each tell similar stories, and a fourth with a far more serious one.

Innocent until proven guilty (not that he's going to trial), but I can believe it.

This.

Not a huge leap to draw connections.

He liked them young but not that young? He drew a line at 16, man.

He liked to kiss them but there's no way he'd go past first?

kalm wrote:

∞∞∞ wrote:It's a lot easier to force and coerce a 14 y/o than an 18 or 17 y/o. The fact is, the WaPo was able to find three woman that didn't know each tell similar stories, and a fourth with a far more serious one.

Innocent until proven guilty (not that he's going to trial), but I can believe it.

This.

Not a huge leap to draw connections.

He liked them young but not that young? He drew a line at 16, man.

He liked to kiss them but there's no way he'd go past first?

JSO is waving him home.

∞∞∞ wrote:It's a lot easier to force and coerce a 14 y/o than an 18 or 17 y/o. The fact is, the WaPo was able to find three woman that didn't know each tell similar stories, and a fourth with a far more serious one.

Innocent until proven guilty (not that he's going to trial), but I can believe it.

I don't think Joe is questioning he is involved with this woman.

The key questions are:

1. How old was she really when she was involved with Moore?

and

2. Did she accurately represent her age to him? There's no guarantee she didn't lie about her age just because she thought she might've found some kind of sugar daddy.

If you're seeing a teenage girl getting involved with a man that completely raises your eyebrow, you'd think you could remember a detail like the age, but no two of the witnesses could agree on her age and there's a four-year spread on those ages that legally can make a big difference.

I posted this over on AGS. When you put it that way...what's the big deal?

On the ground in Alabama, some Republicans were willing to downplay the allegations.
“Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus,” Alabama state Auditor Jim Ziegler told The Washington Examiner.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/201...al-contact-wi/

kalm wrote:I posted this over on AGS. When it put it that way...what's the big deal?

On the ground in Alabama, some Republicans were willing to downplay the allegations.
“Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus,” Alabama state Auditor Jim Ziegler told The Washington Examiner.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/201...al-contact-wi/

JoltinJoe wrote:

Chizzang wrote:

Off point, Chizz. He's a demagogue. That's a given.

I'd be curious if you think the first three sources corroborate the fourth. This post is really about the standards of modern journalism.

Joe,
I don't really care one way or the other
He's like Anthony Weiner to me in that he says completely stupid sh!t
He has a marginal grasp on the truth he's been lying so long he's pathological now

Our government is stuffed to the gills with douchebags like this...
You can't swing a dead cat down either side of the isle without hitting 2 dozen of these cunts

Pwns wrote:2. Did she accurately represent her age to him? There's no guarantee she didn't lie about her age just because she thought she might've found some kind of sugar daddy.

Does it matter? Setting aside the accusation of force, if a 30-something man has sex with a 14 y/o, it's rape no matter if she lies to you or not.

That's the point of being an adult; you are to have common sense and responsibility. If something seems off, it probably is. And you are certainly not to force yourself on anyone no matter the age.

Moore is being persecuted like Jesus...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnew ... ike-jesus/

∞∞∞ wrote:

Pwns wrote:2. Did she accurately represent her age to him? There's no guarantee she didn't lie about her age just because she thought she might've found some kind of sugar daddy.

Does it matter? Setting aside the accusation of force, if a 30-something man has sex with a 14 y/o, it's rape no matter if she lies to you or not.

That's the point of being an adult; you are to have common sense and responsibility. If something seems off, it probably is. And you are certainly not to force yourself on anyone no matter the age.

According to this (though it's a couple of years old), it only counts as statutory rape in Texas and Michigan. So yes, it matters.

This is really tough. The accusation is very serious and should be treated accordingly. The thing that concerns me about this is how quickly an accusation from decades ago could destroy someone. We want good people to run for office but anybody with a brain won't do it because of things like this. What if a jilted former lover accuses you of rape or abuse? What if you grabbed some girl's ass in a college bar? Even if it ends up being false it could destroy your marriage, your family, or your livelihood. Why would anyone want to expose themselves to that? You can understand why Mike Pence won't dine alone with a female other than his wife.

Pwns wrote:

∞∞∞ wrote:It's a lot easier to force and coerce a 14 y/o than an 18 or 17 y/o. The fact is, the WaPo was able to find three woman that didn't know each tell similar stories, and a fourth with a far more serious one.

Innocent until proven guilty (not that he's going to trial), but I can believe it.

I don't think Joe is questioning he is involved with this woman.

The key questions are:

1. How old was she really when she was involved with Moore?

and

2. Did she accurately represent her age to him? There's no guarantee she didn't lie about her age just because she thought she might've found some kind of sugar daddy.

If you're seeing a teenage girl getting involved with a man that completely raises your eyebrow, you'd think you could remember a detail like the age, but no two of the witnesses could agree on her age and there's a four-year spread on those ages that legally can make a big difference.

Yes, to be clear, I think it is highly likely there was some connection between Moore and Source 4.

But her story does not coincide with the stories told by the other sources.

Was she actually over 16 when she "dated" Moore? Is she lying about how old she was at the time she "dated" Moore?

And did Moore actually force himself on her, when he didn't do anything but kiss the others (consensually)?

Usually behavior as described by Source 4 is not isolated. Ben Bradlee would have required a lot more leg work before going with this story. And the suggestion of "corroboration" made in the article just does not really exist and was, I think, irresponsible.

Now this fourth source may be telling the truth, but her story is not really corroborated by the other three sources.

No, but the reporters did a lot more than just talking to those four sources. With respect to the 14 year old in question the story at https://www.washingtonpost.com/investig ... 1398f1363b says this:

Two of Corfman’s childhood friends say she told them at the time that she was seeing an older man, and one says Corfman identified the man as Moore. Wells says her daughter told her about the encounter more than a decade later, as Moore was becoming more prominent as a local judge.

I think we do have a problem right now in that there is movement towards establishing a paradigm whereby if a woman accuses a man and the man denies it there is a presumption n favor of the woman. But there is a corraboration of sorts with respect to the woman who says Moore gave her alcohol then felt her up when she was 14. There are others who say it's not something she just talked about for the first time.

I get a kick out of the rationalizations coming from Religious Right people involving kind of an "even if true it's not bad" approach. Like the invoking Joseph and Mary in the Jesus story as a comparison to the Roy Moore allegations:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... 50ad2a2104

Right. If it's true that Roy Moore as a 32 year old brought a 14 year old to his house, gave her alcohol, and felt her up is JUST like Joseph and Mary getting married in the Bible story.

My favorite part in all this is how McCain is telling him to step down. Did McCain even think about that when the NY Times did that hit piece on him being friendly with the woman lobbyist right before the election?

Funny how this is the standard Dem play.

SeattleGriz wrote:My favorite part in all this is how McCain is telling him to step down. Did McCain even think about that when the NY Times did that hit piece on him being friendly with the woman lobbyist right before the election?

Do you really think this is comparable? Do you think any of the allegations about McCain in that instance are comparable to allegations that Moore brought a 14 year old to his house, gave her alcohol to loosen her up, took her clothes off, and felt her up?

There is more to this story than is on the surface, the timing of this is bothersome for one. She had years to pursue this, why now.? Is someone putting her up to this?

If true, he needs to be punished to full extent of the law. It is a he said, she said situation so only they know the truth. With multiple “victims” one must wonder why they all appeared suddenly. This could either be a crime or a major hoax.




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JohnStOnge wrote:

SeattleGriz wrote:My favorite part in all this is how McCain is telling him to step down. Did McCain even think about that when the NY Times did that hit piece on him being friendly with the woman lobbyist right before the election?

Do you really think this is comparable? Do you think any of the allegations about McCain in that instance are comparable to allegations that Moore brought a 14 year old to his house, gave her alcohol to loosen her up, took her clothes off, and felt her up?

I'm saying both of them are hit pieces and McCain is a fuckhead.

Don't get me started on his piece of shit wife either.