UPDATED! Judge Cuts Water To CA:Farmers to Lose $1.5 Billion

[travelinman67]

ABC: Judge Cuts Water to California Farmers to Save Endangered Fish

By Brad Wilmouth
March 31, 2009 - 10:29 ET

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmo ... gered-fish

On the March 28 World News Saturday, ABC gave rare attention to the plight of drought-stricken farmers in California who have been denied access to a major water supply by a judge citing the Endangered Species Act to protect a type of fish. During a story recounting the unusual level of problems facing these farmers – a recession coinciding with drought – correspondent Lisa Fletcher informed viewers: "And for the first time ever, farmers may be completely cut off from one of their sources of water. Farmers don't have access to this water that runs right through the center of their farmland. It is being allocated to the delta smelt, a little fish protected by the Endangered Species Act. Conservationists say the smelt are dying in the irrigation pumps, so a judge ruled they must be shut off for much of the growing season."

Fletcher then told of an almond farmer who is now forced to spend $600,000 digging his own well. Fletcher: "That hits almond farmers, like Shawn Coburn, particularly hard. Ninety percent of the nation's almonds come from this valley, and almond trees need a lot of water. ... So Coburn is spending $600,000 to dig a new well, and he hopes to buy himself some time."

Below is a complete transcript of the story from the March 28 World News Saturday on ABC:

DAN HARRIS: In California, the problem is not too much wet weather, but not enough of it. A drought combined with the bad economy have delivered a one-two punch to the Central Valley, where much of the nation's food is grown. 100,000 acres went unplanted last year, and this year, it could be 750,000 acres. Economists say that will mean $1.5 billion in lost income and the elimination of 40,000 jobs. Lisa Fletcher is in California tonight.

LISA FLETCHER: In just a glance, you know something is very wrong.

PETE RAMIREZ, CROP DUSTER: It's like a desert. A couple of years ago, it was all farmland and everybody had a job.

THEDA LAWRENCE, MENDOTA: What are the people gonna do? How are they gonna eat whenever there's no farming?

FLETCHER: A quarter of the nation's fruits and vegetables are grown here in California's Central Valley. But the farmers here have been hit with two crises at the same time. They're in their third year of severe drought. And now, they must also cope with the worst recession in a generation. That has driven unemployment to staggering levels – 35 percent in some places, numbers that recall the Great Depression. And for the first time ever, farmers may be completely cut off from one of their sources of water. Farmers don't have access to this water that runs right through the center of their farmland. It is being allocated to the delta smelt, a little fish protected by the Endangered Species Act. Conservationists say the smelt are dying in the irrigation pumps, so a judge ruled they must be shut off for much of the growing season. That hits almond farmers, like Shawn Coburn, particularly hard. Ninety percent of the nation's almonds come from this valley, and almond trees need a lot of water.

SHAWN COBURN, ALMOND FARMER: If you have a crop that needs water year in and year out, you, it either dies, or you try to find a way to keep it alive.

FLETCHER: So Coburn is spending $600,000 to dig a new well, and he hopes to buy himself some time.

JOSE RAMIREZ, CITY MANAGER FOR FIREBAUGH, CALIFORNIA: All our people want here is a job. That's all we want. You let the water flow, food will grow, and jobs will flow after that, and we're in business.

Addl background...
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/16 ... me-water16

[dbackjon]

If the Water users had actually taken the problem seriously decades ago, when the issue was first brought up, and installed the safety measures recommended, this would not be an issue now.

Instead, they kept stalling and suing, stalling, and stalling again.


No sympathy from me for an issue that could have been resolved last century.

[travelinman67]

Congressmen want more water for California farmers

Tuesday, Mar. 31, 2009
By KEVIN FREKING - Associated Press Writer

http://www.fresnobee.com/local/story/1298951.html

WASHINGTON -- Displaying a bowl of minnows and pictures of unemployed farm workers and their families, California congressmen pleaded with their colleagues Tuesday to make an emergency exception to the federal Endangered Species Act.

The lawmakers said efforts to protect a 3-inch-long fish, the delta smelt, have led to court-ordered reductions in the amount of water pumped to some farmers in the San Joaquin Valley, leading to fallowed fields and skyrocketing unemployment.

They said even as a drought enters its third year, there is enough water in California to share with the valley's thousands of farms. Their proposal would increase the diversion of water for those farms.

In 2007, a federal judge ordered federal and state water authorities to reduce the amount of water they pump through the Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta in a bid to protect the delta smelt. The finger-length fish is considered a bellwether for the health of the delta, the heart of California's water-delivery system.

Speaking before the House Natural Resources Committee, several of the state's lawmakers discounted the drought as the reason for the San Joaquin Valley's lack of water.

Rather, they said it was a matter of priorities, with the government valuing fish over families.

Rep. Dennis Cardoza, D-Atwater, said thousands of families were moving out of his district. He called the exodus the "Dust Bowl migration in reverse."

Rep. Devin Nunes, R-Visalia, said the unemployment rate in his district is nearly 20 percent and is nearing 50 percent in some communities.

"We're not asking for a billion-dollar bailout. We're aren't even asking for one single dollar," Nunes said. "All we need is for this committee to move emergency legislation which would allow the delta pumps to return to historic export levels."

Without such action, the economic devastation will only grow worse, he said.

Experts say the water shortage in California's Central Valley, the most productive agricultural region in the country, results from myriad factors: the order to reducing delta pumping, several years of below-average precipitation and California's inability to upgrade its water system to meet the demands of a population nearing 38 million people.

The state has said it will deliver only 20 percent of the water typically allocated for cities and farms this year. The federal Bureau of Reclamation, which operates a separate system to deliver water to farmers, has said it will not deliver any water this spring to farms south of the delta. Farmers north of the delta can expect to get just 5 percent of their contracted amount.

The shortage could force farmers to idle more than 300,000 acres, leading to a loss of about 37,000 jobs. The delta also feeds drinking water to some 25 million Californians, stretching from the San Francisco Bay area to San Diego. Dozens of cities that expect to get less water from the delta this year are considering conservation measures.

Nunes, in pointed comments to the House committee, described the plight of his constituents in the most dire terms. He said the committee has been silent on the issue for two years.

"Failure to act, and it's over," he said. "You will witness the collapse of modern civilization in the San Joaquin Valley."

...and the envirowhacko's response...

With that, [Nunes] offered to submit a fishbowl filled with nine minnows for the Congressional Record. The fish were rainbow smelt, not the endangered delta smelt, which are illegal to possess without a permit.

Rep. Grace Napolitano, D-Norwalk, responded by asking him to take the plastic wrap off the bowl so the fish could get some air, which Nunes did. Napolitano served as chairwoman for Tuesday's hearing.

Doug Obegi, staff attorney with the Natural Resources Defense Council, agreed the water shortage is in some respects man-made, but he said it's because California has failed to make sufficient investments in alternate water supplies.

He said his organization opposes making exceptions to the Endangered Species Act.

"There are solutions that comply with existing law that protect endangered species and people," Obegi said. "We can do this without eviscerating protections for salmon, delta smelt and killer whales, all of which depend on a healthy delta."

Tman's response:

Mr. Obegi; Ms. Napolitano.

Please leave the U.S.

Today

While there's still hope left to save our country.

[dbackjon]

DbackJon's response:

You reap what you sow.

[dbackjon]

Of course, T-man leaves out the rebuttal:

Rep. George Miller, D-Martinez, said some of the lawmakers were "cherry picking history" and ignoring that water has been pumped into the valley at rates that exceeded what was appropriate.

That's one of the reasons the judge ordered state and federal wildlife agencies to revise how much water should be pumped out of the delta. Most of the pumping occurs from late spring through summer.

"The judge had no choice because the system was run right down to the margins where in fact he did kick in the protections of the Endangered Species Act," Miller said.

Doug Obegi, staff attorney with the Natural Resources Defense Council, agreed the water shortage is in some respects man-made, but he said it's because California has failed to make sufficient investments in alternate water supplies.

He said his organization opposes making exceptions to the Endangered Species Act.

"There are solutions that comply with existing law that protect endangered species and people," Obegi said. "We can do this without eviscerating protections for salmon, delta smelt and killer whales, all of which depend on a healthy delta."

[travelinman67]

DbackJon's response:

You reap what you sow.

That's a pretty cavalier attitude considering the seriousness of this situation.

And...did I miss it, or have you once again bitched and obstructed without offering a reasonable solution that will solve this problem BEFORE a catastrophy occurs?

No?

Then I'm sure you won't mind if I post your address for use by the 40,000 workers who will lose jobs this year as a result of this decision?

[travelinman67]

Of course, T-man leaves out the rebuttal:

Doug Obegi, staff attorney with the Natural Resources Defense Council, agreed the water shortage is in some respects man-made, but he said it's because California has failed to make sufficient investments in alternate water supplies.

He said his organization opposes making exceptions to the Endangered Species Act.

"There are solutions that comply with existing law that protect endangered species and people," Obegi said. "We can do this without eviscerating protections for salmon, delta smelt and killer whales, all of which depend on a healthy delta."

Care to list those solutions along with a cost and implementation timetable?

[dbackjon]

DbackJon's response:

You reap what you sow.

That's a pretty cavalier attitude considering the seriousness of this situation.

And...did I miss it, or have you once again bitched and obstructed without offering a reasonable solution that will solve this problem BEFORE a catastrophy occurs?

No?

Then I'm sure you won't mind if I post your address for use by the 40,000 workers who will lose jobs this year as a result of this decision?

You are insane, T-man.

There are reasonable solutions out there, but the agricultural interests have always rejected them. They want all the cheap, government-subsidized water they can waste, with out following any of the land ownership rules that came with the original goverment aid.

So you are so off base on this it is pathetic. Environmentalist TRIED, and TRIED to compromise, only to be told to FUCK OFF by the farmers.

[dbackjon]

1) Cut down the use of pesticide run-off, which is a major source of fish kill
2) And the easiest - put fish screens around the pumps.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

That's a pretty cavalier attitude considering the seriousness of this situation.

And...did I miss it, or have you once again bitched and obstructed without offering a reasonable solution that will solve this problem BEFORE a catastrophy occurs?

No?

Then I'm sure you won't mind if I post your address for use by the 40,000 workers who will lose jobs this year as a result of this decision?

You are insane, T-man.

There are reasonable solutions out there, but the agricultural interests have always rejected them. They want all the cheap, government-subsidized water they can waste, with out following any of the land ownership rules that came with the original goverment aid.

So you are so off base on this it is pathetic. Environmentalist TRIED, and TRIED to compromise, only to be told to [*]f**k OFF by the farmers.

co-rect.

[travelinman67]

1) Cut down the use of pesticide run-off, which is a major source of fish kill
2) And the easiest - put fish screens around the pumps.

You're joking...

Do your homework.

[AZGrizFan]

If the Water users had actually taken the problem seriously decades ago, when the issue was first brought up, and installed the safety measures recommended, this would not be an issue now.

Instead, they kept stalling and suing, stalling, and stalling again.


No sympathy from me for an issue that could have been resolved last century.

Jon sides with the smelt. Noted.

[Appaholic]

Tough shit for the farmers......however, are we talking about "joe the farmer" or the corporate agribusiness that has been abusing the delta for years? Sorry...if they have to dig their own wells, that's a cost of doing business....and yes, DBack, Tman is insane and a whore apologist for the agricorporations whose well-documented subsidies have contributed to the current financial mess in Cali....btw, how many of those 40k "displaced" workers have a green card? ho hum.......

[houndawg]

If the Water users had actually taken the problem seriously decades ago, when the issue was first brought up, and installed the safety measures recommended, this would not be an issue now.

Instead, they kept stalling and suing, stalling, and stalling again.


No sympathy from me for an issue that could have been resolved last century.

Jon sides with the smelt. Noted.

Dumbass shouldn't have planted almonds where the water supply couldn't be guaranteed or else should have drilled his own well a long time ago.

[Appaholic]

Jon sides with the smelt. Noted.

Dumbass shouldn't have planted almonds where the water supply couldn't be guaranteed or else should have drilled his own well a long time ago.

Yeah...where is that Republican self-sufficiency when it's really needed?

[houndawg]

DbackJon's response:

You reap what you sow.

That's a pretty cavalier attitude considering the seriousness of this situation.

And...did I miss it, or have you once again bitched and obstructed without offering a reasonable solution that will solve this problem BEFORE a catastrophy occurs?

No?

Then I'm sure you won't mind if I post your address for use by the 40,000 workers who will lose jobs this year as a result of this decision?

Don't worry, you don't know any of those workers.


Yes, you missed it, which wasn't easy since it's your thread that starts off bitching without offering a reasonable solution. Stop it man, you're killin' me!

[travelinman67]

1) Cut down the use of pesticide run-off, which is a major source of fish kill
2) And the easiest - put fish screens around the pumps.

Don't have much time this evening, but I'll try to get you up to speed on this subject as quickly as possible:

1) The State and Federal Water Projects produce on average 25 million acre feet of water annually, yet water right committments to the different districts (not for residential or urban use) equal over 200 million acre feet. Much of that was calculated and issued based upon satisfactory completion of water storage and conveyance projects which were planned but not yet completed by the early 60's.

2) The so-called "pumps" which have become the villian in this debate, only account for 5% of the Smelt kill. Numerous other causes, including predatory species and pollution, are the principal cause. The single largest source of pollution to the Delta is not farmers and not pesticides, but the Country of Sacramento's wastewater treatment plant which discharges somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 acre feet of ammonia into the Sacramento River annually. There has been no plan to reclaim that ammonia for other uses (fertilizers).

3) The problem has been correctly identified by water users, environmental activists, and the courts overseeing this (in most cases, U.S. District Judge Wanger), as a POLITICAL problem that has arisen from both state and federal politicians DODGING the issues which could correct this, specifically, the completion of additional water storage and conveyance infrastructure. This is a fact acknowledged by everyone in this debate. Environmentalist extremism goals of "restoring" the Delta to it's "original" form has been discarded by every person knowledgeable about the Delta, including most biologists and preservation groups. Yet, in spite of this fact, politicians are still operating under a mythical notion that the dams can be blown up and restoration can occur. Nothing can be further from the truth.

4) Judge Wanger has grown so tired of officiating over cases he's adjudicated in the past 20+ years, the tone of his decisions have grown terse and he's made no bones about his frustration with the politicians who've failed to act to resolve these problems. Hence, his decision this past December, which in effect made "permanent" his 2007 decision to shut down the pumps for a large portion of the year, appears to most as a decision resulting from frustration rather than jurisprudence. Worse, as each of the past three years, the watershed feeding the Delta has experienced increasingly severe drought/shortages, with 2009 projected as the worst, Judge Wanger's decision to "embed" this ruling has come at unquestionably the worst possible time, in effect, terminating ALL WATER DELIVERIES to the western valley districts for the remainder of 2009.

The reality of this debate is that the Smelt are being "used" as justification to force the politicians into acting to build minimally; a Peripheral canal to transfer water "cross-valley" from east to west, which will alleviate part of the northern district's problems with the salmon as well as allowing waters to be diverted into a larger riparian area in the East Bay Delta region, which in turn relieves some of the stresses placed upon the Smelt; and, construct more surface water STORAGE throughout the north and south regions in an attempt to "catch up" with the water shortages which have become commonplace throughout California.

Judge Wanger hosted a debate on this issue down at CSU Fresno in February, providing an introductory history on this problem, with reps. from both govt/water districts and environmental/preservation concerns, and did a FANTASTIC job of presenting this problem to everyone, and most notably, political staff representatives who attended. I STRONGLY encourage you to watch/listen to this debate (about 45 min. long, but almost all the key issues are well explained in the first 25 min.). While specific to CA, these issues are similar to many of the water management problems throughout the world.

http://129.8.242.4/videos/channels/dpg/ ... C_Hint.mov

[travelinman67]

Don't worry, you don't know any of those workers.


Yes, you missed it, which wasn't easy since it's your thread that starts off bitching without offering a reasonable solution. Stop it man, you're killin' me!

Go smoke a bowl, Driveby.

[Appaholic]

1) Cut down the use of pesticide run-off, which is a major source of fish kill

1) The State and Federal Water Projects produce on average 25 million acre feet of water annually, yet water right committments to the different districts (not for residential or urban use) equal over 200 million acre feet. Much of that was calculated and issued based upon satisfactory completion of water storage and conveyance projects which were planned but not yet completed by the early 60's.

Water calculations were knowingly based upon very "wet" water years in an attempt to railroad through unnecessary water projects. Basically, they've knowingly overallocated the water rights so folks like you can raise hell and get the government (state & local) to build more water projects....to justify more growth...to justify more construction...to..to..how much is enough? Can you seriously tell me with a straight face that if the current infrastructure supported 200 million acre feet, these same farmers wouldn't be demanding another 200 million acre feet? C'mon.....

2) The so-called "pumps" which have become the villian in this debate, only account for 5% of the Smelt kill. Numerous other causes, including predatory species and pollution, are the principal cause. The single largest source of pollution to the Delta is not farmers and not pesticides, but the Country of Sacramento's wastewater treatment plant which discharges somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 acre feet of ammonia into the Sacramento River annually. There has been no plan to reclaim that ammonia for other uses (fertilizers).

Great...it's not the pumps but the pollution...so let's build some more infrastructure to support more farm production which results in more pesticides flowing into the river....

3) The problem has been correctly identified by water users, environmental activists, and the courts overseeing this (in most cases, U.S. District Judge Wanger), as a POLITICAL problem that has arisen from both state and federal politicians DODGING the issues which could correct this, specifically, the completion of additional water storage and conveyance infrastructure. This is a fact acknowledged by everyone in this debate. Environmentalist extremism goals of "restoring" the Delta to it's "original" form has been discarded by every person knowledgeable about the Delta, including most biologists and preservation groups. Yet, in spite of this fact, politicians are still operating under a mythical notion that the dams can be blown up and restoration can occur. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Correct...a political problem brought on by power and money hungry Cali politicians and used as a smokescreen to foment populist rage at the "system". Speaking of "dodging truths" and "mythical notions", tell me again how 25 million acre feet are going to be delivered to 200 million acre feet of water rights promised? Control your fokking state....there's growth, smart growth and then plagues...Cali's growth is a plague on the natural resources of it's state. And now the legislature's irresponsible spending on projects such as the CWP are now doing what the "free" market was never allowed to do...drive people out of the state that it cannot further support....good....

4) Judge Wanger has grown so tired of officiating over cases he's adjudicated in the past 20+ years, the tone of his decisions have grown terse and he's made no bones about his frustration with the politicians who've failed to act to resolve these problems. Hence, his decision this past December, which in effect made "permanent" his 2007 decision to shut down the pumps for a large portion of the year, appears to most as a decision resulting from frustration rather than jurisprudence. Worse, as each of the past three years, the watershed feeding the Delta has experienced increasingly severe drought/shortages, with 2009 projected as the worst, Judge Wanger's decision to "embed" this ruling has come at unquestionably the worst possible time, in effect, terminating ALL WATER DELIVERIES to the western valley districts for the remainder of 2009.

He's tired, we're tired....of the water and agri lobbyists continuing this fight against the natural realities. Oh, and that drought you speak of....it's a naturally occuring phenomenon like global climate change....go back and look at the data....

The reality of this debate is that the Smelt are being "used" as justification to force the politicians into acting to build minimally; a Peripheral canal to transfer water "cross-valley" from east to west, which will alleviate part of the northern district's problems with the salmon as well as allowing waters to be diverted into a larger riparian area in the East Bay Delta region, which in turn relieves some of the stresses placed upon the Smelt; and, construct more surface water STORAGE throughout the north and south regions in an attempt to "catch up" with the water shortages which have become commonplace throughout California.

No TMan, the reality is that Cali, through the urgings of it's pro growth movement fueled by the agri and water lobby money, has over-extended itself. You've danced and now it's time to pay the band. Times change and so do priorities....it's not 1950 anymore....

[D1B]

1) The State and Federal Water Projects produce on average 25 million acre feet of water annually, yet water right committments to the different districts (not for residential or urban use) equal over 200 million acre feet. Much of that was calculated and issued based upon satisfactory completion of water storage and conveyance projects which were planned but not yet completed by the early 60's.

Water calculations were knowingly based upon very "wet" water years in an attempt to railroad through unnecessary water projects. Basically, they've knowingly overallocated the water rights so folks like you can raise hell and get the government (state & local) to build more water projects....to justify more growth...to justify more construction...to..to..how much is enough? Can you seriously tell me with a straight face that if the current infrastructure supported 200 million acre feet, these same farmers wouldn't be demanding another 200 million acre feet? C'mon.....

2) The so-called "pumps" which have become the villian in this debate, only account for 5% of the Smelt kill. Numerous other causes, including predatory species and pollution, are the principal cause. The single largest source of pollution to the Delta is not farmers and not pesticides, but the Country of Sacramento's wastewater treatment plant which discharges somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 acre feet of ammonia into the Sacramento River annually. There has been no plan to reclaim that ammonia for other uses (fertilizers).

Great...it's not the pumps but the pollution...so let's build some more infrastructure to support more farm production which results in more pesticides flowing into the river....

3) The problem has been correctly identified by water users, environmental activists, and the courts overseeing this (in most cases, U.S. District Judge Wanger), as a POLITICAL problem that has arisen from both state and federal politicians DODGING the issues which could correct this, specifically, the completion of additional water storage and conveyance infrastructure. This is a fact acknowledged by everyone in this debate. Environmentalist extremism goals of "restoring" the Delta to it's "original" form has been discarded by every person knowledgeable about the Delta, including most biologists and preservation groups. Yet, in spite of this fact, politicians are still operating under a mythical notion that the dams can be blown up and restoration can occur. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Correct...a political problem brought on by power and money hungry Cali politicians and used as a smokescreen to foment populist rage at the "system". Speaking of "dodging truths" and "mythical notions", tell me again how 25 million acre feet are going to be delivered to 200 million acre feet of water rights promised? Control your fokking state....there's growth, smart growth and then plagues...Cali's growth is a plague on the natural resources of it's state. And now the legislature's irresponsible spending on projects such as the CWP are now doing what the "free" market was never allowed to do...drive people out of the state that it cannot further support....good....

4) Judge Wanger has grown so tired of officiating over cases he's adjudicated in the past 20+ years, the tone of his decisions have grown terse and he's made no bones about his frustration with the politicians who've failed to act to resolve these problems. Hence, his decision this past December, which in effect made "permanent" his 2007 decision to shut down the pumps for a large portion of the year, appears to most as a decision resulting from frustration rather than jurisprudence. Worse, as each of the past three years, the watershed feeding the Delta has experienced increasingly severe drought/shortages, with 2009 projected as the worst, Judge Wanger's decision to "embed" this ruling has come at unquestionably the worst possible time, in effect, terminating ALL WATER DELIVERIES to the western valley districts for the remainder of 2009.

He's tired, we're tired....of the water and agri lobbyists continuing this fight against the natural realities. Oh, and that drought you speak of....it's a naturally occuring phenomenon like global climate change....go back and look at the data....

The reality of this debate is that the Smelt are being "used" as justification to force the politicians into acting to build minimally; a Peripheral canal to transfer water "cross-valley" from east to west, which will alleviate part of the northern district's problems with the salmon as well as allowing waters to be diverted into a larger riparian area in the East Bay Delta region, which in turn relieves some of the stresses placed upon the Smelt; and, construct more surface water STORAGE throughout the north and south regions in an attempt to "catch up" with the water shortages which have become commonplace throughout California.

No TMan, the reality is that Cali, through the urgings of it's pro growth movement fueled by the agri and water lobby money, has over-extended itself. You've danced and now it's time to pay the band. Times change and so do priorities....it's not 1950 anymore....

Great post App.

[travelinman67]

Water calculations were knowingly based upon very "wet" water years in an attempt to railroad through unnecessary water projects. Basically, they've knowingly overallocated the water rights so folks like you can raise hell and get the government (state & local) to build more water projects....to justify more growth...to justify more construction...to..to..how much is enough? Can you seriously tell me with a straight face that if the current infrastructure supported 200 million acre feet, these same farmers wouldn't be demanding another 200 million acre feet? C'mon.....

Negative. The highest water year for the Delta was in 1983 at 75 million acre feet. Had you studied this issue, you would have learned that the water rights were based upon ESTIMATES from 1926-1932 PROJECTIONS for Central Valley water consumption, and THOSE NUMBERS DROVE THE CORP'S WATER PROJECT DESIGNS...NOT VICE VERSA.

Great...it's not the pumps but the pollution...so let's build some more infrastructure to support more farm production which results in more pesticides flowing into the river....

That's the single most ignorant remark you've ever made. Fuck it, moron, let's just ban all farms.

Correct...a political problem brought on by power and money hungry Cali politicians and used as a smokescreen to foment populist rage at the "system". Speaking of "dodging truths" and "mythical notions", tell me again how 25 million acre feet are going to be delivered to 200 million acre feet of water rights promised? Control your fokking state....there's growth, smart growth and then plagues...Cali's growth is a plague on the natural resources of it's state. And now the legislature's irresponsible spending on projects such as the CWP are now doing what the "free" market was never allowed to do...drive people out of the state that it cannot further support....good....

Once again, you shoot your mouth off unprepared.

The 25 million acre feet is EXCLUSIVELY for farms...not urban or residential. Currently, urban and residential users HAVE NO WATER DELIVERY RIGHTS IN CALIFORNIA...THEIR NEEDS ARE DEAD LAST.
But, if you really mean what you say, then you're suggesting California has not controlled it's farms...and built "smart farms"????? And our farm growth is a "plague" on our natural resources?

And finally, on this last lunge into lunacy, please identify the legislature's "irresponsible spending" on the CWP?

Please...I'd like to see those numbers.

He's tired, we're tired....of the water and agri lobbyists continuing this fight against the natural realities. Oh, and that drought you speak of....it's a naturally occuring phenomenon like global climate change....go back and look at the data....

I'll say this again...no matter how much you attempt to go negative and personally attack me over my property investments, it will never change the fact that if the Corp of Engineers projects had been completed on the timetable put in place in 1964...we wouldn't be having this conversation today, and California wouldn't be facing a water crisis.

[travelinman67]

Great post App.

[Appaholic]

I'll say this again...no matter how much you attempt to go negative and personally attack me over my property investments, it will never change the fact that if the Corp of Engineers projects had been completed on the timetable put in place in 1964...we wouldn't be having this conversation today, and California wouldn't be facing a water crisis.

Where did I go personal? I'm attacking your arguments, not you....I have no idea what your consulting business does....But your attempt at deflecting the argument from the issue at hand to one of me "personally attacking" you is disingenous and betrays a certain insecurity in your argument. You're right, if the Corps was allowed to complete the projects in their original timetables, we wouldn't be having this argument about this water project, but about the next one......too bad Cali built their economy on a house of cards that obviously cannot be sustained without causing much damage......much like Citdog's South...(you know, if slavery hadn't been repealed, you wouldn't need illegals to work the corporate farms so vital to the state's economy)

The other arguments will have to wait until I can get home and get my data. But don't worry, I won't pull a "TMan" and not get back to you.... ...look for a response Monday as I am hopefully heading to the woods to do a little "monkeywrenching".....

[travelinman67]

I'll say this again...no matter how much you attempt to go negative and personally attack me over my property investments, it will never change the fact that if the Corp of Engineers projects had been completed on the timetable put in place in 1964...we wouldn't be having this conversation today, and California wouldn't be facing a water crisis.

Where did I go personal? I'm attacking your arguments, not you....I have no idea what your consulting business does....But your attempt at deflecting the argument from the issue at hand to one of me "personally attacking" you is disingenous and betrays a certain insecurity in your argument.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... =25#p71161

You're right, if the Corps was allowed to complete the projects in their original timetables, we wouldn't be having this argument about this water project, but about the next one......too bad Cali built their economy on a house of cards that obviously cannot be sustained without causing much damage...

The development of channels/canals to divert water from existing surface watershed sources for the purpose of agriculture began in the early 1800's under Mexico's rule. Most of the indigenous people had been forced by the Mexican government onto land grant settlements, and the major land holders who had access to the water sources were the multi-generation Spanish limpieza de sangre (noblemen) who maintained continuity of Spanish control. While the engineering methods were crude...their results were equivalent to todays methods. Sack dams, trough systems, for decades...
The fact you systemically condemn California for it's agriculture is illogical. California has one of the most fertile and productive agriculture zones ON EARTH!!! California's ag industry products support global food chains. If, as you are asserting, the focus is to maximize efficiency and productivity with a goal of minimizing environmental damage, then it would logically follow you would also support development of the MOST FERTILE AND PRODUCTIVE REGIONS.
Or is this just more nonsensical hyperbole to waste my time?

...much like Citdog's South...(you know, if slavery hadn't been repealed, you wouldn't need illegals to work the corporate farms so vital to the state's economy)

Comparing water management, for the purpose of agricultural development, to slavery? Hell, don't stop there, PFB... Let's ban all farms that use manual labor... Wait... Let's just ban all manual labor... Fuck those "corporate" bastards who make money off of manual labor...

The other arguments will have to wait until I can get home and get my data. But don't worry, I won't pull a "TMan" and not get back to you.... ...look for a response Monday as I am hopefully heading to the woods to do a little "monkeywrenching".....

[/quote]

Great...now I'm stuck listening to the driveby's for the next few days.

[Appaholic]

Where did I go personal? I'm attacking your arguments, not you....I have no idea what your consulting business does....But your attempt at deflecting the argument from the issue at hand to one of me "personally attacking" you is disingenous and betrays a certain insecurity in your argument.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... =25#p71161

"What if you built a marina and the lake didn't come?

Three more words:

Left Holding Bag"

This is the personal attack you are upset about......holy shit......