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The Stock Market knows this, which is why they plunged today.

25% Tariff on imported steel (that Trump was a big user of), 10% on aluminum will fuel inflation, and is a tax hike on every one.


Well done!!

On a related note, met with our corporate Tax CPA's today to go over new tax law and impact. The partners that were thanking Trump for the tax cut are in for a nasty surprise - most of them will end up getting a tax hike, once the state/local tax deduction limit is taken into account

While I don't like tariffs and have always been a free-trade advocate, I'm confused where Dems are on all of this? First they're for free trade when Clinton was in office, then free trade was evil and unfair when Obama was in office, free trade was bad when Hillary was running for office and the TPP was the greatest evil known to mankind (well, supposedly second right after the RUSSIANS!!!!!), then free trade and the TPP were awesome and super important to have once Trump nixed it and went the other way, and now free trade is cool again now that Trump has gone in the direction of Hawley-Smoot and is throwing up tariffs. The GOP hasn't been much better with regards to trade, and there's a camp in the GOP that's for free trade and a camp that's against it, but they generally stick to their one side of the debate and tend not flip flop depending who's in office.

It is a tough subject, because you have two conflicting forces - protecting American workers (and vital industries) vs free trade, especially when you have a foreign government unfairly subsidizing an industry.

Most Democrats I know were happy with TPP being scuttled - it was not a bad idea, just very poorly executed and stripped the US of some protections.

As far as NAFTA - I've heard more complaining from the right on it than the left, but that could be a product of being in Arizona vs Penn.

GannonFan wrote:While I don't like tariffs and have always been a free-trade advocate, I'm confused where Dems are on all of this?

Don't be

Jon spells it out for you all the time, and it follows just one rule:

If the GOP Prez is for it, be against it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dbackjon wrote:It is a tough subject, because you have two conflicting forces - protecting American workers (and vital industries) vs free trade, especially when you have a foreign government unfairly subsidizing an industry.

Most Democrats I know were happy with TPP being scuttled - it was not a bad idea, just very poorly executed and stripped the US of some protections.

As far as NAFTA - I've heard more complaining from the right on it than the left, but that could be a product of being in Arizona vs Penn.

I don't pretend that it's not complicated, but the Dems have been far more wishy-washy on it than the GOP has been (like I said, the GOP has two camps on it, but the folks in either camp tend not to move from their positions, so the GOP is split, but you know where each side stands). When folks were complaining about the TPP, it's not like free-trading Dems were saying it just had to be fixed, they sided with the folks that said to just get rid of it (or at least they did until Trump actually got rid of it, and then it was horrible that we scuttled it and we were giving the world to the Chinese).

CID1990 wrote:

GannonFan wrote:While I don't like tariffs and have always been a free-trade advocate, I'm confused where Dems are on all of this?

Don't be

Jon spells it out for you all the time, and it follows just one rule:

If the GOP Prez is for it, be against it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sadly, that seems to be accurate.

Btw, where's kalmie? He's probably out in the streets partying now that we're going back to tariffs and trade protection. 1950's here we come!!!

This is one of the potential hard policy type things that worried me about Trump the candidate. I think that if we really do end up putting a 25% tariff on steel that is going to hurt us economically even if it doesn't cause a trade war.

dbackjon wrote:It is a tough subject, because you have two conflicting forces - protecting American workers (and vital industries) vs free trade, especially when you have a foreign government unfairly subsidizing an industry.

Most Democrats I know were happy with TPP being scuttled - it was not a bad idea, just very poorly executed and stripped the US of some protections.

As far as NAFTA - I've heard more complaining from the right on it than the left, but that could be a product of being in Arizona vs Penn.

Yeah, imagine that.

CID1990 wrote:

GannonFan wrote:While I don't like tariffs and have always been a free-trade advocate, I'm confused where Dems are on all of this?

Don't be

Jon spells it out for you all the time, and it follows just one rule:

If the GOP Prez is for it, be against it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pot meet kettle. god lord your not even trying anymore.

Lawl

GannonFan wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
Don't be

Jon spells it out for you all the time, and it follows just one rule:

If the GOP Prez is for it, be against it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sadly, that seems to be accurate.

Btw, where's kalmie? He's probably out in the streets partying now that we're going back to tariffs and trade protection. 1950's here we come!!!

I never followed Klam's trade positions

And when it comes to steel and aluminum, I've said it a million times: they are strategic industries that need to be protected

But a 25/10 tariff is very, very bad

There are other ways to stimulate domestic production ... a much lower tariff is a part of that, but in combination with strategies that lower the costs of domestic production

stamping your feet on the gas with something this big and abrupt is going to hurt us and our allies, too

China will retaliate for sure


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GannonFan wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
Don't be

Jon spells it out for you all the time, and it follows just one rule:

If the GOP Prez is for it, be against it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sadly, that seems to be accurate.

Btw, where's kalmie? He's probably out in the streets partying now that we're going back to tariffs and trade protection. 1950's here we come!!!

Countries should have a right to leverage their natural resources and protect domestic industries for the betterment of their people. That’s called freedom, baby! (And what libertarians describe as rational self interest). Glad to see you’re still a Jack Abrahamoff, corporatist fanboi.

CID1990 wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
Sadly, that seems to be accurate.

Btw, where's kalmie? He's probably out in the streets partying now that we're going back to tariffs and trade protection. 1950's here we come!!!

I never followed Klam's trade positions

And when it comes to steel and aluminum, I've said it a million times: they are strategic industries that need to be protected

But a 25/10 tariff is very, very bad

There are other ways to stimulate domestic production ... a much lower tariff is a part of that, but in combination with strategies that lower the costs of domestic production

stamping your feet on the gas with something this big and abrupt is going to hurt us and our allies, too

China will retaliate for sure


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How would you lower the cost of domestic production? How do you get someone like Trump (the developer) to not use Chinese steel on his hotels he is getting tax breaks to build in the first place?

And yes, we need domestic steel and aluminum industries to protect our vital interests.

dbackjon wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
I never followed Klam's trade positions

And when it comes to steel and aluminum, I've said it a million times: they are strategic industries that need to be protected

But a 25/10 tariff is very, very bad

There are other ways to stimulate domestic production ... a much lower tariff is a part of that, but in combination with strategies that lower the costs of domestic production

stamping your feet on the gas with something this big and abrupt is going to hurt us and our allies, too

China will retaliate for sure


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How would you lower the cost of domestic production? How do you get someone like Trump (the developer) to not use Chinese steel on his hotels he is getting tax breaks to build in the first place?

And yes, we need domestic steel and aluminum industries to protect our vital interests.

Well there's no perfect solution, is there?

The tariff is a part of the solution, but not so much that you stifle trade. There's nothing wrong with buying foreign steel for example - but you want there to be some domestic demand and to do that in the US that means favorable corporate tax rates for strategic industries, among other things


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

kalm wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
Sadly, that seems to be accurate.

Btw, where's kalmie? He's probably out in the streets partying now that we're going back to tariffs and trade protection. 1950's here we come!!!

Countries should have a right to leverage their natural resources and protect domestic industries for the betterment of their people. That’s called freedom, baby! (And what libertarians describe as rational self interest). Glad to see you’re still a Jack Abrahamoff, corporatist fanboi.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I say when I am talking about the steel, aluminum and petroleum industries

Basically reductio ad absurdum on the wrong topic


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CID1990 wrote:

dbackjon wrote:

How would you lower the cost of domestic production? How do you get someone like Trump (the developer) to not use Chinese steel on his hotels he is getting tax breaks to build in the first place?

And yes, we need domestic steel and aluminum industries to protect our vital interests.

Well there's no perfect solution, is there?

The tariff is a part of the solution, but not so much that you stifle trade. There's nothing wrong with buying foreign steel for example - but you want there to be some domestic demand and to do that in the US that means favorable corporate tax rates for strategic industries, among other things


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope, not an easy solution at all. And taking a sledgehammer approach doesn't work either. Using the tax code would help, as would requirements for companies building using any type of tax credit (hey Raiders - you are getting tax breaks and tax money to build your stadium - to get these, you have to be 100% domestic materials).

CID1990 wrote:

kalm wrote:
Countries should have a right to leverage their natural resources and protect domestic industries for the betterment of their people. That’s called freedom, baby! (And what libertarians describe as rational self interest). Glad to see you’re still a Jack Abrahamoff, corporatist fanboi.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I say when I am talking about the steel, aluminum and petroleum industries

Basically reductio ad absurdum on the wrong topic


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Um yeah...I quoted Ganny here. Not everything is about you, attention whore.

Remember: Squid, pro, row....

First of all Trump doesn't buy Chinese steel...
His contractors do

My brother doesn't buy Canadian lumber
his framing contractor does
My brother has no idea where the lumber in his projects comes from



Packages go out for bid...
it's complicated web of inter-related businesses
To solve a problem one must first understand how things "Get Made"

Resource management and procurement of steel wood concrete paint glass
These things have complicated processes
wood needs to sit and age in massive inland warehouses
Steel is stored in I-beam and raw plank in warehousing facilities the size of football stadiums

This idea that Joe buys steel and john buys wood
is good for CNN and Fox news but this sin't quite right

Read something, but have not verified, that one of the biggest impacts of the aluminum tariff would be on a Russian oligarch that is BFF with Putin.

dbackjon wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
Well there's no perfect solution, is there?

The tariff is a part of the solution, but not so much that you stifle trade. There's nothing wrong with buying foreign steel for example - but you want there to be some domestic demand and to do that in the US that means favorable corporate tax rates for strategic industries, among other things


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope, not an easy solution at all. And taking a sledgehammer approach doesn't work either. Using the tax code would help, as would requirements for companies building using any type of tax credit (hey Raiders - you are getting tax breaks and tax money to build your stadium - to get these, you have to be 100% domestic materials).

There you go - the solutions are out there, but it isn't until someone like a Trump pulls out the sledgehammer that people give a damn

There's very little good to take away from this but if I had to look for one I would say that its good that we might finally have a discussion on why it is important to maintain the ability to immediately ramp up the capability to provide our own steel and aluminum and petroleum domestically. It doesn't mean we actually do it, but maintain the ability to do it.

HI54UNI wrote:Read something, but have not verified, that one of the biggest impacts of the aluminum tariff would be on a Russian oligarch that is BFF with Putin.

Deripaska?

Nyet, tovarish. He stepped down last week. Good timing!

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-ty ... 1519388869

CID1990 wrote:

dbackjon wrote:
Nope, not an easy solution at all. And taking a sledgehammer approach doesn't work either. Using the tax code would help, as would requirements for companies building using any type of tax credit (hey Raiders - you are getting tax breaks and tax money to build your stadium - to get these, you have to be 100% domestic materials).

There you go - the solutions are out there, but it isn't until someone like a Trump pulls out the sledgehammer that people give a damn

There's very little good to take away from this but if I had to look for one I would say that its good that we might finally have a discussion on why it is important to maintain the ability to immediately ramp up the capability to provide our own steel and aluminum and petroleum domestically. It doesn't mean we actually do it, but maintain the ability to do it.

Did any of the Obama haters ever recognize when he did something good..? Hardly
Will any Trump hater recognize when he does good... Even if it's not how you'd do it
if good gets done - it gets done

That is the question I have to ask myself weekly now days
Can I see the good of this... will I recognize it when it happens ..?

Nicht gut. That’s all I have to say.

Chizzang wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
There you go - the solutions are out there, but it isn't until someone like a Trump pulls out the sledgehammer that people give a damn

There's very little good to take away from this but if I had to look for one I would say that its good that we might finally have a discussion on why it is important to maintain the ability to immediately ramp up the capability to provide our own steel and aluminum and petroleum domestically. It doesn't mean we actually do it, but maintain the ability to do it.

Did any of the Obama haters ever recognize when he did something good..? Hardly
Will any Trump hater recognize when he does good... Even if it's not how you'd do it
if good gets done - it gets done

That is the question I have to ask myself weekly now days
Can I see the good of this... will I recognize it when it happens ..?

I rarely pay much attention to trade and econ policy but there are a few things (like strategic industries) that I do perk up at

But for the most part I pay attention to foreign policy - and I found Obama and his two Secretaries of State to be severely lacking in just about every way they could be - naive, feckless, arrogant and policy was 100% politically driven

I'm sure there was some other venue where that administration did some beneficial things for the country, but our fp was a continual amateur hour of the lefty kind

now we have something similar of the righty-hawky kind


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CID1990 wrote:

Chizzang wrote:

Did any of the Obama haters ever recognize when he did something good..? Hardly
Will any Trump hater recognize when he does good... Even if it's not how you'd do it
if good gets done - it gets done

That is the question I have to ask myself weekly now days
Can I see the good of this... will I recognize it when it happens ..?

I rarely pay much attention to trade and econ policy but there are a few things (like strategic industries) that I do perk up at

But for the most part I pay attention to foreign policy - and I found Obama and his two Secretaries of State to be severely lacking in just about every way they could be - naive, feckless, arrogant and policy was 100% politically driven

I'm sure there was some other venue where that administration did some beneficial things for the country, but our fp was a continual amateur hour of the lefty kind

now we have something similar of the righty-hawky kind

Yeah...
I admit freely Trump is an absolute advantage in that regard
and I just wish the "intelligent Left" would admit it too - other than Sam Harris and Joe Rogan

The most hated Leftists (Sam and Joe) are the only ones who actually "get it"

yeah Trump is a boorish cunt with almost no knowledge of the situation but his GUT REACTION is correct
and I'll take that every time over situational meta-political-bull-sh!t

and yes...
He has fucked his child - YES - his wife would stab him in the heart with a dagger
it's that weird in Rome right now