2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

[Col Hogan]

It appears that Uncle Joe’s entry into the nomination race has impacted the cash train for Bernie...

Sen. Bernie Sanders’ presidential campaign has seen a huge drop in donations since former Vice President Joe Biden entered the race, and he’s begging donors to “dig a little deeper.”

In a long email promising to undo President Trump’s actions if elected, Sanders' campaign manager Faiz Shakir revealed that the average donation to the Vermont senator’s operation has been cut in half.

“I’m about to ask you to make a contribution, and I hope that it is clear why. But first, I want to be up front with you that our average contribution — which used to be $27 — has been almost half that in the last couple weeks. It’s OK for now, but we would really like to see if you can dig a little deeper if you’re able to,” he wrote.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wash ... tle-deeper

[Ivytalk]

“The homosexual agenda”?

Guess you won’t vote for Buttigieg over Trump, then.

Sure I would. He's clearly a better choice. Won't make a difference because I'll be voting in Louisiana but hell yes I'd vote for Buttigieg if the choice is him or Trump.

Then you’re supporting the homosexual agenda.

[JohnStOnge]

Sure I would. He's clearly a better choice. Won't make a difference because I'll be voting in Louisiana but hell yes I'd vote for Buttigieg if the choice is him or Trump.

Then you’re supporting the homosexual agenda.

I suppose so. But it's better than supporting what's going on with the Republican side and Trump. It's better than supporting the complete corruption agenda.

Aside from that, I have NEVER been one to let the sexual orientation of the person I'm looking at be a factor in my assessment of their ability to do the job. And I think Buttigieg is CLEARLY a far more competent person than Trump is. Smarter. More moral overall. More honest. Better understanding of the world around him. Volunteered to serve in the Armed Forces during a war while Trump got his "bone spurs" excuse.

There's no comparison. Buttigieg is a better, more competent person than Trump is. No question I'd be more comfortable with him in the President's position than I am with the atrocity that is Trump.

[Winterborn]

Joe Biden has a campaign website now.

https://joebiden.info/

[Chizzang]

Joe Biden has a campaign website now.

https://joebiden.info/

THAT..!!! ^ is hilarious

[Ivytalk]

Joe Biden has a campaign website now.

https://joebiden.info/

Give ‘em a pounding, Joe!

[BDKJMU]

Then you’re supporting the homosexual agenda.

I suppose so. But it's better than supporting what's going on with the Republican side and Trump. It's better than supporting the complete corruption agenda.

Aside from that, I have NEVER been one to let the sexual orientation of the person I'm looking at be a factor in my assessment of their ability to do the job. And I think Buttigieg is CLEARLY a far more competent person than Trump is. Smarter. More moral overall. More honest. Better understanding of the world around him. Volunteered to serve in the Armed Forces during a war while Trump got his "bone spurs" excuse.

There's no comparison. Buttigieg is a better, more competent person than Trump is. No question I'd be more comfortable with him in the President's position than I am with the atrocity that is Trump.

I found a really interesting paper at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2072932/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . As of 2003 when the paper was published, anyway, it was looking more and more like homosexuals do indeed suffer from higher rates of mental illness than heterosexuals do. The author's hypothesis is that the reason for it is "minority stress." And it's a reasonable hypothesis. If you want to avoid reading a long post and just get to the bottom line, go to the paragraph in bold text. Then if you're interested enough to see the supporting discussion you can do that.

But as far as things related to this discussion go; I was struck by the discussion in the "Research Evidence: Between-Groups Studies on Prevalence of Mental Disorder" section. You can go there by doing a "Find" on "Research Evidence: Between." It provides a history. The author wrote that, "Before the 1973 declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, gay-affirmative psychologists and psychiatrists sought to refute arguments that homosexuality should remain a classified disorder by showing that homosexuals were not more likely to be mentally ill than heterosexuals."

Farther down he wrote, "More recently, there has been a shift in the popular and scientific discourse on the mental health of lesbians and gay men. Gay-affirmative advocates have begun to advance a minority stress hypothesis, claiming that discriminatory social conditions lead to poor health outcomes." And he goes on to refer to research suggesting that homosexual populations are in fact affected by mental illnesses at greater rates.

Now here is what I find really interesting about that: If the author is correct, evidence from subsequent studies suggests that the premise upon which the "gay-affirmative psychologists and psychiatrists" of the 1970s based their argument that homosexuality should be removed from the list of disorders is false. They based their arguments on the idea that homosexuals do not suffer mental illnesses at greater rates, and it appears as though homosexuals do in fact suffer mental illnesses at greater rates.

And at least some homosexual advocates have switched from insisting that there are no differences in rates to pointing to differences in rates and lamenting "minority stress" as well as the need to do something about it.

There's a lot more in the paper. Early studies tended to be based on "non random" samples and subsequent studies based on large "random" (probability) samples changed the picture. The author noted that studies based on "non random" samples he looked at did not show "significant" differences but studies based on "random" samples he looked at DID show "significant" differences. And if you know me you know I like to point out that you need to have a probability sample to make a legitimate estimate.

Since the paper was published almost nine years ago, I've written him an e mail asking if he has seen anything change in the research to change his outlook on the general proposition that homosexuals suffer mental illnesses at greater rates.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p676971

I'll take this occasion to again say how much this homosexuality thing in modern Western Civilization reminds me of the "Emperor's New Clothes" fable. You put out the line that if you're "enlightened" you're going to believe something and no matter how obviously ridiculous that something is people are going to believe it or at least SAY they believe it so they won't be labeled as "backwards" or "ignorant."

Well, you know, there comes a time when you have to have the guts to say the Emperor has no clothes and this is a case where the Emperor has not clothes. Like saying being homosexual vs. being heterosexual is like having blue eyes vs. having brown eyes. Good GRIEF.

If people will buy this "homosexuality is not a disorder" crap they will buy anything. Unfortunately, I think we have now established that at least a substantial majority of people in this culture will buy anything.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p976502

Why don't you accept gay folks?

What I don't accept is the crap about homosexuality not being a disorder. If you're truly homosexual, you're sick.

What I find hard to believe is that there's anybody that can't see that.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p999064

[BDKJMU]

Joe Biden has a campaign website now.

https://joebiden.info/

Joe “Buy a shotgun” Biden:
1988: I believed Anita Hill was lying.
2019: I believed Anita Hill was telling the truth.

-Flip flopped on gay marriage.
-Flipped flopped on school bussing.
-Flipped flopped on abortion.
-Flip flopped on the Iraq War.
-Flip flopped on tough on crime.

What hasn’t he flipped flopped on?

[CID1990]

Joe Biden has a campaign website now.

https://joebiden.info/

Joe “Buy a shotgun” Biden:
1988: I believed Anita Hill was lying.
2019: I believed Anita Hill was telling the truth.

-Flip flopped on gay marriage.
-Flipped flopped on school bussing.
-Flipped flopped on abortion.
-Flip flopped on the Iraq War.
-Flip flopped on tough on crime.

What hasn’t he flipped flopped on?

Wokeness, like being “saved”, can happen like a thunderclap

Both are largely based on mythology, also


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chizzang]

Joe Biden has a campaign website now.

https://joebiden.info/

Joe “Buy a shotgun” Biden:
1988: I believed Anita Hill was lying.
2019: I believed Anita Hill was telling the truth.

-Flip flopped on gay marriage.
-Flipped flopped on school bussing.
-Flipped flopped on abortion.
-Flip flopped on the Iraq War.
-Flip flopped on tough on crime.

What hasn’t he flipped flopped on?

It doesn't matter if somebody changes their mind...
the question is - does he have it correct now..?

Why people act like changing your mind based on new information is a bad thing ?

WTF?

[CID1990]

Joe “Buy a shotgun” Biden:
1988: I believed Anita Hill was lying.
2019: I believed Anita Hill was telling the truth.

-Flip flopped on gay marriage.
-Flipped flopped on school bussing.
-Flipped flopped on abortion.
-Flip flopped on the Iraq War.
-Flip flopped on tough on crime.

What hasn’t he flipped flopped on?

It doesn't matter if somebody changes their mind...
the question is - does he have it correct now..?

Why people act like changing your mind based on new information is a bad thing ?

WTF?

That’s true!

Imagine what ol Robert E Lee would be like if he were here today

Probably marching with Code Pink

Hell, Strom Thurmond even hired a few black folk for his office


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ivytalk]

It doesn't matter if somebody changes their mind...
the question is - does he have it correct now..?
M9
Why people act like changing your mind based on new information is a bad thing ?

WTF?

Hell, Strom Thurmond even hired a few black folk for his office


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Slept with one or two, also, as I recall.

[Chizzang]

Scout Mindset vs. Soldier Mindset
worthy of your 10 minutes

https://www.ted.com/talks/julia_galef_w ... u_re_wrong

[CID1990]

Joe “Buy a shotgun” Biden:
1988: I believed Anita Hill was lying.
2019: I believed Anita Hill was telling the truth.

-Flip flopped on gay marriage.
-Flipped flopped on school bussing.
-Flipped flopped on abortion.
-Flip flopped on the Iraq War.
-Flip flopped on tough on crime.

What hasn’t he flipped flopped on?

It doesn't matter if somebody changes their mind...
the question is - does he have it correct now..?

Why people act like changing your mind based on new information is a bad thing ?

WTF?

Actually ... in all seriousness-

I don’t believe retail politicians when they publicly change their minds

they might be sincere, but it is very hard to know. Given that the path to greatest reward for a politician is to point to the popular wind, there is a nearly irresistible temptation there and there are precious few of them who do resist it

Biden wants to be President. Just like he wanted to be a VP and a Senator. He changed all of his positions precisely when it would have cost him politically not to do so.

Biden is in good company. I can name only two or three 20th century national politicians who I would consider to have strength of honest convictions. He isn’t one of them.

But you’re right .... for those of us who aren’t trying to get at least 90 million people to vote for us, changing one’s mind is a good thing if you wind up in the right place

Things I’ve changed my mind on:

Capital punishment
State socialism
Abraham Lincoln
toilet paper roll orientation
James Carter (the saxophonist not the President)
Need based public assistance
pistols
dog meat



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pwns]

Joe “Buy a shotgun” Biden:
1988: I believed Anita Hill was lying.
2019: I believed Anita Hill was telling the truth.

-Flip flopped on gay marriage.
-Flipped flopped on school bussing.
-Flipped flopped on abortion.
-Flip flopped on the Iraq War.
-Flip flopped on tough on crime.

What hasn’t he flipped flopped on?

It doesn't matter if somebody changes their mind...
the question is - does he have it correct now..?

Why people act like changing your mind based on new information is a bad thing ?

WTF?

What about changing your mind based on what's trendy?

[Winterborn]

Actually ... in all seriousness-

I don’t believe retail politicians when they publicly change their minds

they might be sincere, but it is very hard to know. Given that the path to greatest reward for a politician is to point to the popular wind, there is a nearly irresistible temptation there and there are precious few of them who do resist it

Biden wants to be President. Just like he wanted to be a VP and a Senator. He changed all of his positions precisely when it would have cost him politically not to do so.

Biden is in good company. I can name only two or three 20th century national politicians who I would consider to have strength of honest convictions. He isn’t one of them.

But you’re right .... for those of us who aren’t trying to get at least 90 million people to vote for us, changing one’s mind is a good thing if you wind up in the right place

Things I’ve changed my mind on:

Capital punishment
State socialism
Abraham Lincoln
toilet paper roll orientation
James Carter (the saxophonist not the President)
Need based public assistance
pistols
dog meat

Over or under camp now?

[Ibanez]

I suppose so. But it's better than supporting what's going on with the Republican side and Trump. It's better than supporting the complete corruption agenda.

Aside from that, I have NEVER been one to let the sexual orientation of the person I'm looking at be a factor in my assessment of their ability to do the job. And I think Buttigieg is CLEARLY a far more competent person than Trump is. Smarter. More moral overall. More honest. Better understanding of the world around him. Volunteered to serve in the Armed Forces during a war while Trump got his "bone spurs" excuse.

There's no comparison. Buttigieg is a better, more competent person than Trump is. No question I'd be more comfortable with him in the President's position than I am with the atrocity that is Trump.

I found a really interesting paper at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2072932/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . As of 2003 when the paper was published, anyway, it was looking more and more like homosexuals do indeed suffer from higher rates of mental illness than heterosexuals do. The author's hypothesis is that the reason for it is "minority stress." And it's a reasonable hypothesis. If you want to avoid reading a long post and just get to the bottom line, go to the paragraph in bold text. Then if you're interested enough to see the supporting discussion you can do that.

But as far as things related to this discussion go; I was struck by the discussion in the "Research Evidence: Between-Groups Studies on Prevalence of Mental Disorder" section. You can go there by doing a "Find" on "Research Evidence: Between." It provides a history. The author wrote that, "Before the 1973 declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, gay-affirmative psychologists and psychiatrists sought to refute arguments that homosexuality should remain a classified disorder by showing that homosexuals were not more likely to be mentally ill than heterosexuals."

Farther down he wrote, "More recently, there has been a shift in the popular and scientific discourse on the mental health of lesbians and gay men. Gay-affirmative advocates have begun to advance a minority stress hypothesis, claiming that discriminatory social conditions lead to poor health outcomes." And he goes on to refer to research suggesting that homosexual populations are in fact affected by mental illnesses at greater rates.

Now here is what I find really interesting about that: If the author is correct, evidence from subsequent studies suggests that the premise upon which the "gay-affirmative psychologists and psychiatrists" of the 1970s based their argument that homosexuality should be removed from the list of disorders is false. They based their arguments on the idea that homosexuals do not suffer mental illnesses at greater rates, and it appears as though homosexuals do in fact suffer mental illnesses at greater rates.

And at least some homosexual advocates have switched from insisting that there are no differences in rates to pointing to differences in rates and lamenting "minority stress" as well as the need to do something about it.

There's a lot more in the paper. Early studies tended to be based on "non random" samples and subsequent studies based on large "random" (probability) samples changed the picture. The author noted that studies based on "non random" samples he looked at did not show "significant" differences but studies based on "random" samples he looked at DID show "significant" differences. And if you know me you know I like to point out that you need to have a probability sample to make a legitimate estimate.

Since the paper was published almost nine years ago, I've written him an e mail asking if he has seen anything change in the research to change his outlook on the general proposition that homosexuals suffer mental illnesses at greater rates.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p676971

I'll take this occasion to again say how much this homosexuality thing in modern Western Civilization reminds me of the "Emperor's New Clothes" fable. You put out the line that if you're "enlightened" you're going to believe something and no matter how obviously ridiculous that something is people are going to believe it or at least SAY they believe it so they won't be labeled as "backwards" or "ignorant."

Well, you know, there comes a time when you have to have the guts to say the Emperor has no clothes and this is a case where the Emperor has not clothes. Like saying being homosexual vs. being heterosexual is like having blue eyes vs. having brown eyes. Good GRIEF.

If people will buy this "homosexuality is not a disorder" crap they will buy anything. Unfortunately, I think we have now established that at least a substantial majority of people in this culture will buy anything.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p976502

What I don't accept is the crap about homosexuality not being a disorder. If you're truly homosexual, you're sick.

What I find hard to believe is that there's anybody that can't see that.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p999064

Yeah - that was a stupid statement from John.

[Ibanez]

Joe Biden has a campaign website now.

https://joebiden.info/

Joe “Buy a shotgun” Biden:
1991: I believed Anita Hill was lying.
2019: I believed Anita Hill was telling the truth.

-Flip flopped on gay marriage.
-Flipped flopped on school bussing.
-Flipped flopped on abortion.
-Flip flopped on the Iraq War.
-Flip flopped on tough on crime.

What hasn’t he flipped flopped on?

FIFY

"flip flopped" is purely partisan. Are we saying a person can't change their opinion or perspective? Or later regret a decision?

[Ibanez]

It doesn't matter if somebody changes their mind...
the question is - does he have it correct now..?

Why people act like changing your mind based on new information is a bad thing ?

WTF?

Actually ... in all seriousness-

I don’t believe retail politicians when they publicly change their minds

they might be sincere, but it is very hard to know. Given that the path to greatest reward for a politician is to point to the popular wind, there is a nearly irresistible temptation there and there are precious few of them who do resist it

Biden wants to be President. Just like he wanted to be a VP and a Senator. He changed all of his positions precisely when it would have cost him politically not to do so.

Biden is in good company. I can name only two or three 20th century national politicians who I would consider to have strength of honest convictions. He isn’t one of them.

But you’re right .... for those of us who aren’t trying to get at least 90 million people to vote for us, changing one’s mind is a good thing if you wind up in the right place

Things I’ve changed my mind on:

Capital punishment
State socialism
Abraham Lincoln
toilet paper roll orientation
James Carter (the saxophonist not the President)
Need based public assistance
pistols
dog meat



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm interested to hear what you have got to say about Lincoln. I've changed my opinion about him in the last 3 years.

[AZGrizFan]

I suppose so. But it's better than supporting what's going on with the Republican side and Trump. It's better than supporting the complete corruption agenda.

Aside from that, I have NEVER been one to let the sexual orientation of the person I'm looking at be a factor in my assessment of their ability to do the job. And I think Buttigieg is CLEARLY a far more competent person than Trump is. Smarter. More moral overall. More honest. Better understanding of the world around him. Volunteered to serve in the Armed Forces during a war while Trump got his "bone spurs" excuse.

There's no comparison. Buttigieg is a better, more competent person than Trump is. No question I'd be more comfortable with him in the President's position than I am with the atrocity that is Trump.

I found a really interesting paper at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2072932/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . As of 2003 when the paper was published, anyway, it was looking more and more like homosexuals do indeed suffer from higher rates of mental illness than heterosexuals do. The author's hypothesis is that the reason for it is "minority stress." And it's a reasonable hypothesis. If you want to avoid reading a long post and just get to the bottom line, go to the paragraph in bold text. Then if you're interested enough to see the supporting discussion you can do that.

But as far as things related to this discussion go; I was struck by the discussion in the "Research Evidence: Between-Groups Studies on Prevalence of Mental Disorder" section. You can go there by doing a "Find" on "Research Evidence: Between." It provides a history. The author wrote that, "Before the 1973 declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, gay-affirmative psychologists and psychiatrists sought to refute arguments that homosexuality should remain a classified disorder by showing that homosexuals were not more likely to be mentally ill than heterosexuals."

Farther down he wrote, "More recently, there has been a shift in the popular and scientific discourse on the mental health of lesbians and gay men. Gay-affirmative advocates have begun to advance a minority stress hypothesis, claiming that discriminatory social conditions lead to poor health outcomes." And he goes on to refer to research suggesting that homosexual populations are in fact affected by mental illnesses at greater rates.

Now here is what I find really interesting about that: If the author is correct, evidence from subsequent studies suggests that the premise upon which the "gay-affirmative psychologists and psychiatrists" of the 1970s based their argument that homosexuality should be removed from the list of disorders is false. They based their arguments on the idea that homosexuals do not suffer mental illnesses at greater rates, and it appears as though homosexuals do in fact suffer mental illnesses at greater rates.

And at least some homosexual advocates have switched from insisting that there are no differences in rates to pointing to differences in rates and lamenting "minority stress" as well as the need to do something about it.

There's a lot more in the paper. Early studies tended to be based on "non random" samples and subsequent studies based on large "random" (probability) samples changed the picture. The author noted that studies based on "non random" samples he looked at did not show "significant" differences but studies based on "random" samples he looked at DID show "significant" differences. And if you know me you know I like to point out that you need to have a probability sample to make a legitimate estimate.

Since the paper was published almost nine years ago, I've written him an e mail asking if he has seen anything change in the research to change his outlook on the general proposition that homosexuals suffer mental illnesses at greater rates.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p676971

I'll take this occasion to again say how much this homosexuality thing in modern Western Civilization reminds me of the "Emperor's New Clothes" fable. You put out the line that if you're "enlightened" you're going to believe something and no matter how obviously ridiculous that something is people are going to believe it or at least SAY they believe it so they won't be labeled as "backwards" or "ignorant."

Well, you know, there comes a time when you have to have the guts to say the Emperor has no clothes and this is a case where the Emperor has not clothes. Like saying being homosexual vs. being heterosexual is like having blue eyes vs. having brown eyes. Good GRIEF.

If people will buy this "homosexuality is not a disorder" crap they will buy anything. Unfortunately, I think we have now established that at least a substantial majority of people in this culture will buy anything.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p976502

What I don't accept is the crap about homosexuality not being a disorder. If you're truly homosexual, you're sick.

What I find hard to believe is that there's anybody that can't see that.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p999064

What a fucking beatdown.

[UNI88]

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p676971


http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p976502


http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/ ... al#p999064

What a **** beatdown.

Somebody should check John for a concussion and broken jaw. That uppercut would have knocked most people out but John's like Rocky. He'll take his standing 8 count and continue on, ignoring anything that doesn't fit his narrative.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[BDKJMU]

Joe “Buy a shotgun” Biden:
1991: I believed Anita Hill was lying.
2019: I believed Anita Hill was telling the truth.

-Flip flopped on gay marriage.
-Flipped flopped on school bussing.
-Flipped flopped on abortion.
-Flip flopped on the Iraq War.
-Flip flopped on tough on crime.

What hasn’t he flipped flopped on?

FIFY

"flip flopped" is purely partisan. Are we saying a person can't change their opinion or perspective? Or later regret a decision?

Sure you can changed your mind - its a free country. But changing tour mind on numerous issues and regretting numerous decisions for political reasons to to be woke based on what’s trendy doesn’t make you not a flip flopper.

[Chizzang]

FIFY

"flip flopped" is purely partisan. Are we saying a person can't change their opinion or perspective? Or later regret a decision?

Sure you can changed your mind - its a free country. But changing tour mind on numerous issues and regretting numerous decisions for political reasons to to be woke based on what’s trendy doesn’t make you not a flip flopper.

I'm still not sure that is uniformly a bad thing..?
Regardless of trendiness or whatever

as long as whoever it is ultimately gets it right what's the difference..?
The Republicans are flip flopping on Marijuana

The act of thinking and postulating should be fluid
too many people are married to bad ideas

accepting new data and informing yourself should never be seen as bad

[BDKJMU]

Sure you can changed your mind - its a free country. But changing tour mind on numerous issues and regretting numerous decisions for political reasons to to be woke based on what’s trendy doesn’t make you not a flip flopper.

I'm still not sure that is uniformly a bad thing..?
Regardless of trendiness or whatever

as long as whoever it is ultimately gets it right what's the difference..?
The Republicans are flip flopping on Marijuana

The act of thinking and postulating should be fluid
too many people are married to bad ideas

accepting new data and informing yourself should never be seen as bad

The fluid thinking and postulating the Groper is doing is how does he reconcile his old votes with the current left democrat primary electorate. Its not due to some personal enlightenment at a very old age.

If there was a mythical centrist party that Crazy Uncle Joe was running for, Anita Hill would still be lying, bussing would still be bad, being tough on crime would still be ok, etc, etc..

The only new data he’s concerned about informing himself with is poll data to dictate how which issues he needs to flip flop on...

[kalm]

Sure you can changed your mind - its a free country. But changing tour mind on numerous issues and regretting numerous decisions for political reasons to to be woke based on what’s trendy doesn’t make you not a flip flopper.

I'm still not sure that is uniformly a bad thing..?
Regardless of trendiness or whatever

as long as whoever it is ultimately gets it right what's the difference..?
The Republicans are flip flopping on Marijuana

The act of thinking and postulating should be fluid
too many people are married to bad ideas

accepting new data and informing yourself should never be seen as bad

It’s not.

While the left is guilty of being wushu washy, the very DNA of a conservative is to never admit you’re wrong and take that shit to the grave.

Both mindsets have their advantages.