Chinese Trade War

[JohnStOnge]

Heard a British Ambassador to China talking about it today on NPR. Her take included the idea that the Chinese political system is such that they can play the long game in a way US politicians cannot. Nevertheless, she was optimistic about things working out.

All other things aside, we have a complete idiot leading the US side. I think what's going to happen is that at some point Trump is going to claim victory when nothing really changed then periodically lie as necessary to reinforce the impression he hopes to create.

The well known true story about Trump having construction workers move dirt around on a development site ot make it look to investors like progress was being made when it really wasn't captures Trump in a nutshell. It's what he does. Con man to the core.

Did you not pay attention to what Trump's team has been doing? They've been looking at this and preparing long before they started. Knew China was going to pull this and started negotiations with S Korea, Vietnam and a couple others in Nov, 2017 about replacing China as the supplier.

They are not going to replace China as a supplier. When you are talking about the Chinese vs. Trump you are talking about men vs. boy (mentally) and Trump is not among the men.

[SeattleGriz]

Did you not pay attention to what Trump's team has been doing? They've been looking at this and preparing long before they started. Knew China was going to pull this and started negotiations with S Korea, Vietnam and a couple others in Nov, 2017 about replacing China as the supplier.

They are not going to replace China as a supplier. When you are talking about the Chinese vs. Trump you are talking about men vs. boy (mentally) and Trump is not among the men.

That sounds like a bet! I think Trump gets the better of the Chinese. Levels the field.

By the way, the experts are already discussing the broken supply chains, which leads to establishing new ones...with other nations.

[JohnStOnge]

They are not going to replace China as a supplier. When you are talking about the Chinese vs. Trump you are talking about men vs. boy (mentally) and Trump is not among the men.

That sounds like a bet! I think Trump gets the better of the Chinese. Levels the field.

By the way, the experts are already discussing the broken supply chains, which leads to establishing new ones...with other nations.

Yeah Ok. We'll see. We're talking about a country that has 1/5 of the world's population and a bigger GDP than the United States does.

[SeattleGriz]

That sounds like a bet! I think Trump gets the better of the Chinese. Levels the field.

By the way, the experts are already discussing the broken supply chains, which leads to establishing new ones...with other nations.

Yeah Ok. We'll see. We're talking about a country that has 1/5 of the world's population and a bigger GDP than the United States does.

China's GDP is bigger than America's?

[GannonFan]

Did you not pay attention to what Trump's team has been doing? They've been looking at this and preparing long before they started. Knew China was going to pull this and started negotiations with S Korea, Vietnam and a couple others in Nov, 2017 about replacing China as the supplier.

They are not going to replace China as a supplier. When you are talking about the Chinese vs. Trump you are talking about men vs. boy (mentally) and Trump is not among the men.

You do realize that one of the reasons why China's growth has slowed recently is because 1) as China becomes more wealthy it just isn't cost effective to manufacture in China as it is in other, lesser developed countries and 2) China has been trying to fight off these smaller, cheaper competitor countries for the past decade now. China is never going to always be the low cost supplier for things, and that's been ongoing now for awhile. Trump's a buffoon, but playing tougher on trade with China is not necessarily a bad thing. Could really go either way, but is likely better than just blindly pursuing status quo.

[SDHornet]

That sounds like a bet! I think Trump gets the better of the Chinese. Levels the field.

By the way, the experts are already discussing the broken supply chains, which leads to establishing new ones...with other nations.

Yeah Ok. We'll see. We're talking about a country that has 1/5 of the world's population and a bigger GDP than the United States does.

Mexico is our biggest trade partner...

...and Trump already worked out a new (and better) deal with them for us...


...so China can go pound sand, they depend on us to buy all their cheap shit. They buy much less of our shit. Now please tell us how we don't have the stronger hand here?

[SDHornet]

And if the trade war ends with favorable Chinese concessions you’ll be sure to say it didn’t happen

It'll be hard to tell if that happens because you go on knowing Trump is going to claim things went well whether they did or not.

If the "mainstream media" say the trade war ends with favorable Chinese concessions I will believe it. I will not believe it based on Trump and/or his administration saying it.

phpBB [video]

[CID1990]

China has two major initiatives going on right now

If you want to understand them, a good source for info is the Nikkei Asian Review (US outlets as well as The Economist grossly misinterpret China - it is a cultural failing that has been biting us in the ass for literally a century now)

The Belt and Road project - Clitz already touched on this and its significance

The other one is the Made in China 2025 initiative

[Ivytalk]

China has two major initiatives going on right now

If you want to understand them, a good source for info is the Nikkei Asian Review (US outlets as well as The Economist grossly misinterpret China - it is a cultural failing that has been biting us in the ass for literally a century now)

The Belt and Road project - Clitz already touched on this and its significance

The other one is the Made in China 2025 initiative

Orientals have always been inscrutable

Except to each other

It’s what they do

[CID1990]

China has two major initiatives going on right now

If you want to understand them, a good source for info is the Nikkei Asian Review (US outlets as well as The Economist grossly misinterpret China - it is a cultural failing that has been biting us in the ass for literally a century now)

The Belt and Road project - Clitz already touched on this and its significance

The other one is the Made in China 2025 initiative

Orientals have always been inscrutable

Except to each other

It’s what they do

They can be easy to understand, culturally speaking. Their personal interactions are still largely Confucian in nature, and their collective actions as nations are too (see the 1979 incursion by China into Vietnam).

But Westerners must put aside our own millenia of developed cultural mores and ideas of honesty and integrity to understand them. Confucian cultures have their own versions of those same things but they take a different form (face, filial piety, etc). It is also why those cultures also fundamentally misunderstand us, as well.


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[Ivytalk]

Orientals have always been inscrutable

Except to each other

It’s what they do

They can be easy to understand, culturally speaking. Their personal interactions are still largely Confucian in nature, and their collective actions as nations are too (see the 1979 incursion by China into Vietnam).

But Westerners must put aside our own millenia of developed cultural mores and ideas of honesty and integrity to understand them. Confucian cultures have their own versions of those same things but they take a different form (face, filial piety, etc). It is also why those cultures also fundamentally misunderstand us, as well.


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I understand that. My Negotiation class last year included a segment on how to negotiate with Eastern cultures. Not easy: more indirection, more time-consuming, more frustrating for bottom-line-just-the-facts Western business types.

[Chizzang]

They can be easy to understand, culturally speaking. Their personal interactions are still largely Confucian in nature, and their collective actions as nations are too (see the 1979 incursion by China into Vietnam).

But Westerners must put aside our own millenia of developed cultural mores and ideas of honesty and integrity to understand them. Confucian cultures have their own versions of those same things but they take a different form (face, filial piety, etc). It is also why those cultures also fundamentally misunderstand us, as well.


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I understand that. My Negotiation class last year included a segment on how to negotiate with Eastern cultures. Not easy: more indirection, more time-consuming, more frustrating for bottom-line-just-the-facts Western business types.

Lying directly to people you see as beneath you...
is the part that modern western civilization doesn't grasp about China

It's what we used to do to Native Americans and South Americans en mas
but we always imagined (wrongly) that Asian cultures respected us
and they don't

They see us exactly as we saw Injuns and Mexicans during our expansion
as slightly less than human gullible idiots



Go into each negotiation understanding
1) They don't care what you want
2) They don't respect you
3) you are less than human
4) Don't take it personally

Start there and everything will make more sense

[BDKJMU]

Yeah Ok. We'll see. We're talking about a country that has 1/5 of the world's population and a bigger GDP than the United States does.

China's GDP is bigger than America's?

Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?

[UNI88]

I understand that. My Negotiation class last year included a segment on how to negotiate with Eastern cultures. Not easy: more indirection, more time-consuming, more frustrating for bottom-line-just-the-facts Western business types.

Lying directly to people you see as beneath you...
is the part that modern western civilization doesn't grasp about China

It's what we used to do to Native Americans and South Americans en mas
but we always imagined (wrongly) that Asian cultures respected us
and they don't

They see us exactly as we saw Injuns and Mexicans during our expansion
as slightly less than human gullible idiots



Go into each negotiation understanding
1) They don't care what you want
2) They don't respect you
3) you are less than human
4) Don't take it personally

Start there and everything will make more sense

5) be patient
6) focus on long-term objectives

I loved negotiating with the Chinese.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Ivytalk]

Lying directly to people you see as beneath you...
is the part that modern western civilization doesn't grasp about China

It's what we used to do to Native Americans and South Americans en mas
but we always imagined (wrongly) that Asian cultures respected us
and they don't

They see us exactly as we saw Injuns and Mexicans during our expansion
as slightly less than human gullible idiots



Go into each negotiation understanding
1) They don't care what you want
2) They don't respect you
3) you are less than human
4) Don't take it personally

Start there and everything will make more sense

5) be patient
6) focus on long-term objectives

I loved negotiating with the Chinese.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

7) You will always get fvcked at the end
8) Even if you get it in writing

Trust me, I represented several Chinese clients, and I withdrew from representing all but one.

[SeattleGriz]

5) be patient
6) focus on long-term objectives

I loved negotiating with the Chinese.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

7) You will always get fvcked at the end
8) Even if you get it in writing

Trust me, I represented several Chinese clients, and I withdrew from representing all but one.

I don't have much experience in dealing with the Chinese, but have met more than few Seattleites who expressed exactly what you have.

Do NOT trust them.

[CID1990]

I understand that. My Negotiation class last year included a segment on how to negotiate with Eastern cultures. Not easy: more indirection, more time-consuming, more frustrating for bottom-line-just-the-facts Western business types.

Lying directly to people you see as beneath you...
is the part that modern western civilization doesn't grasp about China

It's what we used to do to Native Americans and South Americans en mas
but we always imagined (wrongly) that Asian cultures respected us
and they don't

They see us exactly as we saw Injuns and Mexicans during our expansion
as slightly less than human gullible idiots



Go into each negotiation understanding
1) They don't care what you want
2) They don't respect you
3) you are less than human
4) Don't take it personally

Start there and everything will make more sense

#4 is the most important one

The first three will get me accused of “hate” and racism in our own culture - and the Japanese and Chinese are some of the biggest racists (by our own metric) on the planet

But it isn’t personal when one realizes that they treat each other exactly the same when dealing with other Chinese or Japanese outside their personal or business circles where they have face.

And back to Ivy’s comment - those little niceties and wasting time are extremely important because with every cup of tea (or beer), every round of small talk about golf, Las Vegas, sports cars, family, pastimes.... you are building face, you are making yourself more human (less gaijin, less farang, less laowai) in their eyes.

What we tend to misunderstand is that if a Westerner treats you like 1-3 above, we assume that it is due to deep, unchangeable bigotry and trying to break through that would be a waste of time. But in reality, all humans start out at those levels in the eyes of east Asians - even each other. But it is a rare case where there is not an opportunity to change the calculus - to raise face with your counterparts. Once that happens, then it CAN become personal. Face gained and maintained rarely goes away, and it is the foundation of business relationships.


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[Gil Dobie]

中国有很多好人

[SeattleGriz]

Lying directly to people you see as beneath you...
is the part that modern western civilization doesn't grasp about China

It's what we used to do to Native Americans and South Americans en mas
but we always imagined (wrongly) that Asian cultures respected us
and they don't

They see us exactly as we saw Injuns and Mexicans during our expansion
as slightly less than human gullible idiots



Go into each negotiation understanding
1) They don't care what you want
2) They don't respect you
3) you are less than human
4) Don't take it personally

Start there and everything will make more sense

#4 is the most important one

The first three will get me accused of “hate” and racism in our own culture - and the Japanese and Chinese are some of the biggest racists (by our own metric) on the planet

But it isn’t personal when one realizes that they treat each other exactly the same when dealing with other Chinese or Japanese outside their personal or business circles where they have face.

And back to Ivy’s comment - those little niceties and wasting time are extremely important because with every cup of tea (or beer), every round of small talk about golf, Las Vegas, sports cars, family, pastimes.... you are building face, you are making yourself more human (less gaijin, less farang, less laowai) in their eyes.

What we tend to misunderstand is that if a Westerner treats you like 1-3 above, we assume that it is due to deep, unchangeable bigotry and trying to break through that would be a waste of time. But in reality, all humans start out at those levels in the eyes of east Asians - even each other. But it is a rare case where there is not an opportunity to change the calculus - to raise face with your counterparts. Once that happens, then it CAN become personal. Face gained and maintained rarely goes away, and it is the foundation of business relationships.


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So you're saying Trump has good face?

MAGA

[UNI88]

#4 is the most important one

The first three will get me accused of “hate” and racism in our own culture - and the Japanese and Chinese are some of the biggest racists (by our own metric) on the planet

But it isn’t personal when one realizes that they treat each other exactly the same when dealing with other Chinese or Japanese outside their personal or business circles where they have face.

And back to Ivy’s comment - those little niceties and wasting time are extremely important because with every cup of tea (or beer), every round of small talk about golf, Las Vegas, sports cars, family, pastimes.... you are building face, you are making yourself more human (less gaijin, less farang, less laowai) in their eyes.

What we tend to misunderstand is that if a Westerner treats you like 1-3 above, we assume that it is due to deep, unchangeable bigotry and trying to break through that would be a waste of time. But in reality, all humans start out at those levels in the eyes of east Asians - even each other. But it is a rare case where there is not an opportunity to change the calculus - to raise face with your counterparts. Once that happens, then it CAN become personal. Face gained and maintained rarely goes away, and it is the foundation of business relationships.


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So you're saying Trump has good face?

MAGA

With Trump it's more about head than face and it's more about giving than having ...

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[CID1990]

#4 is the most important one

The first three will get me accused of “hate” and racism in our own culture - and the Japanese and Chinese are some of the biggest racists (by our own metric) on the planet

But it isn’t personal when one realizes that they treat each other exactly the same when dealing with other Chinese or Japanese outside their personal or business circles where they have face.

And back to Ivy’s comment - those little niceties and wasting time are extremely important because with every cup of tea (or beer), every round of small talk about golf, Las Vegas, sports cars, family, pastimes.... you are building face, you are making yourself more human (less gaijin, less farang, less laowai) in their eyes.

What we tend to misunderstand is that if a Westerner treats you like 1-3 above, we assume that it is due to deep, unchangeable bigotry and trying to break through that would be a waste of time. But in reality, all humans start out at those levels in the eyes of east Asians - even each other. But it is a rare case where there is not an opportunity to change the calculus - to raise face with your counterparts. Once that happens, then it CAN become personal. Face gained and maintained rarely goes away, and it is the foundation of business relationships.


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So you're saying Trump has good face?

MAGA

Face is neither good nor bad. Face comes in amounts - from none to a lot


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[mainejeff]

向我低头

[CID1990]

It is obvious when people use Google Translate.

It works poorly with tonal Asian languages. You guys basically are the info age versions of the teens in the 1980s who wore those tshirts with Kanji script that said things like, "I am an idiot" and "pound me in the butt"

[Gil Dobie]

It is obvious when people use Google Translate.

It works poorly with tonal Asian languages. You guys basically are the info age versions of the teens in the 1980s who wore those tshirts with Kanji script that said things like, "I am an idiot" and "pound me in the butt"

I'm impressed, a multilingual grammar nazi.

[CID1990]

It is obvious when people use Google Translate.

It works poorly with tonal Asian languages. You guys basically are the info age versions of the teens in the 1980s who wore those tshirts with Kanji script that said things like, "I am an idiot" and "pound me in the butt"

I'm impressed, a multilingual grammar nazi.

Only in Vietnamese, really

Here's how you can tell if someone used Google: re-translate it back to English, using Google. If it reads correctly and makes sense in English, then it was Google.

If it looks like this:

"Circle bell what customer wish to annoy clerk." (Ring bell for assistance) - then it is genuine.