But she didn’t come cheap.CAA Flagship wrote:I'm still in possession of some of that Japanese ****.Ivytalk wrote: OK. So as long as we keep getting flooded with cheap Chinese sh*t, whatever the Red Chunks do with our technology is OK. Gotcha. No existential threat here. Move along.
A generation or two ago, before WalMart, we were flooded with cheap Japanese sh*t. Remember that? But we adjusted without losing our intellectual property.
Chinese Trade War
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Re: Chinese Trade War
“I’m tired and done.” — 89Hen 3/27/22.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
They're just better businessmen than we are.CID1990 wrote:That horse is dead, JohnJohnStOnge wrote:
The big thing is that Chinese leaders can play the long game and US leaders cannot.
The answer is to acknowledge the advantages of their dictatorial system and then do nothing. That’s what you’re arguing for.
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Correlation =/= CausationCID1990 wrote:That horse is dead, JohnJohnStOnge wrote:
The big thing is that Chinese leaders can play the long game and US leaders cannot.
The answer is to acknowledge the advantages of their dictatorial system and then do nothing. That’s what you’re arguing for.
Them being better capitalists than us is not necessarily the result of their dictatorial system. Further study would be required to test that hypothesis.
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Chinese Trade War
houndawg wrote:Correlation =/= CausationCID1990 wrote:
That horse is dead, John
The answer is to acknowledge the advantages of their dictatorial system and then do nothing. That’s what you’re arguing for.
Them being better capitalists than us is not necessarily the result of their dictatorial system. Further study would be required to test that hypothesis.
Did you type that with a straight face?
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
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Re: Chinese Trade War
You think that they're better capitalists than us because of their dictatorial system..AZGrizFan wrote:houndawg wrote:
Correlation =/= Causation
Them being better capitalists than us is not necessarily the result of their dictatorial system. Further study would be required to test that hypothesis.
Did you type that with a straight face?
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Eliminates all those pesky rules and regulations that get in the way of pure capitalism.houndawg wrote:You think that they're better capitalists than us because of their dictatorial system..AZGrizFan wrote:
Did you type that with a straight face?
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Chinese Trade War
It is disingenuous to call China “capitalist” because it implies that everyone in China enjoys the free practice of capitalism. (Clitz knows this)
China’s government generates revenue through allowing capitalist freedoms to the Chinese elites (coincidentally also Party members or closely connected to them). They allow corporate ownership of nonstrategic industries.
However, all Chinese companies are ultimately state owned. The means of production are state owned. The Central Committee 100% picks the corporate winners and losers (there are no losers though.... there are well connected corporate officers who are either in favor or out of favor). Chinese companies still must get Party sign-off on all major corporate decisions.
The average Chinese citizen still very much lives in a Communist dictatorship. He lives where he is told based on his household registration. He cannot just up and move to a new province to look for work where pay is better. His wages are fixed by the state. There is no significant profit sharing.
Outside of a food cart or garment shop that generates less than about 10,000 dollars per year, he cannot start up a company that he owns, and if he does start one it will be ultimately State owned and cannot directly compete with other companies (think all those gaps are filled? Yes they are.)
China as a country engages in capitalistic practices and participates in global markets but they are most definitely a command economy, single party dictatorship. There are few to zero comparisons with free market capitalist systems alongside guarantees of personal liberties like what we are accustomed to in the West.
They don’t “do capitalism” better than we do because they don’t “do capitalism”.
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China’s government generates revenue through allowing capitalist freedoms to the Chinese elites (coincidentally also Party members or closely connected to them). They allow corporate ownership of nonstrategic industries.
However, all Chinese companies are ultimately state owned. The means of production are state owned. The Central Committee 100% picks the corporate winners and losers (there are no losers though.... there are well connected corporate officers who are either in favor or out of favor). Chinese companies still must get Party sign-off on all major corporate decisions.
The average Chinese citizen still very much lives in a Communist dictatorship. He lives where he is told based on his household registration. He cannot just up and move to a new province to look for work where pay is better. His wages are fixed by the state. There is no significant profit sharing.
Outside of a food cart or garment shop that generates less than about 10,000 dollars per year, he cannot start up a company that he owns, and if he does start one it will be ultimately State owned and cannot directly compete with other companies (think all those gaps are filled? Yes they are.)
China as a country engages in capitalistic practices and participates in global markets but they are most definitely a command economy, single party dictatorship. There are few to zero comparisons with free market capitalist systems alongside guarantees of personal liberties like what we are accustomed to in the West.
They don’t “do capitalism” better than we do because they don’t “do capitalism”.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
What?mainejeff2 wrote:Trump tweeting the Fed to lower rates again.
Remember the time Conks used to lambaste The Fed under Janet Yellen for constantly lowering rates?
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Re: Chinese Trade War
TrueAZGrizFan wrote:Eliminates all those pesky rules and regulations that get in the way of pure capitalism.houndawg wrote:
You think that they're better capitalists than us because of their dictatorial system..
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Regardless, Trump has shown "the rules" weren't really the rules. More than one way to accomplish what the US needs.houndawg wrote:TrueAZGrizFan wrote:
Eliminates all those pesky rules and regulations that get in the way of pure capitalism.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
They will win any trade war we choose to start with them.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
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Re: Chinese Trade War
They're not doing so hot in their current one.JohnStOnge wrote:They will win any trade war we choose to start with them.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
We know, JSOJohnStOnge wrote:They will win any trade war we choose to start with them.
You're in the "don't resist and don't make the Chinese mad" camp
Reminds me a bit of the "Don't rile the Soviets" crowd in the 1980s.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Indeed, I hear JSO is already taking classes in Mandarin in order to make his assimilation easier.CID1990 wrote:We know, JSOJohnStOnge wrote:They will win any trade war we choose to start with them.
You're in the "don't resist and don't make the Chinese mad" camp
Reminds me a bit of the "Don't rile the Soviets" crowd in the 1980s.
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
Or Neville Chamberlain.CID1990 wrote:We know, JSOJohnStOnge wrote:They will win any trade war we choose to start with them.
You're in the "don't resist and don't make the Chinese mad" camp
Reminds me a bit of the "Don't rile the Soviets" crowd in the 1980s.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Yes they are. The have always been and continue to be in the position of advantage. Trump is doing his "move dirt to the other side of the road to make people think something is going on" thing with you. He's not beating the Chinese.SeattleGriz wrote:They're not doing so hot in their current one.JohnStOnge wrote:They will win any trade war we choose to start with them.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came
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Re: Chinese Trade War
I'm just dealing with reality. It is a totalitarian regime populated by intelligent people that does not have to worry about political consequences dealing with a US President who is a dumbass and who will also be out of power in no more than a little over 5 years and possibly a little over 1 year. And it's in the context of a situation in which the US population has become accustomed to cheap Chinese goods.CID1990 wrote:We know, JSOJohnStOnge wrote:They will win any trade war we choose to start with them.
You're in the "don't resist and don't make the Chinese mad" camp
Reminds me a bit of the "Don't rile the Soviets" crowd in the 1980s.
How anybody would think Trump's approach to this...where he apparently thinks he's in the position of advantage...is beyond me.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came
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Re: Chinese Trade War
We have to resist the Chinese on multiple fronts. Tariffs are a part of that formula. Why you think we shouldn't be resisting China's aggressive predatory practices with every tool in the box just because of who the President is .... is beyond meJohnStOnge wrote:I'm just dealing with reality. It is a totalitarian regime populated by intelligent people that does not have to worry about political consequences dealing with a US President who is a dumbass and who will also be out of power in no more than a little over 5 years and possibly a little over 1 year. And it's in the context of a situation in which the US population has become accustomed to cheap Chinese goods.CID1990 wrote:
We know, JSO
You're in the "don't resist and don't make the Chinese mad" camp
Reminds me a bit of the "Don't rile the Soviets" crowd in the 1980s.
How anybody would think Trump's approach to this...where he apparently thinks he's in the position of advantage...is beyond me.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Then its disingenuous to call the US "capitalist" too, if thatt implies that everyone in the US enjoys the free practice of capitalism. Only a very small number of Americans really have any chance to own the means of production.CID1990 wrote:It is disingenuous to call China “capitalist” because it implies that everyone in China enjoys the free practice of capitalism. (Clitz knows this)
China’s government generates revenue through allowing capitalist freedoms to the Chinese elites (coincidentally also Party members or closely connected to them). They allow corporate ownership of nonstrategic industries.
However, all Chinese companies are ultimately state owned. The means of production are state owned. The Central Committee 100% picks the corporate winners and losers (there are no losers though.... there are well connected corporate officers who are either in favor or out of favor). Chinese companies still must get Party sign-off on all major corporate decisions.
The average Chinese citizen still very much lives in a Communist dictatorship. He lives where he is told based on his household registration. He cannot just up and move to a new province to look for work where pay is better. His wages are fixed by the state. There is no significant profit sharing.
Outside of a food cart or garment shop that generates less than about 10,000 dollars per year, he cannot start up a company that he owns, and if he does start one it will be ultimately State owned and cannot directly compete with other companies (think all those gaps are filled? Yes they are.)
China as a country engages in capitalistic practices and participates in global markets but they are most definitely a command economy, single party dictatorship. There are few to zero comparisons with free market capitalist systems alongside guarantees of personal liberties like what we are accustomed to in the West.
They don’t “do capitalism” better than we do because they don’t “do capitalism”.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
JohnStOnge wrote:I'm just dealing with reality.CID1990 wrote:
We know, JSO
You're in the "don't resist and don't make the Chinese mad" camp
Reminds me a bit of the "Don't rile the Soviets" crowd in the 1980s.
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
it's easy to own a piece of production. Just go to Schwab or something similar and buy shares of an S&P 500 index fund.houndawg wrote:Then its disingenuous to call the US "capitalist" too, if thatt implies that everyone in the US enjoys the free practice of capitalism. Only a very small number of Americans really have any chance to own the means of production.CID1990 wrote:It is disingenuous to call China “capitalist” because it implies that everyone in China enjoys the free practice of capitalism. (Clitz knows this)
China’s government generates revenue through allowing capitalist freedoms to the Chinese elites (coincidentally also Party members or closely connected to them). They allow corporate ownership of nonstrategic industries.
However, all Chinese companies are ultimately state owned. The means of production are state owned. The Central Committee 100% picks the corporate winners and losers (there are no losers though.... there are well connected corporate officers who are either in favor or out of favor). Chinese companies still must get Party sign-off on all major corporate decisions.
The average Chinese citizen still very much lives in a Communist dictatorship. He lives where he is told based on his household registration. He cannot just up and move to a new province to look for work where pay is better. His wages are fixed by the state. There is no significant profit sharing.
Outside of a food cart or garment shop that generates less than about 10,000 dollars per year, he cannot start up a company that he owns, and if he does start one it will be ultimately State owned and cannot directly compete with other companies (think all those gaps are filled? Yes they are.)
China as a country engages in capitalistic practices and participates in global markets but they are most definitely a command economy, single party dictatorship. There are few to zero comparisons with free market capitalist systems alongside guarantees of personal liberties like what we are accustomed to in the West.
They don’t “do capitalism” better than we do because they don’t “do capitalism”.
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
UNI88 wrote:it's easy to own a piece of production. Just go to Schwab or something similar and buy shares of an S&P 500 index fund.houndawg wrote:
Then its disingenuous to call the US "capitalist" too, if thatt implies that everyone in the US enjoys the free practice of capitalism. Only a very small number of Americans really have any chance to own the means of production.
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So can anyone in China
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Well, that and the fact that JSO can't see that China, trade war or not, is not in some invincible position economically. They are already dealing with the negative impact of the state being the owner of so much in the economy that the inefficient parts of the economy don't get removed as they would in a more open system, they are already dealing with significant cuts in their economic growth when they are absolutely dependent on growing far faster than they are currently, they are already dealing with no longer being the low cost manufacturer of choice, as there are plenty of other developing countries that have already stolen significant business from China, and they are also dealing with the difficulty of still being vastly behind in terms of overall technological adoption in all parts of their country compared to most Western nations. There is no absolute certainty in any shape or form that China will be the dominant economic country in the years, or century, to come. I'm not sure there's even a moderate certainty of that. JSO's knowledge of economics is his weak spot - it's like Chizzy on things not related to Comcast.CID1990 wrote:We have to resist the Chinese on multiple fronts. Tariffs are a part of that formula. Why you think we shouldn't be resisting China's aggressive predatory practices with every tool in the box just because of who the President is .... is beyond meJohnStOnge wrote:
I'm just dealing with reality. It is a totalitarian regime populated by intelligent people that does not have to worry about political consequences dealing with a US President who is a dumbass and who will also be out of power in no more than a little over 5 years and possibly a little over 1 year. And it's in the context of a situation in which the US population has become accustomed to cheap Chinese goods.
How anybody would think Trump's approach to this...where he apparently thinks he's in the position of advantage...is beyond me.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
No, but I do remember the "ancient Chinese secret" tagline in those commercials for laundry detergent.mainejeff2 wrote:Me Chinese. Me play joke. Me put pee-pee in your Coke.
Anyone remember that one?
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