Mexican Tariffs

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Mexican Tariffs

Postby UNI88 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:22 am

JohnStOnge wrote:
UNI88 wrote:
I know Trump is a con man. But I'm also able to be intellectually honest and admit he's done some good things and had positive accomplishments.

You focus on quantitative evidence and ignore qualitative evidence.


First I must say that I woke up on November 9, 2016, thinking the economy was going to suffer from Trump being elected. I thought, for example, that people would flee the stock market because an unstable, mentally ill person was going to be in that position. I did not think people would want to bet on the future under that circumstance and that they would try to cut their losses. And I thought that if he launched into the protectionist economic plans that would hurt the economy.

The data do not suggest that happened so I was wrong. I have no problem saying that.

I do focus on quantitative evidence and I think that if someone is going to claim they've improved something they need to be able to measure that improvement. I think there are instances in which quantitative assessment is not needed. If you're walking through Chicago, you see someone shoot someone else, and the someone else dies you don't need quantitative analysis to say getting shot resulted in death. But something like saying a President caused a change in the economy is different. In my opinion you can never show cause and effect. And if one is going to say that there is even suggestion of cause and effect one needs to, or SHOULD need to, show that there is evidence in the economic data of a change beyond the variation that has been occurring in the recent past.


John, there you go moving the goalposts back to where you feel comfortable. The argument isn't that the economy got better under Trump compared to Obama (although in types of jobs created I would argue that it did) but that Trump's "accomplishment" was to keep the economy chugging along despite severe headwinds that Obama didn't face. You can't prove/disprove the headwinds with statistics so you ignore it and argue against something you can use statistics against.

We're in the midst of what I believe is the 2nd longest economic expansion in US history. It might make it to #1 before it ends. That is significant.

On my type of jobs comment. Slightly more jobs were created at the end of Obama's presidency than at the start of Trump's but look at the type of jobs created. More government jobs were created under Obama while more manufacturing and other private sector jobs were created under Trump. I believe that private sector jobs are much more valuable to the economy than government jobs.

The economy isn't as simple as numbers that give you a line on a graph. There are a myriad of variables and factors that impact it. How well it is doing depends on your perspective and priorities.

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Last edited by UNI88 on Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mexican Tariffs

Postby CID1990 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:59 am

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
You think it’s wrong for Trump to use a tariff threat - check

That’s purely “because Trump”, John.

There’s no other reason for you to be against using a financial lever in negotiations - we’ve been doing it since we’ve been a country. Only now are you against it.


If we have ever used financial levers in an attempt to change another country's practice with respect to who it allows to enter it I am not aware of it happening. This is not using economic sanctions to, say, pressure Iran into reducing support for Islamic insurgents outside of its borders. This is telling a sovereign nation that it cannot choose to allow people into its jurisdiction.


Nice cherry picking, but that’s not what I’m talking about

For starters, Mexico has agreed to accept back asylum applicants while they await a decision on their claims - thats a BIG one. El Salvador and Honduras do something similar with deportees because - wait for it - we threaten them with a number of things , including less monetary development aid (financial lever), ending TPS (financial lever) and remittances (financial lever).

As for using those levers with other countries on the very narrow subject you mentioned, I’ll just ask you this - what other countries could that even remotely apply to? We share borders with Mexico and Canada. So yes, this particular issue is unique to Mexico.

When I refer to using financial levers, I mean IN GENERAL when it comes to diplomacy ... to affect the behaviors of other countries. Somehow I think you know that but you are just intentionally obfuscating


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Re: Mexican Tariffs

Postby SDHornet » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:12 pm

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:
SDHornet wrote:So another Trump win?

Wonderful. 8-)


Trump did win AGAIN but lets face it Mexico will fuck this up worse than their country. Even if Mexico tries they will only do it for 5 more years of the Trump presidency then they will resort back to the same old shit while the next president wont have the balls to do what Trump did.

Agree, but in the mean time... wheeeeeeee!!!

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Re: Mexican Tariffs

Postby JohnStOnge » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:19 pm

CID1990 wrote:
As for using those levers with other countries on the very narrow subject you mentioned, I’ll just ask you this - what other countries could that even remotely apply to? We share borders with Mexico and Canada. So yes, this particular issue is unique to Mexico.

When I refer to using financial levers, I mean IN GENERAL when it comes to diplomacy ... to affect the behaviors of other countries. Somehow I think you know that but you are just intentionally obfuscating


It's not unique to Mexico. It's a general matter. We pressured another country with respect to who they allow into their country. Yes, I understand that our concern is about Mexico in particular. But the general issue is broader. We have no legitimate right to tell other countries that they can't allow people into their country.
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Re: Mexican Tariffs

Postby BDKJMU » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:30 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
As for using those levers with other countries on the very narrow subject you mentioned, I’ll just ask you this - what other countries could that even remotely apply to? We share borders with Mexico and Canada. So yes, this particular issue is unique to Mexico.

When I refer to using financial levers, I mean IN GENERAL when it comes to diplomacy ... to affect the behaviors of other countries. Somehow I think you know that but you are just intentionally obfuscating


It's not unique to Mexico. It's a general matter. We pressured another country with respect to who they allow into their country. Yes, I understand that our concern is about Mexico in particular. But the general issue is broader. We have no legitimate right to tell other countries that they can't allow people into their country.

Wrong. When that country is allowing hundreds of thousands of people to freely transit their country in order to enter the US, we have every legitimate right to tell them to not allow those people to freely transit their country in order to enter the US.

If hundreds of thousands of people were being allowed to freely cross the US southern border, freely transit through the US and freely cross into Canada, the Canadian government would have every right to insist that the US put an end to it by whatever means available.
Last edited by BDKJMU on Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mexican Tariffs

Postby CID1990 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:53 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
As for using those levers with other countries on the very narrow subject you mentioned, I’ll just ask you this - what other countries could that even remotely apply to? We share borders with Mexico and Canada. So yes, this particular issue is unique to Mexico.

When I refer to using financial levers, I mean IN GENERAL when it comes to diplomacy ... to affect the behaviors of other countries. Somehow I think you know that but you are just intentionally obfuscating


It's not unique to Mexico. It's a general matter. We pressured another country with respect to who they allow into their country. Yes, I understand that our concern is about Mexico in particular. But the general issue is broader. We have no legitimate right to tell other countries that they can't allow people into their country.


You don’t even know what you’re arguing, John

Like I said before - we aren’t telling other countries who they can and cannot allow into their countries. Mexico AGREED that they will be a better neighbor to us by helping to squeeze down the border crisis. Part of that formula means actually enforcing their own immigration laws, which they have agreed to do.

And it absolutely is unique to Mexico. Here’s a list of countries... you tell ME which ones whose border controls we give a sh1t about:

Mexico
Canada
Everyfuckingbody else


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Re: Mexican Tariffs

Postby Ibanez » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:36 am

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
You think it’s wrong for Trump to use a tariff threat - check

That’s purely “because Trump”, John.

There’s no other reason for you to be against using a financial lever in negotiations - we’ve been doing it since we’ve been a country. Only now are you against it.


If we have ever used financial levers in an attempt to change another country's practice with respect to who it allows to enter it I am not aware of it happening. This is not using economic sanctions to, say, pressure Iran into reducing support for Islamic insurgents outside of its borders. This is telling a sovereign nation that it cannot choose to allow people into its jurisdiction.

You’re just being ignorant and obtuse. We’ve been telling sovereign nations what to do for a long time.


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Re: Mexican Tariffs

Postby CAA Flagship » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:13 am

JohnStOnge wrote:
It's not unique to Mexico.

Correct. The same goes for Canada if the Alaskans try to enter the US from the north. :coffee:

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Re: RE: Re: Mexican Tariffs

Postby ALPHAGRIZ1 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:19 am

JohnStOnge wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
As for using those levers with other countries on the very narrow subject you mentioned, I’ll just ask you this - what other countries could that even remotely apply to? We share borders with Mexico and Canada. So yes, this particular issue is unique to Mexico.

When I refer to using financial levers, I mean IN GENERAL when it comes to diplomacy ... to affect the behaviors of other countries. Somehow I think you know that but you are just intentionally obfuscating


It's not unique to Mexico. It's a general matter. We pressured another country with respect to who they allow into their country. Yes, I understand that our concern is about Mexico in particular. But the general issue is broader. We have no legitimate right to tell other countries that they can't allow people into their country.
The fuck we dont

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Re: RE: Re: Mexican Tariffs

Postby Chizzang » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:04 am

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
It's not unique to Mexico. It's a general matter. We pressured another country with respect to who they allow into their country. Yes, I understand that our concern is about Mexico in particular. But the general issue is broader. We have no legitimate right to tell other countries that they can't allow people into their country.

The fuck we dont


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